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I really don't get why TL is getting so much hate in this situation. Their solution is CLEARLY more fair for the teams involved as a whole. There is a reason why playoff series for most major sports (except sports like football obviously) alternates between cities.
I know why EG doesn't want to accomodate TL. There is more hassle for them obviously, but people make it sound like all 7 other teams would be affected negatively by server change, when in fact only NA players will be affected negatively. teams are NA based and I can only think of a couple of other players that are in NA (SeleCT and SJTerran).
Every team/player outside of NA can only be affected positively by server change
This means an overwhelming majority of the players involved in the league benefit from having server change, and WOULD NOT have to practice on other servers.
Now people are saying that it's unfair that opposing teams have to practice for more servers now. I don't see how it's unfair when TL practices on the same amount of servers. NA to EU, from what I gather, has somewhat negligible lag. That means people really ONLY have to practice for latency on one server, NA to KR and vice-versa.
Now obviously the NA players don't want this. Why would they want to have lag for half the games when they can be lag free for all of the games. Yet that's where the whole fairness thing comes in play. People ask why other teams have to accommodate TL, but why are team EG and ROOT walking into this league already with a slight advantage over the other teams?
Bottom line is this is EG's league and they would rather go the easy route and make sure their players are in the most optimal conditions. Which I do understand. But Incontrol and many others make it sound as if TL is being a diva with unreasonable demands that would be a hassle for the rest of the league. Realistically it is only "unfavorable" for a minority portion of the league and only unfavorable relatively to playing only on NA, when it is actually more fair for the league as a whole.
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On May 02 2011 18:32 Klive5ive wrote:
TL really needs to drop this; it's getting really old.
Yes this is the best SC2 website by far but that doesn't give you the right to dictate to everyone what they should do with their tournaments and walk around with this ridiculous air of superiority.
The fact that the players aren't even performing makes it even worse.
Maybe if they were capable of dropping their ego down a few notches they might be able to learn a few things from other players and actually win stuff.
What exactly is getting old?
They aren't dictating anything here, only voicing their opinion on the tournament format. A tournament that they have no obligation to participate in.
And I don't see how you last paragraph have anything to do with this matter. As a poster above me said, take you own advice in your signature.
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On May 02 2011 18:36 BrahCJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:32 Klive5ive wrote:
TL really needs to drop this; it's getting really old.
Yes this is the best SC2 website by far but that doesn't give you the right to dictate to everyone what they should do with their tournaments and walk around with this ridiculous air of superiority.
The fact that the players aren't even performing makes it even worse.
Maybe if they were capable of dropping their ego down a few notches they might be able to learn a few things from other players and actually win stuff. I feel like 20 pages of this is enough discussion... There doesn't need to be any more fuel on this fire, if you ask me. Requesting this thread is remade, all has been said + done.
Whatever you "feel" is quite irrelevant.
Its an ongoing discussion, that is what threads and forums are for. If you dont want to know about it i would rather suggest leaving the thread and finding another instead of saying "this should be closed". If you dont want to participate thats fine, but saying that everybody else shouldnt is folly.
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Aside from all the who is right, who is wrong discussion going on ( the format's been set, neither party is gonna admit their mistakes - if any // considerations kept in mind for next year), I do have 1 question I'm surprised noone else posted yet:
Why didnt TL just send Ret, TLO and Tyler?
Must admit, havent seen Tyler play yet, but I know Ret and TLO (and prolly Tyler as well) would make for very competitive play, with an equal chance of winning the league as anyone.
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I think Tyler opened this up as a flame war. I found that very disappointing.
In general I like to see liquid compete in leagues, but I think it was the right decision for them to decline if they don't feel like they can handle the lag situation. I'm disappointed to see so many liquid players complaining about this.
If Liquid knows how to run a better team starleague stop telling us that you know how and run your own.
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On May 02 2011 18:57 Proko wrote:
I think Tyler opened this up as a flame war. I found that very disappointing.
In general I like to see liquid compete in leagues, but I think it was the right decision for them to decline if they don't feel like they can handle the lag situation. I'm disappointed to see so many liquid players complaining about this.
If Liquid knows how to run a better team starleague stop telling us that you know how and run your own.
Yeah this is how see it too.
Respect to HotBid for trying to bring this back to be reasonable but this is Starcraft, drama always wins in the end!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 18:32 Klive5ive wrote:
TL really needs to drop this; it's getting really old.
Yes this is the best SC2 website by far but that doesn't give you the right to dictate to everyone what they should do with their tournaments and walk around with this ridiculous air of superiority.
The fact that the players aren't even performing makes it even worse.
Maybe if they were capable of dropping their ego down a few notches they might be able to learn a few things from other players and actually win stuff.
Old? It is the first time we ask for this as far as I am aware -_-
As for the rest of your post, where the hell does the hostility come from? Im pretty sure we are all well aware of how bad the last two months have been without you reminding us, but I dont see why it would be more or less OK to ask for FAIR playing conditions depending on results.
Fair is fair, results are irrelevant in this regard.
On May 02 2011 18:53 deSmalle wrote:
Aside from all the who is right, who is wrong discussion going on ( the format's been set, neither party is gonna admit their mistakes - if any // considerations kept in mind for next year), I do have 1 question I'm surprised noone else posted yet:
Why didnt TL just send Ret, TLO and Tyler?
Must admit, havent seen Tyler play yet, but I know Ret and TLO (and prolly Tyler as well) would make for very competitive play, with an equal chance of winning the league as anyone.
Because relying on 3 players to do the job of 6 is not fair - there is no depth to the line up and more than that, it puts a heavy burden on the players -.-
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To be honest I am most puzzled about the fact that Empire is not in this.
They would have been a top contender to take this tournament.
For some reasons eastern europeans are always overlooked when it comes to invite tournaments. Was the case with NASL and many others. I feel sorry for them.
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On May 02 2011 18:57 Proko wrote:
If Liquid knows how to run a better team starleague stop telling us that you know how and run your own.
I feel so much hate whenever someone uses this ridiculous argument. Especially in this particular situation considering the size of the tournament TL has been running for the last 5 months.
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Given exactly how many massive tournaments are running at the moment I think its a bit silly to keep going on about this issue. If you have a favourate player/team you will be able to watch them compete somewhere.
I'm a fan of high level play so I would have liked to have seen Liquid in this tournament since they contribute that. But they wont be in the tournament, so lets just enjoy it with the fantastic players still competing? End of the day its EG's tournament and money so they can do what they want to do.
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I'd just like to touch up on the US-EU server disadvantage talk.
Pinging European servers from NA will get you between 120ms-200ms ping (depending on if you are on the West Coast or East coast etc..).
Afaik bnet minimum latency is set to 125ms. Meaning Europeans on US servers are playing with a 75ms ping at worst (good enough to even play FPS games) and same goes for Americans on the EU server. Which would explain why there's basically no noticable lag between EU-US.
So the disadvantage is 0.075 seconds. i.e almost nonexistant.
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On May 02 2011 18:57 Proko wrote:
If Liquid knows how to run a better team starleague stop telling us that you know how and run your own.
I'm pretty sure TL can easily run a better team league judging from past TSLs and the amount of community effort it receives. However, I believe that there is an ostensible conflict of interest with running a team league in which you are also competing in. Surprisingly, no independent third party has put their hand up to do something like this and surprisingly, EG doesn't seem to care about the ostensible conflict of interest in managing a league in which it also competes. This just shows that esports has not come as far as we may have thought, as it needs leagues to be run internally from within the player base.
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On May 02 2011 19:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:53 deSmalle wrote:
Aside from all the who is right, who is wrong discussion going on ( the format's been set, neither party is gonna admit their mistakes - if any // considerations kept in mind for next year), I do have 1 question I'm surprised noone else posted yet:
Why didnt TL just send Ret, TLO and Tyler?
Must admit, havent seen Tyler play yet, but I know Ret and TLO (and prolly Tyler as well) would make for very competitive play, with an equal chance of winning the league as anyone.
Because relying on 3 players to do the job of 6 is not fair - there is no depth to the line up and more than that, it puts a heavy burden on the players -.-
Wow, thanks for the immediate response  .
Guess I didnt think of it like that, and looking at it like that, it obviously makes a lot of sense...
Cheers for clarifying it.
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Would have liked to see Liquid and Prae, also the 2v2 is iffy.
Looking forward to more casting by Idra though, he was great in the GSL.
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not sure I think EG made the best decision here, nice to see a big tournament nevertheless... shame TL wont be in it.
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On May 02 2011 19:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 18:32 Klive5ive wrote:
TL really needs to drop this; it's getting really old.
Yes this is the best SC2 website by far but that doesn't give you the right to dictate to everyone what they should do with their tournaments and walk around with this ridiculous air of superiority.
The fact that the players aren't even performing makes it even worse.
Maybe if they were capable of dropping their ego down a few notches they might be able to learn a few things from other players and actually win stuff. Old? It is the first time we ask for this as far as I am aware -_-
It's not the first time TL has told other tournaments what they should be doing. It's happened many many times in BroodWar and now in SC2; a lot of it was justified but recently it's too much.
It's good for drama, say what you want, but you have to be able to take as well as give.
The rules of this clanleague are fair. The rules are set out and apply to every team; they are consistent and therefore fair.
Do the rules makes it easy for TL to participate? No they don't.
Fair enough ask for a rule change, but then when it's denied just bow out respectfully.
To start moaning at the organisers for not accomodating your specific requirements is really un-classy.
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I think 2v2s are great for a tournament, it's a new twist I have yet to see in SC2 that would showcase how players can work as a team.
I think the Liquid-invite dispute is childish. Would rather see one team not playing then every other team not playing their best to produce better games. I think that's also reasonable to ask.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Wow.... What's with the open hostility towards TL? All they did was take an understandable and perfectly reasonable stance which merits full consideration. This was not born of arrogance or any superiority complex but a simple wish for all playing fields to be level. Yes they are the most affected right now but if you truly want the SC2 esports scene to grow as a global community and have large international tournaments, you have to address these issues. It seems like EG has taken note of this and will put it into consideration for their future tournaments which is what TL wanted. I don't really get why people are lashing out at TL.
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EPT
