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On April 25 2011 17:52 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:40 Dommk wrote:On April 25 2011 17:27 Grumbels wrote:On April 25 2011 07:30 NicolBolas wrote:On April 25 2011 01:32 SeraKuDA wrote:
The fact is that nobody even gave my idea a chance, or tried to work it out a little bit. It was instantly shut down because it wasn't directly from Blizzard. Hypocrites. You proposed something that, on the face of it, does not work. Blizzard proposed something that could work. They proposed a more nuanced and plausible idea than you did. It is your responsibility, as the person proposing the idea, to propose a good idea. It is not the responsibility of the reader to propose other changes in addition to yours to make your bad idea work. On April 25 2011 03:00 Grumbels wrote:On April 25 2011 02:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 25 2011 01:58 Grumbels wrote:
[Personally I think that warpgate is a crutch for many protosses and that if it was somewhat changed, that then there would be more room for some interesting design by Blizzard. I wouldn't descrbe warpgate tech as a crutch. Each race has built in mechanics that are very powerful. The ability to build as many mutalisks as you have larva as soon as the spire pops for Zerg is an amazing advantage (if you build a stargate, you can build exactly 1 void ray when it finishes, with a spire the number is limited only to resources and larva). The ability to drop down mules, scans, or supplies and build planetary fortresses is amazing too. The point is, each race has weaknesses and strengths. We like to whine about the strengths, but we often don't look at the weaknesses. Protoss units in generally would need buffs and more mobility (Protoss units in general lack mobility except for the Stalker and Pheonix, and the Stalker is a "Ranged Support Unit" that lacks DPS, and the Pheonix has limited uses) if warpgate tech was taken away. Just like Terran units would need to cost less and detection would have to be more readily available in their tech tree if Terrans couldn't build Orbitals. These could be described as crutches, but they are the strengths of each race, and naturally players lean on their strengths. And I think these strengths are what makes the game interesting. That's meaningless. You can call everything strong a race has a 'strength', that is a 'unique feature'. Warpgate could severely be nerfed, while still allowing you to use it for mobility. I call it a crutch because protoss is dependent on warpgates to make almost all of their offensive timings work, and they use it to make drop defense work too. These aspects could be weakened a bit, with other things designed to take their place, and this way protoss would ..certainly change, but I think for the best, since they would no longer be this dependent on a single mechanic. Please. Every race has mechanics that they absolutely rely on for various things; that's the nature of the beast. The Zerg are built around one specific mechanic: all their units come from a single source. Everything about the Zerg is based on this. This is what makes StarCraft good; that each race has these unique facets that you must use in order to properly play them. If you weaken these unique aspects of races, then the races become more similar to one another. That's why Warp-in was invented in the first place: to help differentiate the races, since in SC1, Terrans and Protosses produced units in very similar ways. Yes, they absolutely rely on the warpgate mechanic, hence my calling it a crutch. (? what's your point). Nowhere did I advocate doing away with the warpgate mechanic, I merely suggested that now it fills too many roles that make protoss too dependent on one single mechanic. It's not bad because of that, but because with warpgates you don't need to prepare for drop defense, and also it creates these simply counter-intuitive situations in PvP where you have a defender's disadvantage and so on. Hence my suggestion to tweak that a little bit. When someone proposed warpgates and said: "wouldn't it be cool if protoss could warp in all units everywhere they have vision", then hopefully other designers didn't jump for joy and said: "great, let's implement that and ship the game", but instead wondered if there wouldn't be a problem with it taking away defender's advantage and so on. Warpgates already had a lot of nerfs, adding a few more won't hurt the game. Uh, without Warpgates Protoss is the worst race at drop defense. Their anti air defense is the worst of the three races for it's cost, especially when you have to factor in the cost of setting up perimeter pylons. Then on top of Gateway untis take longer to build than Barracks units, but they are powered by Pylons and made almost purely on a reactive level in the mid/late game. Then you have to factor in that Gateway units require a balance of all three--Stalker/Zealot/Sentry--to do well. Scoke said it best in the "12 weeks with the Pros" when he said that Protoss mineral units in SC1:BW (Dragoons/Zealots) were a LOT stronger, Dragoon/Zealots shit on Medivac/Marine, but in SC2, unless you have an upgrade lead (and even with an upgrade lead) it is no where close to same level, you alomst always need to warp-in more supply of units to what is getting dropped tp win warp gates though isn't going away, it's more like I need X units at Y so I am going to warp in. and I need units so I do gate way. Warp in will be a ...how do you word it, gimmick? to skip reinforce distances and stuff while gateways are for max macro purposes.
Wait, wait, warping in units anywhere on the map is a gimmick?...okay
Protoss reactiveness is based on unit balance and what the opponent has, it is like "oh shit, I just lost all my Zealots and he is pushing, If I don't get a round of Zealots in the next 10seconds this Bioball is going to rape my Stalker/Sentries", that is why almost always Protoss builds more gateways than their economy can support. If you watch MC vs Thorzaine, everytime MC took a expansion he added 4gateways, 4gateways can't continually support a bases economy, especially when you factor in Robotics bays and upgrades, but Protoss is a race where getting a unit *NOW* and getting it 20seconds later means the difference between being able to hold off the incoming assault and losing everything
Now, the thing is, until Protoss start going on the offensive, your Warpgates are almost always idling for lengths of time due to the cost of teching, in the midgame you almost have to stop building units just to research tech. With Warpgates, your first production cycle is skipped as you get units at the start of the cycle, not at the end. So When you start producing from Gateways, you have to be constantly producing for a certain time to get more units out than from Warpgates. Unless they make it so Gateway units have like half the buildtime of Warpgate units, no Protoss player is going to be dumb enough to use Gateways over Warpgates, most likely they will just spend an extra 150/300 minerals on more Warpgates
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unless gate units cost less resources comming out of a gateway i highly doubt theyll see any real use past 6minutes.
people will base the number of production facilities off warpgates and all gateways will do for you is get your unit a couple seconds faster but out of position so the time benefit probably wont make any significant benefit unless your fighting right on top of the gates.
i also doubt people will switch gateways/warpgates back and forth with it being a 10sec cooldown. sounds like a fun thought but not practical at all, and not from lack of apm, its just not worth the effort and risk.
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If the goal is to discourage 4gate, isn't forcing players to spend more money on gateways if they want to warp in kind of the point? If you have to spend extra on warpgates to match the production of gateways, isn't that really good for the defender in a 4gate vs 4gate situation?
"players will just spend more on gateways for the same level of production" is the whole point because it forces someone on the offense to spend a lot more money. The reason 4gate works is because even if the opponent 4gates too, they don't have a gigantic advantage. Forcing the attacker to spend an extra 200-300 minerals gives the defender the advantage they need to hold it off, making 4gate less effective.
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problem is in that gate vs gate scenario youll want frontloaded (get the unit when you pay, not later) units and youll want to have exactly 1 zealot more than your enemy. if you have to choose your units 30 seconds before you fight you could end up with a poor composition.
if 3 gateways can match 5 warpgates yeah i agree problem solved, but i imagine itll be more like 4v5 and 4 warpgates>3 gateways.
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Gateways would need to be vastly better to let people pick them over warpgates. The only way to balance that is probably added cost to warpgate units (maybe make morphing a gateway to a warpgate cost money).
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PvP at this moment on gom stream. Code A Banban vs Brown. Seriuously, this matchup is totally fine. + Show Spoiler +Brown counters the 4 warpgate with cannons and makes phoenix to harass. Brown wins.
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I dont see this working:
-) zealots build time has been increased once or twice (back in the beta I think) because those zealot rushes and proxy gates were so strong. so decreasing the build time again... I dont know about that.
-) any nerfs on warpgates makes 4gate worse against the other races too. though I think it's ok in PvZ as you will still lose if you dont scout it and get your ramp blocked, Terrans can hold them pretty easily unscouted right now...
...
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i think most people are mis reading whats been said. the Op on the blizz forums says that wapr gate build time is increaseing but unit build time is staying the same from warp gates. the only thing they say thier looking at is the gateway build times of units. it would make sense to have gateways build faster than warp gates cause then gateway units start popping out faster than barracks units.
right now theres a 10 second build time deficiency between gateways and warp gates reducing that in anyway increases the number of units you'll have out before warp gate arrives and allows for better defense AND offense int he early game. though i wouldn't expect anything that'd make gateways more favorable because they never will be. you don't see anyone yelling about the larva mechanic so stop complaining about warp gates.
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this will be really cool is protoss will have to use half gateway and half warp gate
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On April 25 2011 18:45 Big J wrote:
I dont see this working:
-) zealots build time has been increased once or twice (back in the beta I think) because those zealot rushes and proxy gates were so strong. so decreasing the build time again... I dont know about that.
-) any nerfs on warpgates makes 4gate worse against the other races too. though I think it's ok in PvZ as you will still lose if you dont scout it and get your ramp blocked, Terrans can hold them pretty easily unscouted right now...
...
and who cares ? 4 gate should never work, no matter scouted or not.
do you see terrans 3 raxing to the win vs protoss if not scouted? no, warp in sentries and hold it.
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On April 25 2011 19:07 Toxi78 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 18:45 Big J wrote:
I dont see this working:
-) zealots build time has been increased once or twice (back in the beta I think) because those zealot rushes and proxy gates were so strong. so decreasing the build time again... I dont know about that.
-) any nerfs on warpgates makes 4gate worse against the other races too. though I think it's ok in PvZ as you will still lose if you dont scout it and get your ramp blocked, Terrans can hold them pretty easily unscouted right now...
... and who cares ? 4 gate should never work, no matter scouted or not. do you see terrans 3 raxing to the win vs protoss if not scouted? no, warp in sentries and hold it.
lol
MVP Keen has just 3 raxed Choya and won.
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On April 25 2011 19:13 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 19:07 Toxi78 wrote:On April 25 2011 18:45 Big J wrote:
I dont see this working:
-) zealots build time has been increased once or twice (back in the beta I think) because those zealot rushes and proxy gates were so strong. so decreasing the build time again... I dont know about that.
-) any nerfs on warpgates makes 4gate worse against the other races too. though I think it's ok in PvZ as you will still lose if you dont scout it and get your ramp blocked, Terrans can hold them pretty easily unscouted right now...
... and who cares ? 4 gate should never work, no matter scouted or not. do you see terrans 3 raxing to the win vs protoss if not scouted? no, warp in sentries and hold it. lol MVP Keen has just 3 raxed Choya and won.
+ Show Spoiler + Only because Choya was so incredibly greedy
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Would be so cool if gateways produced faster than warpgates. Having a couple of gateways producing the cookie cutter units while having 1-2 warpgates to warp in at proxy pylons for harass, or to be able to react instantly and reinforce with the units needed at the time. Also keeping them as gateways while macroing in the base, and then switching them to warpgates while going for the offense would be strong.
Might not be exactly what was discussed in the thread, but it would give more space for creative builds and playstyles imo. Please do it blizz! Also, almost anything done to PvP atm would be good I think. Can't get much worse than it is ^^
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On April 25 2011 21:24 njtwkr wrote:
Would be so cool if gateways produced faster than warpgates. Having a couple of gateways producing the cookie cutter units while having 1-2 warpgates to warp in at proxy pylons for harass, or to be able to react instantly and reinforce with the units needed at the time. Also keeping them as gateways while macroing in the base, and then switching them to warpgates while going for the offense would be strong.
Might not be exactly what was discussed in the thread, but it would give more space for creative builds and playstyles imo. Please do it blizz! Also, almost anything done to PvP atm would be good I think. Can't get much worse than it is ^^
Why do people suggest this? Removing warpgates for generic macroing will just project protoss back to the past with a boring one-dimensional barracks type building lifted directly from Warcraft 2. What is this obsession with using gateways, honestly? Is it all nostalgia for Brood War?
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On April 25 2011 22:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 21:24 njtwkr wrote:
Would be so cool if gateways produced faster than warpgates. Having a couple of gateways producing the cookie cutter units while having 1-2 warpgates to warp in at proxy pylons for harass, or to be able to react instantly and reinforce with the units needed at the time. Also keeping them as gateways while macroing in the base, and then switching them to warpgates while going for the offense would be strong.
Might not be exactly what was discussed in the thread, but it would give more space for creative builds and playstyles imo. Please do it blizz! Also, almost anything done to PvP atm would be good I think. Can't get much worse than it is ^^ Why do people suggest this? Removing warpgates for generic macroing will just project protoss back to the past with a boring one-dimensional barracks type building lifted directly from Warcraft 2. What is this obsession with using gateways, honestly? Is it all nostalgia for Brood War?
People like having a defenders advantage dynamic in this game.
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Who have read the 50 pages of comments? This thread is going mad O_o
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if this is true, we'll see the chrono zealot rush zergs had such a bitch of a time dealing with early on in the games release.
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Just leave it alone. Playing with these stuff with mess up PvX balance even more.
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On April 25 2011 19:13 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 19:07 Toxi78 wrote:On April 25 2011 18:45 Big J wrote:
I dont see this working:
-) zealots build time has been increased once or twice (back in the beta I think) because those zealot rushes and proxy gates were so strong. so decreasing the build time again... I dont know about that.
-) any nerfs on warpgates makes 4gate worse against the other races too. though I think it's ok in PvZ as you will still lose if you dont scout it and get your ramp blocked, Terrans can hold them pretty easily unscouted right now...
... and who cares ? 4 gate should never work, no matter scouted or not. do you see terrans 3 raxing to the win vs protoss if not scouted? no, warp in sentries and hold it. lol MVP Keen has just 3 raxed Choya and won.
?
3 rax is reactor / 2 techlab stim timing push, you know ?
making 3 barracks and mass marines because your opponent makes a build that is so incredibly bad that it dies to the worst possible rush doesnt make a good example.
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On April 25 2011 18:39 Anomandaris wrote:PvP at this moment on gom stream. Code A Banban vs Brown. Seriuously, this matchup is totally fine. + Show Spoiler +Brown counters the 4 warpgate with cannons and makes phoenix to harass. Brown wins.
Yup blizz just doesn't give it enough time this patch every month is ridiculous before meta evolves.
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EPT
