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On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald
Except Blizz already removed Terran's rax before depot proxy potential, so to me this is just... Fair. Power fields on different elevations should be removed. I even remember reading that they didn't mean to implement this in the game, but when they did it by accident, they just kept it. Remove it. Please, please. Remove it. Protoss needs less early game cheese potential.
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Warp-gate tech +40s
Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates
Zealot build time reduced by 3s (gateway)
Sentry build time reduced by 5s (gateway)
the end.
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On April 26 2011 05:24 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald Lol, you didn't pioneer that build. This kind of play has been around since beta. People do it all the time with cannon rushes as well. I would also like to emphasize this part again: Show nested quote +Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
well i for one have never scene it done before i did it... so i kind of did but if u want the claim to fame ... fine.. u started it. point is they shouldnt nerf this opening that forces a micro game
On April 26 2011 05:26 Mercadia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald Except Blizz already removed Terran's rax before depot proxy potential, so to me this is just... Fair. Power fields on different elevations should be removed. I even remember reading that they didn't mean to implement this in the game, but when they did it by accident, they just kept it. Remove it. Please, please. Remove it. Protoss needs less early game cheese potential.
u still have to make pylon before gateway i dont see you're point.. how is it cheese we saw MC do it in GSL finals even... should blizard add a no rush 15 min rule LOL
with love
~Juanald
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Maybe just making stalkers require a twilight council (make them t2) would fix everything.
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I would be worried about early reapers if stalkers required a twilight, but maybe it's worth putting on PTR and seeing what happens
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Cloaked banshee's would be so hard to deal with if stalkers required TC.
Would need early twilight and robo or cannons which would make defending banshees off any early expand really hard.
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On April 26 2011 05:38 opiemonster wrote:
Maybe just making stalkers require a twilight council (make them t2) would fix everything.
that's... a terrible idea, no offense. what would a protoss do vs a roach/ling all-in? sure they can FF, but they would have no T1 unit that can actually deal damage to roaches. nor would they be able to deal with early marines. i still say units should take twice the time they do to actually warp in. wouldn't be a huge difference for non mirrors and would hurt the aggressive 4 gate
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On April 26 2011 05:34 opiemonster wrote:
Warp-gate tech +40s
Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates
Zealot build time reduced by 3s (gateway)
Sentry build time reduced by 5s (gateway)
the end.
Not going to work that way. Remember, lowering the build time of all t1 units for protoss is going to enable you to proxy before the 6:30 mark as a form of (probably all-in) aggression.
I don't see how a small change to the warp gate research time will make 4 gate more defensible. You need to add enough time to enable someone to get out immortals reasonably.
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On April 26 2011 05:37 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:26 Mercadia wrote:On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald Except Blizz already removed Terran's rax before depot proxy potential, so to me this is just... Fair. Power fields on different elevations should be removed. I even remember reading that they didn't mean to implement this in the game, but when they did it by accident, they just kept it. Remove it. Please, please. Remove it. Protoss needs less early game cheese potential. u still have to make pylon before gateway i dont see you're point.. how is it cheese we saw MC do it in GSL finals even... should blizard add a no rush 15 min rule LOL with love ~Juanald
Whether or not professional players have ever used the build does not define whether or not the build is a cheese. I don't think there's much discussion on the matter, proxy gate is cheesing pretty hard.
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An easy fix would be making it a two step upgrade. Let the first upgrade allow warp ins with pylons near the vicinity of a nexus - suppose sensor tower range around nexus. Completion of that upgrade that would enable further research of warp ins everywhere.
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I wish they fix the warp-in on the ramp or in opponent's pylon radius, so we won't see 4 gates again. I love phoenix in PvP recently, such an awesome unit.
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I really hope whatever they do it doesn't screw with other matchups. Ever since the roach buff which was intended to help zvt and the forge and zealot build time nerf, which was intended to weaken toss cheese. I've had a lot of trouble with zerg all ins. After the zerg gets 2 or 4 lings and kills my scouting probe it's hard to know if they are saturating their natural or making tons of roach/ling. With an ov for spotting the high ground to let roaches hit your wall in. It's hard to set up to win a macro game and deal with this surprise aggression. I think a nerf to protoss early game could be problematic, and really its protoss's late game or deathball that I've heard the most complaints about.
I've been having moderate success in pvp with placing my gateways and cyber to block any high ground warp ins, while going 3 gate robo and pumping immortals with crono. Once the 3rd immoral is out you can usually win as long as you held of any 4 gate aggression without pulling probes. The 4 gater is in a dire situation because they know that you have the potential to go colossus so they rush to get their tech going and the 3 immortal/gateway push rolls them. I doubt this would be viable in high masters though, because the 4 gates are so much cleaner. If they buffed the immortal build time it would probably solve this and provide for a macro game in pvp. As it stands right now, in pvt or pvz immortals are okay early/mid game but colossus are so much better for the cost and production time, they really step on each others role imo.
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On April 26 2011 05:57 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:37 Juanald wrote:On April 26 2011 05:26 Mercadia wrote:On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald Except Blizz already removed Terran's rax before depot proxy potential, so to me this is just... Fair. Power fields on different elevations should be removed. I even remember reading that they didn't mean to implement this in the game, but when they did it by accident, they just kept it. Remove it. Please, please. Remove it. Protoss needs less early game cheese potential. u still have to make pylon before gateway i dont see you're point.. how is it cheese we saw MC do it in GSL finals even... should blizard add a no rush 15 min rule LOL with love ~Juanald Whether or not professional players have ever used the build does not define whether or not the build is a cheese. I don't think there's much discussion on the matter, proxy gate is cheesing pretty hard.
OK i see you're point but i dont like blizard removing protoss threat of presure weather or not you do the build... it lets the other race feel safe against us early game... :r
with love 
~Juanald
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On April 26 2011 06:03 Reborn8u wrote:
I really hope whatever they do it doesn't screw with other matchups. Ever since the roach buff which was intended to help zvt and the forge and zealot build time nerf, which was intended to weaken toss cheese. I've had a lot of trouble with zerg all ins. After the zerg gets 2 or 4 lings and kills my scouting probe it's hard to know if they are saturating their natural or making tons of roach/ling. With an ov for spotting the high ground to let roaches hit your wall in. It's hard to set up to win a macro game and deal with this surprise aggression. I think a nerf to protoss early game could be problematic, and really its protoss's late game or deathball that I've heard the most complaints about.
I've been having moderate success in pvp with placing my gateways and cyber to block any high ground warp ins, while going 3 gate robo and pumping immortals with crono. Once the 3rd immoral is out you can usually win as long as you held of any 4 gate aggression without pulling probes. The 4 gater is in a dire situation because they know that you have the potential to go colossus so they rush to get their tech going and the 3 immortal/gateway push rolls them. I doubt this would be viable in high masters though, because the 4 gates are so much cleaner. If they buffed the immortal build time it would probably solve this and provide for a macro game. As it stands right now, in pvt or pvz immortals are okay early/mid game but colossus are so much better for the cost and production time, they really step on each others role imo.
I was in the same situation with the scouting when i first started play some protoss. Imo u can do 2 things to scout the Zerg, 1. Hide a probe 2. Get hallucination after warp gate tech. 3. get a fast robo ( also for any roach timing push).
Regards
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On April 26 2011 05:26 Mercadia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald Except Blizz already removed Terran's rax before depot proxy potential, so to me this is just... Fair. Power fields on different elevations should be removed. I even remember reading that they didn't mean to implement this in the game, but when they did it by accident, they just kept it. Remove it. Please, please. Remove it. Protoss needs less early game cheese potential.
Another cool thing that might be worth pointing out about this change is that even in the other matchups, on certain maps this could actually somewhat "nerf" a 4gate rush. There are some maps where you can put a pylon on high ground or low ground behind a pile of rocks or something and there's really no way for the defender to run around and snipe the pylon. If warp fields didn't affect different elevations, there would need to be a tiny bit more attention paid to keeping that forward pylon alive. Subtle change, probably not huge, but nice I think.
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I love the idea of removing the pylon power spreading to high ground. Though I think it should still drop to lower ground.
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On April 26 2011 05:34 opiemonster wrote:
Warp-gate tech +40s
Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates
Zealot build time reduced by 3s (gateway)
Sentry build time reduced by 5s (gateway)
the end.
Lol, this thread has become a "spill your hate on protoss and nerf ideas without risking being banned" thread.
Seriously some of these propositions are just silly.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
It may work for dealing with 4gate, but by doing this is you remove a lot of interesting builds which use warp in over cliffs such as voidray/zealot and dark templar warp ins with hallucinated air units. You'd have to make a Robo for a Warp Prism just to go up cliffs which would kill the viability of these builds.
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On April 26 2011 06:03 Reborn8u wrote:
I really hope whatever they do it doesn't screw with other matchups. Ever since the roach buff which was intended to help zvt and the forge and zealot build time nerf, which was intended to weaken toss cheese. I've had a lot of trouble with zerg all ins. After the zerg gets 2 or 4 lings and kills my scouting probe it's hard to know if they are saturating their natural or making tons of roach/ling. With an ov for spotting the high ground to let roaches hit your wall in. It's hard to set up to win a macro game and deal with this surprise aggression. I think a nerf to protoss early game could be problematic, and really its protoss's late game or deathball that I've heard the most complaints about.
I've been having moderate success in pvp with placing my gateways and cyber to block any high ground warp ins, while going 3 gate robo and pumping immortals with crono. Once the 3rd immoral is out you can usually win as long as you held of any 4 gate aggression without pulling probes. The 4 gater is in a dire situation because they know that you have the potential to go colossus so they rush to get their tech going and the 3 immortal/gateway push rolls them. I doubt this would be viable in high masters though, because the 4 gates are so much cleaner. If they buffed the immortal build time it would probably solve this and provide for a macro game in pvp. As it stands right now, in pvt or pvz immortals are okay early/mid game but colossus are so much better for the cost and production time, they really step on each others role imo.
Zerg all-ins are extremely hard for Protoss to deal with. Diamond players knew this half a year ago. The pros are finally catching up, strangely enough.
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Leave PvP alone. MC wins 90% of his PvPs... this matchup probably is least forgiving to bad players. Leave it alone!!!
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EPT
