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On April 22 2011 17:58 KobraKay wrote:Sadly this. 4gate rush is so commum that it hurts anyone trying to ladder from below plat (and so do other rushes because thats all there is) but if you go down enough in short rush distance map Ps will often 2gate rush you. Most times its easy to defend with some micro but with Zlots arriving even faster? Poor people :p oh and poor 2v2 games with a P.
Well actually P tends to be seen as the weakest in 2v2 rushes, so maybe this stone could kill 2 birds 
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oh well, ppl will just cannon rush amd 2gate proxy ^^ cant imagine PvP changing at all.
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10387 Posts
Increase the amount of time it takes for a unit to warp-in while decreasing warp-gate cool-down time proportionally. Gives defender opportunity to kill warping-in units.
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On April 22 2011 18:01 Mastermind wrote:
I dont even mind pvp anymore. I learned to deal with the 4gate and move the game into the mid game.
Really... then.... wow. You need to get in touch with MC, KiWiKaKi, and every pro out there... 'Cause if you know how to do this, that's something nobody else knows.
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On April 22 2011 17:54 Seiniyta wrote:
What I would like to see is when you research warp gates, only then units out of gateways are prduced faster. So this way there isn't the danger of the zealots (vs zerg) being ridicilously fast (though again, the maps are now larger then in the past) but also gives more choice. 'Do I need more units? Or do I want be able to warp units anywere on the map?" it could depend on the situation and would I think create a interesting dynamic.
Warpgates create units at the beginning of a production cycle. If you have 5 gateways that produce units slightly faster, but have 5 units worth of resources tied up inside a gateway and get attacked, wouldn't you rather have 6 warpgates and get the next cycle slightly faster? Including travel time, if you get attacked, your production cycle for units would be delayed 15 secs ( 30(build time) -10s (WG conversion time) - 5s (warp in time) ) + travel time.
Another point is the flexibility of warpgates. Say you're facing 10 marauders with 2 zealots and 10 stalkers. You want to retreat and warp in more zealots. You can make near realtime choices on what to spend money on. If you had gateways and you happened to be making 2 sentries, 2 stalkers and a zealot, you're going to die =(
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I really doubt they'll decrease unit build times for gateways. They nerfed zealot gateway build time twice already 'cause 2gate was "too strong."
If they seriously just undo all that by making unit build times for gateways lower then I'm gonna start losing my faith in Blizzard's balancing logic :\
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They could just leave the zealot build time alone and reduce the Stalker / Sentry build time from a standard gateway. It wouldn't make 2 gate zealot any faster or dangerous but it would give the defender an advantage in PvP as soon as their CyCore is down :S
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You realize why there's warpgates in the first place? P units are bad, alone they can't do anything to any of the other races T1 units. The reason P has WG's is to be able to choose the unit composition you need at that very moment in the game. For T1 units to work at all you need the perfect balance of Stalker, Zealot, and Sentry otherwise no matter what you do Z and T T1 units will roll you.
Both T and Z require simple unit compositions and it isn't too complicated in terms of balance. You have Roach / Hydra for Z and you have Marine / Marauder as T, the actual ratio between the two isn't so severe as to needing to make an instant decision on the fly as it is for P.
And even so, this doesn't sound like it would fix PvP...It's a mirror matchup...if you make gateway units build slightly faster there would still be ways for WG rush to abuse regular gateway build and once it got to that point it would go straight back into a WG v WG rush, whether or not it would be a 4 gate or not isn't the problem.
And to be honest, 4 gating isn't THAT huge of a problem. It's easy to defend - people just get abused by trying to take short cuts or by their lack of focus in force fielding their ramp. If you miss a FF you'll lose. At least the game is decided by skill in micro, it's much more entertaining watching a 4 gate than 2 P's going Coll's and taking the map 
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This is a change I can live with. It'll make proxy gates super strong though.
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Given that you can switch between warpgates and regular gates, seems like there should be a reason to do so. The more i think about this the worse the idea sounds for other match ups, where protoss just turtle till X collossi. Now they'll need less gateways/ have more units.
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as a viewer im very pumped to see this happening. pvp has been very boring and lame for viewers AND players cause skill doesnt matter.
though i like the thought of warp gate being a late/midgame technology. if it would be at twilight council there could be a metagame like in most other matchups (mobile techlow units [warpgate) vs immobile techheavy units [colossi]) this could be quite interesting.
will the buildtime of a warp gate increase? because proxy gates are (too) powerful even in these days - never saw a pro winning againt those inbase proxygates.
thx blizzard for doing this! :>
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On April 22 2011 17:39 Elefanto wrote:
but what happens then to the highly entertaining, difficult to pull off 4 gate rush strategy?
LOL! Oh good lord, I cant even tell if this is trolling, and thats sad.
Glad to see blizzard sees it as a problem too, looking forward to the patch
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On April 22 2011 18:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
I really doubt they'll decrease unit build times for gateways. They nerfed zealot gateway build time twice already 'cause 2gate was "too strong."
If they seriously just undo all that by making unit build times for gateways lower then I'm gonna start losing my faith in Blizzard's balancing logic :\
2 Gate will be much weaker on the bigger maps we have now. At least as a terran, I feel that if I scout by a reasonable time, I should be able to wall off and hold off the zealots a decent amount of the time. Abviously it wouldn't be easy to hold off, but I think that it'd be less obnoxious than 4-gate. I don't know about zerg though.
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I don't think this is something that should be fixed
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On April 22 2011 18:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
I really doubt they'll decrease unit build times for gateways. They nerfed zealot gateway build time twice already 'cause 2gate was "too strong."
If they seriously just undo all that by making unit build times for gateways lower then I'm gonna start losing my faith in Blizzard's balancing logic :\
Perhaps not for Zealots considering the strength of 2gate, but I think a buff for Stalker and Sentry Gateway build time would be quite helpful in holding off 4gate pressure in PvP while maintaining some sense of balance in the other matchups. IMO, I don't think Stalker+Sentry rushes would be too powerful with only Gateways.
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they said nothing about making gateways build FASTER then warp gate....
they said they would reduce the build time of gateways
to lazy to look up exact numbers but for example
gateway unit = 40 sec
warp gate unit = 32 sec
new gateway unit build time = 35 seconds
delaying warp gate tech by 20-30 seconds for example may give 2-3 gate robo timings a better chance of fending off 4 gate
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On April 22 2011 18:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
I really doubt they'll decrease unit build times for gateways. They nerfed zealot gateway build time twice already 'cause 2gate was "too strong."
If they seriously just undo all that by making unit build times for gateways lower then I'm gonna start losing my faith in Blizzard's balancing logic :\
In all fairness, with the current state of the game I would take this change. 2gate is pretty strong but it is not stronger than the 4gate in theory. It is simply faster there, but if you see it you can counter it easier than a 4gate.
Proxy 2 gate won't be much of a difference I think. It will be slightly harder to deal with but still, a very well executed 4 gate is just as hard to stop and most of the time less allin.
I don't know. I am glad that Blizzard considers a chance. And so far they didn't make big mistakes while balancing.
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On April 22 2011 18:04 ArvickHero wrote:
Increase the amount of time it takes for a unit to warp-in while decreasing warp-gate cool-down time proportionally. Gives defender opportunity to kill warping-in units.
This would make by far the most sense, therefore I doubt it will be implemented. 
Because if they wanted to make THIS, they could've made it a long time ago...since it's so astonishingly simple. Units warped above forcefields would be free kills and 4 gate would be effectively dead. And the overall macro-balance wouldn't have to be touched in the slightest.
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My solution to warpgates:
-Warpgate tech decreases building time of gateway units coming out of normal gateways to around 23s (current warpgate cooldown) and have warpgate cooldown to around 28s.
Numbers can be played around. The idea is having the toss choose between ease of reinforcing and higher production rate.
-Warpgates only fully activated after 1 round of cooldown after changing from gateways.
This is to prevent a burst in production by switching between warpgate and gateway modes.
This solution will allow production of gateway units to be the same, only nerfing the offensive capabilities of warpgate slightly. (Toss will need an extra warpgate to compensate the loss of production if they decide to push using warpgates for reinforcement)
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EPT
