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What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
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This is a pretty cool change in my opinion. Tweaking the 4 gate while buffing 2gates is something I'd really like to see. It makes early pressure/play much more fun and dynamic.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
I LOVE that idea! It would also increase the use of Warp Prisms, because they would not suffer from this change. Love it love it love it!
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2011 22:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 21:24 njtwkr wrote:
Would be so cool if gateways produced faster than warpgates. Having a couple of gateways producing the cookie cutter units while having 1-2 warpgates to warp in at proxy pylons for harass, or to be able to react instantly and reinforce with the units needed at the time. Also keeping them as gateways while macroing in the base, and then switching them to warpgates while going for the offense would be strong.
Might not be exactly what was discussed in the thread, but it would give more space for creative builds and playstyles imo. Please do it blizz! Also, almost anything done to PvP atm would be good I think. Can't get much worse than it is ^^ Why do people suggest this? Removing warpgates for generic macroing will just project protoss back to the past with a boring one-dimensional barracks type building lifted directly from Warcraft 2. What is this obsession with using gateways, honestly? Is it all nostalgia for Brood War?
I actually did not even play BroodWar before Starcraft 2. I just think it would add more variation to the game, instead of gateways just being viable the first minutes of the game. Of course I can't tell how it really would end up, but I like the idea of having some sort of balance between warpgates and gateways, being used in different scenarios.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
This idea is great. I don't see anything that this would mess up except as you said, lame cheeses.
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On April 25 2011 17:31 Anomandaris wrote:
PvP is fine. It is fun and requires a lot of skill. Those who don't agree have to watch TSL 3 ro8 Naniwa vs Cruncher.
No change is needed.
You have to be kidding.
Yeah, its totally fun seeing like 95% of PvPs end in less than 10 minutes.
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not a bad idea final but the only thing i dont really like is that it doesnt help protoss expand. almost every protoss unit is actually good in pvp macro games, the problem is the fact that 2base vs 2base protoss happens once in a blue moon.
id be fine with seeing mass gate units every pvp till the end of time if pvp could have as many bases per game as tvt.
edit for the post below me: the p with the greater micro usually wins but not necessarily the most skilled protoss. some would argue the type of skill necessary to win pvp is not the most entertaining type of skill and MC is pretty much 95% win in pvp right now anyway because at the pro level you can only beat 4gate without 4gate if your better than your opponent. if thats not true, i dont know why the biggest money matches come down to 4gate consistantly.
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I kinda like this change in general, though i've never really had a problem with pvp myself
its a bit of a volatile matchup, but its one of the biggest tests of skill because all in all, the more skilled player usually wins by a fair %age. It wont be long till you see really strong progamers (maybe in 2-3 months time?) who just win 95% of their PVP's
I never really had a problem with the 4 warpgate timing, there are ways to beat it.. All it will do is shift the game to a more robo/stargate based play
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What i really do like though, is it opens up a lot of options in the other matchups. I really like the idea of having faster gateways.
I also like the idea of having gateways just being faster than warpgate in general, and using warpgates as a mechanic to warp in distance. It would certainly open up a ton of timings and allow you to clutch warpin units where you couldn't before.
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im new to sc2 so please dont give to much hate but I see nothing wrong with pvp in its current state, whoever executes the build better + better micro wins
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On April 26 2011 02:54 mewby wrote:
im new to sc2 so please dont give to much hate but I see nothing wrong with pvp in its current state, whoever executes the build better + better micro wins
that's just the thing; it's all about the build. 4gate is really the only viable option because if your opponent goes 4gate, the only thing you can do to defend against it is another 4gate. there's no room for flexibility/creativity, making pvp a rather boring draining matchup.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
Something I like about this which hasn't been mentioned yet is that it wouldn't mess around with the other matchups the same way that messing with build times would.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed
with love
~Juanald
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hope we will see patch notes soon !
And glad to see that PVP will change soon most boring matchup by far at the moment.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
Wow really great idea. I cant think of a single thing this would affect except for inbase proxy gateways and lame 4 gates.
I hope they implement this.
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I'd like to see a reduced Immortal build time which would make 2-gate robo a bit more viable against 4-gates.
[As an added bonus I think thermal lance should only be +2 range upgrade but that doesn't really belong in this thread]
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Warpgate warpin time and warpgate cool-down time should just depend on the distance from the warpgate. This will force protoss to go back to their base to macro if they want to produce faster.
Moreover, it will also reward players who hotkey groups of gateways instead of using the "W" key. Seperated gateways are less vulnerable then all the warpgates in the same place. So a player who is macroing hard would switch between various clusters of gateways.
Additionally, you could make warp-prisms circumvent this warpgate distance dynamic, making warpprisms a must for reinforcing attacking armys.
Pretty much making warpgate unit build time depend on distance will make everything about protoss macro better and reward the better player.
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On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator
I spent a good 10 minutes thinking about how this would not work, but I have to agree it would solve so many problems with protoss early game style.
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Perfect Patch:
To deal with 4-gate:
Warp-gate tech built at twilight council
Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates
Zealot build time reduced by 3s (gateway)
Sentry build time reduced by 5s (gateway)
To deal with colossus:
Colossus damage 12(+3 light),
Thermal lance has 1 less range.
immortal +1 range upgrade restored
Possible variations:
Stalkers build time +10-20s (replace -- Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates)
warp-gate tech build time increase +20-40s (replace -- Warp-gate tech built at twilight council)
Colossus damage: 10(+5 light) (replace -- all colossus changes)
Pros:
In PvP, epic sentry zealot battles
Immortals will counter colossi way better
Stargate units will be more effective in PvP
Less dice roll 4gate/colossus battles.
Zerg can deal with colossus better.
Cons:
More effective zealot rush all-ins (larger maps negate earlier experiences)
banshees more effective (Unless stalker variation used)
roach rushing more effective (Unless stalker variation used and warpgate variation used)
(roach range could be reverted by 1)
immortals will be more powerful in other zerg/terran (unless colossus variation used)
(could be used to deal with roach rushes. this con could help colossus nerf)
Terran Bio more powerful against toss
(Immortal con could help with colossus nerf)
_________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
Warp-gate tech +40s
Stalkers can only be built at warp-gates
Zealot build time reduced by 3s (gateway)
Sentry build time reduced by 5s (gateway)
Colossus damage: 10(+5 light)
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On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald
Sneak the probe in and build theh pylon on the high ground as well...
Honestly I think your argument adds to why Judicator's idea is brilliant, not only does this help kill the 4gate rush but the only other thing it really affects is lame cannon rushes and horror gates.
To be fair this would also prevent some of the rather cool tactics like high ground dt warp-ins but nothing that can't be replaced by getting the ever so underused warp prism.
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On April 26 2011 05:02 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 22:57 Final_Judicator wrote:
What I dont see is why the Pylon's power range spreads to higher ground.
If that wasn't the case, defending against Warpgate rushes would be so much easier for all races since gaining vision via 4 warped-in zealots on the high ground is THE key element of a 4 Warpgate rush.
That would fix the whole 4 Warpgate problem everywhere except on some crappy maps like Delta Quadrant or Gutterhulk, where you can place a proxy pylon on even ground outside your enemie's base.
Defensive PvP tech would have a much easier time since you can just hold the ramp.
And en passant, that would fix the stuipdness of PZ teams in 2v2 (or 3v3, 4v4 for that matter) with undefendable Overlord vision + 4 Gate warpin rushes...
Nerfing Pylon Power spread would even weaken stupid canon rushes (at least, a bit) since you would actually need a Pylon on higher ground to build canons on higher ground.
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
Regards,
Judicator the main problem i have with this is i pioneared an agressive build on xel naga where u put pylon low ground and 2 gateways on high ground for PvT... i dont think the threat of gateways in you're main should be nerfed with love ~Juanald
Lol, you didn't pioneer that build. This kind of play has been around since beta. People do it all the time with cannon rushes as well. I would also like to emphasize this part again:
Basically, a thousand nerfs of lame/cheesy strategies in one, while not affecting the rest of the game AT ALL.
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EPT
