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EG launch $10,000 Master's Cup Series League - Page 25

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1006 CommentsPost a Reply
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{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 11:23:21
May 02 2011 11:22 GMT
#481
I think its stupid to even invite a clan like TL to stuff like this if the rules are like that cause lets be honest - games will not be fair due to blizzards retarded battle.net latency shit. The TSL solution might ve advantages over the EG solution but its still crap and far away from what would be considered "good conditions".

On a sidenote i find it hilarious what jinro said 1 month ago bout TSL lag for koreans on US server and now this~ the perspective of a man always changes when he is involved i guess

*edit*

sad to not see empire invited, with their new invites i think they would be a good invite.
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
May 02 2011 11:24 GMT
#482
On May 02 2011 19:34 Go0g3n wrote:
I think it's a bit silly. TL set and met a pretty high standard when it comes to hosting tournaments and making cross-realm gameplay as fair and lag-free as possible, but you can't expect everyone to follow, especially for team competitions.

I'm, however surprised, that, Liquid declined to participate in somewhat unfavorable conditions, they only would've applied to EU vs KOR games, and half of TL lineup (Ret, TLO, Tyler) would've been able to play those comfortably.



Well, Huk and Jinro basically declined the NASL because of the playing conditions (lag and time concerns) so I don't take it as any surprise they turn down a team event in NA when have half the team in Korea.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
May 02 2011 11:24 GMT
#483
On May 02 2011 20:18 deL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 20:11 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On May 02 2011 19:53 hinnolinn wrote:
On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-

I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate.

... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then?

Option 1: Everyone plays on NA
Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA

How is this not more fair?

I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair?

Why?

On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical...

Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4.

Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt.

I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it.


Okay, so I've been pondering on this whole question for a few hours now. I believe at the current state of the game this is NOT the most objectively fair system. The most objectively fair system would be to play all games on the server that minimized the DIFFERENCE between player latencies.

This is along the same reasoning why all KR-EU matches are played on the US server. The latencies are not equal, but both players have at least a reasonable ability to play the game, rather then each player having outrageous latencies when playing on the opposing players home server.

I don't know the answer to the question of which server is best for each continental match-up, except that US seems best for KR-EU. But if you can figure it out, that seems like the best server to play all games involving those countries on.

Well I would be open to trying Sea as a middle ground in future events.

In general, I think SEA would have a favourable ping for Korea over the others, and be quite poor for both EU and NA participants. Maybe only as bad as NA-EU though so I guess it's worth a shot, it gets lonely on SEA sometimes :3

As soon as someone mentioned SEA i knew you would fly into this thread haha i just had this feeling

On the other hand, this is going to be pretty cool; I hope the teams don't underestimate the 2v2 quality because that is what won EG the machinima - Ax and Strife looked really awesome in that tournament, and will be really hard to stop.

Should be interesting to see how sixjax do.. very interesting.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
May 02 2011 11:25 GMT
#484
On May 02 2011 20:22 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
I think its stupid to even invite a clan like TL to stuff like this if the rules are like that cause lets be honest - games will not be fair due to blizzards retarded battle.net latency shit. The TSL solution might ve advantages over the EG solution but its still crap and far away from what would be considered "good conditions".

On a sidenote i find it hilarious what jinro said 1 month ago bout TSL lag for koreans on US server and now this~ the perspective of a man always changes when he is involved i guess

*edit*

sad to not see empire invited, with their new invites i think they would be a good invite.


Please read Jinro's post in this thread before you start making claims about his opinions that he doesn't represent.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 11:28:11
May 02 2011 11:26 GMT
#485
On May 02 2011 20:22 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
I think its stupid to even invite a clan like TL to stuff like this if the rules are like that cause lets be honest - games will not be fair due to blizzards retarded battle.net latency shit. The TSL solution might ve advantages over the EG solution but its still crap and far away from what would be considered "good conditions".

On a sidenote i find it hilarious what jinro said 1 month ago bout TSL lag for koreans on US server and now this~ the perspective of a man always changes when he is involved i guess

*edit*

sad to not see empire invited, with their new invites i think they would be a good invite.

......

How many times do I have to address this? I am asking for the SAME conditions as TSL, which I PLAYED IN.

I played TSL FROM Korea. I am asking for the same TSL conditions that I defended then.

Its seriously fucking annoying the way people try to twist it like that.

On May 02 2011 20:24 nihlon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 19:34 Go0g3n wrote:
I think it's a bit silly. TL set and met a pretty high standard when it comes to hosting tournaments and making cross-realm gameplay as fair and lag-free as possible, but you can't expect everyone to follow, especially for team competitions.

I'm, however surprised, that, Liquid declined to participate in somewhat unfavorable conditions, they only would've applied to EU vs KOR games, and half of TL lineup (Ret, TLO, Tyler) would've been able to play those comfortably.



Well, Huk and Jinro basically declined the NASL because of the playing conditions (lag and time concerns) so I don't take it as any surprise they turn down a team event in NA when have half the team in Korea.

It was mostly the time for me.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
cuppatea
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1401 Posts
May 02 2011 11:35 GMT
#486
On May 02 2011 20:05 eGo.SiGns wrote:
I really dont understand all this hatred towards implementing 2vs2s.

Its just 1 game, while 4 games are still 1vs1.
If your teams is that much better and you win all 1vs1, you dont even need those 2vs2 anyway - even though i would assume they will play out all 5 games, at least thats what happens normally - .

Yeah, they may be some imbalances in 2on2 because blizzard cant balance 2vs2 in the same way they do 1vs1, but all those players know these imbalances and can react accordingly.

Their is no strategy in 2on2 thats completly unbeatable , even though it may force you to pit 2 players together just because you want 2 specific races playing together.

And plz, dont start with stuff like "2v2 is boring and unskilled", there are many people out there, that enjoy watching a nice 2v2 game, and if it were that unskilled, how come the same players always seem to shine in these team competitions?

IMO it actually requires more skills, because the whole aspect of working together with your partner is completly new. The skills as such may not have the same "deepth" , but you obviously need new and other skills additionally to your outstanding micro,marco, observational skills.

Greetings,

SiGns


With 2v2's making up a quarter of the games prior to the ace match a team only needs to win 1 out of 3 1v1's to take it there. A team could have only 1 player who wins a 1v1 all season and still win this league.

In fact EG won the MRI almost entirely through 2v2's and Idra ace matches, despite getting owned in the regular 1v1 portion almost every week (I wonder if this factored into EG's decision to include 2v2, since they're probably going to get a free point from it every match?).

The reason 2v2 is such a terrible format, though, is because we aren't going to see dedicated 2v2 teams facing each other, we're just going to see a bunch of 1v1 players playing in 2v2's, with the teams that practice very little for it (probably Axslav/Strifecro) beating the teams that don't practice at all (almost everyone else). They might as well have 3 SC2 1v1's and then a game of Street Fighter 4 to decide the 4th point.
furcifer
Profile Joined May 2011
Norway54 Posts
May 02 2011 11:35 GMT
#487
In my opinion, declining the invitation because you don't agree with the way they decided to run this league seems completely reasonable to me.

But from where I sit it doesn't look like you declined because of the rules of the tournament but more for the reason that EG wouldn't change them for your 3(?) players, living in Korea and that to me doesnt look like taking a stand at all, it looks more like arrogance.
sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 11:37:06
May 02 2011 11:36 GMT
#488
I just think it's funny how in both ventures that InControl has been involved in, there were rules that crippled TeamLiquid. First the 5 player limit per team in NASL, and now eliminating the KR server in the masters cup? Sounds like someone's scared to me
halvorg
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Norway717 Posts
May 02 2011 11:37 GMT
#489
On May 02 2011 20:35 furcifer wrote:
In my opinion, declining the invitation because you don't agree with the way they decided to run this league seems completely reasonable to me.

But from where I sit it doesn't look like you declined because of the rules of the tournament but more for the reason that EG wouldn't change them for your 3(?) players, living in Korea and that to me doesnt look like taking a stand at all, it looks more like arrogance.


Uhhh, whats the difference?
sc2olorin
Profile Joined November 2010
292 Posts
May 02 2011 11:40 GMT
#490
On May 02 2011 14:23 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
me and ret would destroy 2v2. it seems very strange that the people behind this team league keep talking about the players in kr. we are only 3 so thats not the major problem. the problem is that NA is starting to become the place to play at when it comes to leagues. thats just not the right move especially when most us players have moved to the eu server anyway.

That may be true now, but if EG's main goal is to grow the NA scene (which it certainly seems to be), then their decision seems to be absolutely the right move.
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
May 02 2011 11:41 GMT
#491
On May 02 2011 20:35 cuppatea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 20:05 eGo.SiGns wrote:
I really dont understand all this hatred towards implementing 2vs2s.

Its just 1 game, while 4 games are still 1vs1.
If your teams is that much better and you win all 1vs1, you dont even need those 2vs2 anyway - even though i would assume they will play out all 5 games, at least thats what happens normally - .

Yeah, they may be some imbalances in 2on2 because blizzard cant balance 2vs2 in the same way they do 1vs1, but all those players know these imbalances and can react accordingly.

Their is no strategy in 2on2 thats completly unbeatable , even though it may force you to pit 2 players together just because you want 2 specific races playing together.

And plz, dont start with stuff like "2v2 is boring and unskilled", there are many people out there, that enjoy watching a nice 2v2 game, and if it were that unskilled, how come the same players always seem to shine in these team competitions?

IMO it actually requires more skills, because the whole aspect of working together with your partner is completly new. The skills as such may not have the same "deepth" , but you obviously need new and other skills additionally to your outstanding micro,marco, observational skills.

Greetings,

SiGns


With 2v2's making up a quarter of the games prior to the ace match a team only needs to win 1 out of 3 1v1's to take it there. A team could have only 1 player who wins a 1v1 all season and still win this league.

In fact EG won the MRI almost entirely through 2v2's and Idra ace matches, despite getting owned in the regular 1v1 portion almost every week (I wonder if this factored into EG's decision to include 2v2, since they're probably going to get a free point from it every match?).

The reason 2v2 is such a terrible format, though, is because we aren't going to see dedicated 2v2 teams facing each other, we're just going to see a bunch of 1v1 players playing in 2v2's, with the teams that practice very little for it (probably Axslav/Strifecro) beating the teams that don't practice at all (almost everyone else). They might as well have 3 SC2 1v1's and then a game of Street Fighter 4 to decide the 4th point.


Horrible comparison, Micro and macro still come into play along with a ton of strategy. I think the only mirror team they should take out is ZZ. I think it adds some extra flair and a funny aspect to it. If people hate it that much, I'd rather it have a serious team format, and 2v2 for a 1k prizepool or something just for enjoyment of people who like that aspect of the game.
NaNiwa|IdrA|HuK|iNcontroL|Jinro|NonY|Day[9]|PuMa|HerO|MMA|NesTea|NaDa|Boxer|Ryung|
Zechs
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom321 Posts
May 02 2011 11:42 GMT
#492
Not happy with teams hosting their own tournaments but otherwise this seems awesome.
Esports and stuff: zechleton.tumblr.com
Stuv
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Netherlands942 Posts
May 02 2011 11:42 GMT
#493
I think both sides have said valid points and there is a stale-mate situation. Right now people are recycling old arguments. TL mods would be wise to force people to post on the tournament itself and not the TL-EG discussion. Unnecessary flames.

And to be on-topic: The 2vs2 really excites me, brings a new dimension into competitive team-play.
fabulously
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway724 Posts
May 02 2011 11:44 GMT
#494
Really excited to watch this teamleague. So many great teams competing, happy to see 2v2 is included. Kudos to EG for setting it up!

Gogo ROOT!
Welcome back ROOT-gaming - you were never forgotten <3
robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
May 02 2011 11:45 GMT
#495
id rather see 4th 1v1 than a 2v2
imweakless
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
757 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 11:52:14
May 02 2011 11:51 GMT
#496
it saddens me not see Empire in the invites..
i think they are better than sixjax and mym .. 2v2 is pretty exciting but i had a bad felling that it will not
live to its hype
KMK,Qri,GsD#1, UEE,stork jangbi for life!
Ultramus
Profile Joined June 2010
United States319 Posts
May 02 2011 11:52 GMT
#497
The fact that this thread is still going on and people are being goaded by TL players is seriously disappointing. All that can be said on the subject has been exhausted. For TL to omit participation by 3 of their players being forced to play 2-3 games on NA instead of 1-2 per series in the instance cross server was implemented, is that REALLY worth losing the opportunity to play in a prestigious tournament? Is it worth disallowing the players not in KR that are on the team the opportunity to play under desirable(or at least not adverse) conditions? I really, really feel like this is absolutely the worst move TL could make.

I mean have we gotten so spoiled that just the opportunity to participate in a league with a large prize pool so common that you can overlook it just because it puts a percentage of your players at a disadvantage?

Where is the sense of self sacrifice for the team? Is it so impossible for 3 members of the team to experience lag to allow the other members to play, I mean it's TL's prerogative who they sent out to play anyways and they could limit the disadvantage that way.

To attack the organizers is to insult the very invite they received in the first place. If you decline to play then do so respectfully.
Baking is like science for hungry people
Karma`
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom13 Posts
May 02 2011 11:54 GMT
#498
2v2 very interesting, coming into SC2 I've not seen any real 2v2 games so I'm looking forward to this, it's a shame that team liquid are not apart of it though, i'd like to see more of them
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
May 02 2011 11:55 GMT
#499
On May 02 2011 14:23 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
me and ret would destroy 2v2. it seems very strange that the people behind this team league keep talking about the players in kr. we are only 3 so thats not the major problem. the problem is that NA is starting to become the place to play at when it comes to leagues. thats just not the right move especially when most us players have moved to the eu server anyway.

Why is that a bad move? Is that not the point though? To make it possible to play entirely on NA and make a good living?
The long term goal would be for everyone to be able to make a name for themselves in their own regions and then join up occasionally for "best of the world" tournaments.

I'd also really like to see you back up the claim that Ret and yourself would dominate in 2v2. Shame we won't get to see that.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
SnapCall
Profile Joined December 2010
94 Posts
May 02 2011 11:57 GMT
#500
On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)

EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.

Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?

A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler.


i'm not sure whether you think the request from TL is unreasonable, because the other teams would have decreased chances of winning vs TL or because of the inconvenience of switching servers.

in either case i don't see why it matters how many players are playing from korea.
if half the players are from korea, almost every game has to be played on altering servers and alot of players are affected by it.
if only a small percentage of players is in korea, most games aren't affected at all.
what im trying to say is, the lesser korean players are involved the lesser players have to alter servers/inconvenience is caused.

think about the last EG tournament, where the winner of the "normal tournament" played idra for an extra price.
if i recall correctly, everyone playing that weekend, excluding idra(who was still in korea back then), was from NA/EU and every game, excluding the one with idra, was played on NA.
for the game vs idra however there was some kind of special rule. im not 100% sure on that, but i think all games were played on NA and idra got to choose all maps, regardless of who won the map before.
do you think that was a an "unreasonable exception" too?
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