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Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits. |
On April 12 2011 05:16 Jyxz wrote:
Did you know vegan diets lead to depression, and most vegetarian diets make you weak?
Grains are actually kinda terrible for you... they are like gasoline, sure if your going to run a marathon get some carbs, but if your a starcraft 2 player you need mostly vegetables and meat.
I'd have a lot more respect for vegans if they didnt eat meat substitutes. By eating meat substitutes your saying you like meat you just think its immoral to eat it. Without predators there would be no need for evolution past the point of being a blob... Well, I as a vegetarian went to the gym all last summer and gained some considerable muscle mass so I'd say your first point there is invalid. It's harder to build muscle on a lower protein diet, but not impossible. Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid.
To your second point: Yes, meat does taste good. There are few things I would say taste better than bacon. And yes, I believe eating it is immoral. So what? If I eat substitutes that are more environmentally friendly, and still get some enjoyment from their similarity to meat products, what's so bad about that? It sounds like a win-win to me.
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My mother was a vegetarian for quite a while in the 80s; then she met my dad, who's basically as big a carnivore as they come. I was thus raised in a meat-loving home, and I still love meat. I doubt I could ever give it up completely, but I recent times I have cut down on meat consumption to 2-3 times a week. This has mostly been for economic reasons, as meat is just so damn expensive.
I have the greatest respect for vegetarians and vegans. When me and my friends cook together we always cook vegan and it's great. I just have the occasional craving for a bacon+beef burger. With regards to health, by biology teacher told me that there are two types of people for whom meat is needed/recommended: 1) pregnant women (unless you really, REALLY plan your diet) and 2) athletes who train 25+ hours a week. Everyone else should be fine without.
As said I think meat will always be a part of my diet. Then again I said that about chocolate, candy and crisps and I haven't touched those for 3 weeks and don't miss 'em. In order not to be hypocritical I will be vegetarian for a week. Not vegan: I need my morning yogurt!
No meat for me till Monday @ midnight.
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On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:16 Jyxz wrote:
Did you know vegan diets lead to depression, and most vegetarian diets make you weak?
Grains are actually kinda terrible for you... they are like gasoline, sure if your going to run a marathon get some carbs, but if your a starcraft 2 player you need mostly vegetables and meat.
I'd have a lot more respect for vegans if they didnt eat meat substitutes. By eating meat substitutes your saying you like meat you just think its immoral to eat it. Without predators there would be no need for evolution past the point of being a blob... Well, I as a vegetarian went to the gym all last summer and gained some considerable muscle mass so I'd say your first point there is invalid. It's harder to build muscle on a lower protein diet, but not impossible. Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid. To your second point: Yes, meat does taste good. There are few things I would say taste better than bacon. And yes, I believe eating it is immoral. So what? If I eat substitutes that are more environmentally friendly, and still get some enjoyment from their similarity to meat products, what's so bad about that? It sounds like a win-win to me.
Possible to do, yep it is. I would wager most are unaware of how to balance their diet to get all the nutrients they need to do this. I know I tried darn hard and was unable to do so.
That said, on your bacon comment. If god himself comes down and tells me eating bacon is immoral....I will probably eat it anyhow. :D
But that said..MORE Recipes people! FFS.
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On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:16 Jyxz wrote:
Did you know vegan diets lead to depression, and most vegetarian diets make you weak?
Grains are actually kinda terrible for you... they are like gasoline, sure if your going to run a marathon get some carbs, but if your a starcraft 2 player you need mostly vegetables and meat.
I'd have a lot more respect for vegans if they didnt eat meat substitutes. By eating meat substitutes your saying you like meat you just think its immoral to eat it. Without predators there would be no need for evolution past the point of being a blob... Well, I as a vegetarian went to the gym all last summer and gained some considerable muscle mass so I'd say your first point there is invalid. It's harder to build muscle on a lower protein diet, but not impossible. Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid. To your second point: Yes, meat does taste good. There are few things I would say taste better than bacon. And yes, I believe eating it is immoral. So what? If I eat substitutes that are more environmentally friendly, and still get some enjoyment from their similarity to meat products, what's so bad about that? It sounds like a win-win to me.
What bothers me is the elitist attitude of vegans who look down on other vegans/vegetarians that eat meat substitutes. Yeah fresh unprocessed food is better for you and the environment but sometimes it's really nice to have the convenience of a frozen veggie patty or something. At least we're making a conscious effort to live more humanely, we're all on the same team here!
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On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:
Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid.
I don't want to sound paranoid, but I dare to say that carbs are shown in the bottom of the food pyramid because they are cheap to produce. A proper pyramid would show vegetables at the bottom, nuts and legumes along with fish and meats in the middle and carbs at the top. You don't need to eat more than 1 serving of carbs a day if you're not an athlete.
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On April 12 2011 04:59 Charger wrote:
I have a serious question. Why are insects, plants, fish, eggs, etc ok to eat but not chicken or steak?
To my knowledge, its due to the widely-spread use of hormones and unnatural ways of "beefing up" (no pun intended) the products for maximizing profits. Meat products as we know them today sometimes come from facilities who treat the animals with cruelty, but more-likely the use of growth hormones; giving the cows/chickens flouridated water or giving them food that wasn't organically grown (with no poisoned fertilizers/water).
Personally I went vegetarian for a while until I found some organic farms and ranchs who make sure to give the animals proper care, and who refuse to use anything on their animals they wouldn't ingest themselves. By comparison, Fish/Insects/Plants are usually not treated in such a way, and there's not really any farms or ranches who would raise masses of fish with growth hormones (at least I've never heard of extensive "fish-ranches" anywhere). Eggs are the one exception I found that was linked to the chicken thing. There are however also eggs available with no hormones and that have been laid by chickens that were treated with great care and not fed bad things.
One problem I've had with the vegetarian/vegan diet is that its no longer a sound philosophy. While "organic" and "hormone treatment" can be avoided by reading labels, making sure of things like "during the animals' lives, were they fed anything that had poisons or additives? what about if they drank flouridated/poisoned water?" are far more difficult to track. However these conditions are in fact against vegetarian/vegan philosophy.
Another problem is that nearly all produce (at least in the USA) is grown with fertilizers poisoned with various compounds, given water that's been poisoned with various chemicals, and then treated with various products once more for shipping/preserving. If you want to look for yourself, the amount of shit they put in our food/water is staggering. They literally reach everything that's ever been grown, fed, drank water, or that uses water in its creation.
Sources
List of a few most-common chemicals in food/drink that have a high chance of causing life-threatening conditions
What they package your food in also is extremely harmful and wide-spread in their use.
A small list of food/drink that are poisoned with at least sodium flouride. Most of them contain more contaminants but this is purely the flouride levels.
Another issue I have is the recent studies that show the side effects of soy products (soy protein, soy substitutes, excessive ingestion of tofu, etc). These are widely promoted in vegetarian/vegan diets because of their ability to substitute for protein deficiency that is a known risk of this change of diet. The effects can be pretty extreme and even life-threatening. A side-note some people ask is, "Well what about asian diets? Haven't they used soy for a staple of their diets for centuries?" The answer lies in HOW Asia prepares this soy. Fermentation of the soy products is usually how Asian dishes are prepared and this is thought to be a natural way of removing these harmful properties of the soy. Personally, I played it safe and killed off all soy in my diet other than the occassional use of soy sauce for flavor.
Source
Dangers of soy for men by webmd
A longer article about the dangers of soy for men.
All in all though, there should be no differentiation between "vegetarian/vegan" and the "meat-eaters" in my opinion. Really there's only 2 kinds of dieting methods, conscious and not. Conscious eaters are aware of the poisons out there, aware of the corrupt methods used by the food industry as a whole (not discriminating meat from vegetable or grain, its all corrupt equally), and make their choices on what they eat and drink based on information that will allow them to avoid contaminants. Not conscious dieters eat anything and everything with no regard for the consequences of what they're eating coming to mind.
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I'm going to bed now but when i wake up i want to see many a recipe, then i will edit them into the OP so they will all be in one convienient place for our eyes, among other things, to feast upon.
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My question is for the people that feel for the animals... or just don't like meat because u feel its immoral ... or whatever ur belief is. Anyway back to the question. I do not have any vegetarian friends or vegan friends.. i have met a few and I have always wanted to ask this question. If I live in the mountains somewhere.. and i shoot my own deer and use EVERYTHING this deer has givin me .. I mean everything serves a purpose .. I mean what is so wrong about that? I understand there are some hunters out there that kill deer cut the antlers and leave the meat there.. but there are a lot of hunters where I come from Indiana and also West Virgina where we use EVERYTHING the deer brings us... we throw nothing away. What is so wrong about that? Now I can see some of the slaughter houses that treat there animals horrid.. like keeping them in small pens.. and so forth. But in Indiana where i used to live my uncle used to work in a family owned slaughter house.. we would kill the cow in the most humane way we can.. and as I said it was different 10 years ago they where "happier" cows if this is possible had TONS of room fed GREAT grain / food we would take care of the cows 100% it would be our first thing in the morning we did and the last thing before we went to bed. I guess it all comes down to are u against all the people that hunt / kill animals for food.. or just the major big corporations that do it in a "inhumane" way?
I can see your point of views.. i am a very open minded person in that scenes .. but can u see my point of view also?
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On April 12 2011 05:34 DNB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:
Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid.
I don't want to sound paranoid, but I dare to say that carbs are shown in the bottom of the food pyramid because they are cheap to produce. A proper pyramid would show vegetables at the bottom, nuts and legumes along with fish and meats in the middle and carbs at the top. You don't need to eat more than 1 serving of carbs a day if you're not an athlete.
You definitely need more than one serving of carbs a day unless you are not moving at all. Lots of vegetables is not always good as your body can't use all the nutrients which you liver needs to break down. If you don't need a lot of carbs you simple reduce them not replace them. A proper pyramid depends on your lifestyle/what your doing. I need the carbs, unless I eat carbs at least 3 times a day I feel sluggish. Carbohydrates are what gives you energy; eat healthy ones and you will not gain weight.
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On April 12 2011 05:39 SeizeTheDay wrote:
My question is for the people that feel for the animals... or just don't like meat because u feel its immoral ... or whatever ur belief is. Anyway back to the question. I do not have any vegetarian friends or vegan friends.. i have met a few and I have always wanted to ask this question. If I live in the mountains somewhere.. and i shoot my own deer and use EVERYTHING this deer has givin me .. I mean everything serves a purpose .. I mean what is so wrong about that? I understand there are some hunters out there that kill deer cut the antlers and leave the meat there.. but there are a lot of hunters where I come from Indiana and also West Virgina where we use EVERYTHING the deer brings us... we throw nothing away. What is so wrong about that? Now I can see some of the slaughter houses that treat there animals horrid.. like keeping them in small pens.. and so forth. But in Indiana where i used to live my uncle used to work in a family owned slaughter house.. we would kill the cow in the most humane way we can.. and as I said it was different 10 years ago they where "happier" cows if this is possible had TONS of room fed GREAT grain / food we would take care of the cows 100% it would be our first thing in the morning we did and the last thing before we went to bed. I guess it all comes down to are u against all the people that hunt / kill animals for food.. or just the major big corporations that do it in a "inhumane" way?
I can see your point of views.. i am a very open minded person in that scenes .. but can u see my point of view also?
Certainly, I mean life consumes life its inevitable. "Someday you will die somehow and something's going to steal your carbon." (modest mouse). The problem is the vast majority of animals raised for consumption ARE raised inhumanely. Hunter's who hunt for food and not sport are a-okay in my book although I would never choose to do so myself. As a being with enough intelligence for rational thought I'm given a choice and I simply feel better choosing not to eat meat. If you see things differently I can't really argue with you but all I ask is that we make an effort to treat the animals better wherever possible.
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On April 12 2011 05:43 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:34 DNB wrote:On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:
Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid.
I don't want to sound paranoid, but I dare to say that carbs are shown in the bottom of the food pyramid because they are cheap to produce. A proper pyramid would show vegetables at the bottom, nuts and legumes along with fish and meats in the middle and carbs at the top. You don't need to eat more than 1 serving of carbs a day if you're not an athlete. You definitely need more than one serving of carbs a day unless you are not moving at all. Lots of vegetables is not always good as your body can't use all the nutrients which you liver needs to break down. If you don't need a lot of carbs you simple reduce them not replace them. A proper pyramid depends on your lifestyle/what your doing. I need the carbs, unless I eat carbs at least 3 times a day I feel sluggish. Carbohydrates are what gives you energy; eat healthy ones and you will not gain weight.
Funny... You're the exact opposite of me. Even 1 serving of carbs makes me lethargic and tired, and any longer periods my bodyfat increases as well (even if I do fullbody compound lifts and cardio).
Whatever floats your boat I guess...
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On April 12 2011 05:09 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:45 Mulletarian wrote:On April 12 2011 04:36 frogurt wrote:On April 12 2011 04:32 Mulletarian wrote:Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. -- Albert Einstein Good thing he stuck to math. Nothing has benefited human health, survival and evolution as much as the omnivorous diet. Sorry to perchance derail your thread, but that quote was provocative enough. That was during prehistoric times, now we have the knowledge to sustain ourselves nutritionally. If we evolve to a vegetarian diet i assure we won't turn back into monkeys. I'm sorry, but that holier than thou attitude won't help you in your quest to have humanity 'evolve' to a vegan diet. It's an emotional statement and you won't convince anyone with half a mind. Edit; not to mention it's pretty much bordering to flamebait, if you look at some of the responses in this thread. Almost makes me think it's just trolling. An odd response from someone who only eats mullets! My stance is that there are plenty of annoying people on both sides of the fence. Do what makes you happy, I'll do the same, don't push your beliefs onto me. Personally I've done the veggie thing for a few months, it was okay, but I've switched back. Was a good experience, glad I did it, but I prefer a wider diet.
On that note I'll bow out, I've said my part. I'll stick to my mullet diet thank you. I feel it makes me morally superior, and I'd prefer it if you all stayed vegans; more mullets for me.
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On April 12 2011 05:36 sCCrooked wrote:
...
(at least I've never heard of extensive "fish-ranches" anywhere)
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But they do exist!
Mariculture
Fish farming
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I have a question, I was under the impression that eat meat substitutes is actually worse for the environment(as these require a high amount of processing and energy thus to create). Is this true?Or am I being deluded by Anti-Vegans, I am curious about this. I am also wondering how many do not eat meat substitues as a result of this but survive on........other means?
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I see alot of discussion about how many carbs you need a day, now I've got a question: What are carbs and what food contains them?
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On April 12 2011 04:28 visual77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:25 DNB wrote:On April 12 2011 04:20 Yizuo wrote:
I feel you... It's super annoying when people find out you are vegetarian and try to argue with you about it. Or even worse, think they have this shit figured out and try to illuminate you why it's dumb...
This goes often both ways I guess. I know lots of vegans with this holier than thou-attitude when they start bashing and arguing against someone who wants to eat a diet with some meat in it. I've noticed a very strong correlation between how long someone has been vegan / vegetarian and how chill they are about it. Recent converts are jackasses and make long time vegetarians look bad. That's why I tend to hate them just as much (if not more) than the non-vegetarians they hassle.
As a vegetarian for 11 years, I have never personally witnessed another vegetarian or vegan giving someone crap for what they eat. However, I have plenty of personal experience with vegetarians and vegans getting shit on just for saying they do not eat meat. And it's a big reason I only mention my diet out of necessity. I also omit directly saying it whenever possible to avoid stupid arguments, like if I'm with coworkers or friends or whatever and we're deciding where to get some food, if they don't offer anything vegetarian, I'll just offer a different suggestion and say I feel like eating there more. If pressed about why, I'll try to say I like the variety better, and pressed more I'll say I'm a vegetarian.
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On April 12 2011 04:33 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:25 DNB wrote:On April 12 2011 04:20 Yizuo wrote:
I feel you... It's super annoying when people find out you are vegetarian and try to argue with you about it. Or even worse, think they have this shit figured out and try to illuminate you why it's dumb...
This goes often both ways I guess. I know lots of vegans with this holier than thou-attitude when they start bashing and arguing against someone who wants to eat a diet with some meat in it. On April 12 2011 04:24 frogurt wrote:
Eggs are great for protein, but can be replaced by beans, tofu, chickpeas, spinach, peas, broccoli etc. Seriously? Do you even have an idea how much you would have to eat those to get even a slightly significant amount of protein? Beans and tofu are fine, but don't offer the full amino-profile as eggs do. If it's not a problem, eat your eggs bro. Tofu and soy-protein in general offers a pretty damn good amino profile, actually. There's 8 essential amino acids (there are 20, but your body can synthesize the other 12) Soybeans offers all of them, along with red meat and ... a few other things. Also Black beans for life <3
I really don't like when vegetarians suggest things like peas, broccoli, and cucumbers as good sources of protein. It makes vegetarians look terribly uninformed. Beans, and especially soy beans (for reasons mentioned above) are good sources of protein. It also is worth noting that the majority of people eating meat consume much more protein than required for a healthy living.
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On April 12 2011 06:04 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:28 visual77 wrote:On April 12 2011 04:25 DNB wrote:On April 12 2011 04:20 Yizuo wrote:
I feel you... It's super annoying when people find out you are vegetarian and try to argue with you about it. Or even worse, think they have this shit figured out and try to illuminate you why it's dumb...
This goes often both ways I guess. I know lots of vegans with this holier than thou-attitude when they start bashing and arguing against someone who wants to eat a diet with some meat in it. I've noticed a very strong correlation between how long someone has been vegan / vegetarian and how chill they are about it. Recent converts are jackasses and make long time vegetarians look bad. That's why I tend to hate them just as much (if not more) than the non-vegetarians they hassle. As a vegetarian for 11 years, I have never personally witnessed another vegetarian or vegan giving someone crap for what they eat. However, I have plenty of personal experience with vegetarians and vegans getting shit on just for saying they do not eat meat. And it's a big reason I only mention my diet out of necessity. I also omit directly saying it whenever possible to avoid stupid arguments, like if I'm with coworkers or friends or whatever and we're deciding where to get some food, if they don't offer anything vegetarian, I'll just offer a different suggestion and say I feel like eating there more. If pressed about why, I'll try to say I like the variety better, and pressed more I'll say I'm a vegetarian.
Sorry for any confusion, but the bolded part is not what I meant I've encountered. The reason I tend to dislike most recent converts is because of how they treat non-vegetarians. They tend to be very preachy and condescending towards the non-vegetarians and I don't like that, even though I share their same diet. The reason why I added that I may hate them even more than the non-vegetarians hate them is because this holier-than-thou attitude reflects really poorly on me. It is not uncommon for me to be given some icy looks and unpleasant words from non-vegetarians upon finding out I am vegetarian. They tend to think more on their encounters with the preachy vegetarians and instantly get defensive, thinking I'm about to lecture them on their diet.
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On April 12 2011 05:34 DNB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:27 Freak705 wrote:
Most of your calories should come from carbs, there's a reason why grains are at the bottom of the food pyramid.
I don't want to sound paranoid, but I dare to say that carbs are shown in the bottom of the food pyramid because they are cheap to produce. A proper pyramid would show vegetables at the bottom, nuts and legumes along with fish and meats in the middle and carbs at the top. You don't need to eat more than 1 serving of carbs a day if you're not an athlete.
The "food pyramid" is pretty ridiculous in the first place. About carbs... there isn't just one kind of carbohydrate. Think of complex carbohydrates rather than simple, such as wheat rather than white bread.
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