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Vegetarian/Vegan Thread - Page 9

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Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits.
shawster
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada2485 Posts
April 11 2011 23:48 GMT
#161
i've always wondered how many people turned vegetarian after fighting the butcher in D1
divito
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1213 Posts
April 11 2011 23:50 GMT
#162
This movement is just as convoluted as religion.

Some do it for the "health benefits" which most students would probably laugh at; some do it because it's some type of political statement for animals, as to what it accomplishes, who knows.

User was temp banned for this post.
Skype: divito7
Indrium
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2236 Posts
April 11 2011 23:57 GMT
#163
On April 12 2011 08:50 divito wrote:
This movement is just as convoluted as religion.

Some do it for the "health benefits" which most students would probably laugh at; some do it because it's some type of political statement for animals, as to what it accomplishes, who knows.


Then leave.

I've been thinking about going vegetarian, recently. I did it for about a year, but I stopped because my family couldn't really afford to not eat meat. However, I'm perfectly within an ability to do so now. Somebody said something pretty interesting to me recently, "If you're having hesitations, but believe it morally, you're probably just addicted to meat." Does anyone else feel like this is true?
Kamais_Ookin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada4218 Posts
April 12 2011 00:02 GMT
#164
On April 12 2011 08:48 shawster wrote:
i've always wondered how many people turned vegetarian after fighting the butcher in D1
Hahaha, I'm sure there are many.
I <3 Plexa.
teacash
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada494 Posts
April 12 2011 00:08 GMT
#165
i've been a vegetarian for 4 years. debates on forums about it are always so pathetic though
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
April 12 2011 00:11 GMT
#166
On April 12 2011 08:43 Coutcha wrote:
whats th difference between Raw Vegan and vegan?
(you get more superpower ? )


Dunno, I guess it's basically just vegan diet without sugary junk food, starchy grains, potatoes, roasting, frying or baking. Some people say it kills digestive enzymes to cook food or something, but I don't know anything about that, but I guess it makes intuitive sense to me that frying, roasting and baking probably aren't the best things to do. Seems to correlate with the current stance of nutrionists at any rate.

I super seyan now yah

On April 12 2011 08:57 Indrium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2011 08:50 divito wrote:
This movement is just as convoluted as religion.

Some do it for the "health benefits" which most students would probably laugh at; some do it because it's some type of political statement for animals, as to what it accomplishes, who knows.


Then leave.

I've been thinking about going vegetarian, recently. I did it for about a year, but I stopped because my family couldn't really afford to not eat meat. However, I'm perfectly within an ability to do so now. Somebody said something pretty interesting to me recently, "If you're having hesitations, but believe it morally, you're probably just addicted to meat." Does anyone else feel like this is true?


Well, just reading this thread you can see people finding meat and, (in my case at least) dairy and eggs, a lot less appetising as time goes by. I don't know about addictive in a physical or psychological sense though, I don't know enough about that to comment. I do think people mix up the signals for hunger and cravings a lot though, and people will crave meat and fatty foods a lot at first if they stop eating them.

Probably the best way to do it is to transition gradually if you are wanting to make the switch. When I switched from vegetarian to vegan a long time ago I actually did it because I realised that apart from milk in tea I just wasn't eating dairy anymore, so I didn't suffer from the same kind of cravings a lot of other people report when becoming a vegan.

Theres a lot of scientific debate about the addictive properties of cheese and chocolate that I don't really want to discuss because of how divisive, both casually and scientifically, statements like "milk is bad for you" or "chocolate is addictive" can be. Can be interesting to read about though.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Ambulation
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
126 Posts
April 12 2011 00:15 GMT
#167
On April 12 2011 08:34 frogurt wrote:

I kind of see your point but it think you're being too critical. Not eating meat is always better than nothing, even if you do re-direct your business to dairy.


Well I mean that's my point - not eating meat may make you feel better about yourself, but if by being a vegetarian you have increased your dairy intake to substitute the meat you were eating previously, then you are in fact doing more to harm animals than reducing the suffering. Take eggs for example. In order for their to be a laying hen for a farming warehouse for egg-laying hens - they purchase female chicks in order to produce the eggs. However, because the birth rate for male and female chicks is the same as humans (50/50) - half of the males that are born are discarded - sent to the grinders. Then they are debeaked, a painful process, in order to reduce pecking, which would not occur as frequently if they were allowed to roam freely with no limits. And then after a life of laying eggs, where they are fed a diet that makes them constantly hungry but only just nutritious enough for them to be able to lay at maximum efficiency (and worse if they're kept in battery cages), after that they are sent to the slaughterhouses for food - where the process is exactly the same as chickens bred for meat.

+ Show Spoiler +
Most people agree that it is wrong to inflict pain or suffering on animals for no good reason. Most people agree that hens kept in battery cages are suffering. But what about free range? Barn laid? Organic? You would assume that under these systems the hens live happy lives out in open fields, lives free of suffering, and they only die naturally from old age. This image is reinforced by cartoons of hens roaming freely, and people talking lots about the problems of battery farms, but not about the problems with free range.

In order to get laying hens you need fertile eggs. Half of these hatch into male roosters. Becasue roosters don't lay eggs, they are of no use to the egg industry. The day-old-chicks are either gassed with gasses such as carbon dioxide or are killed by instantaneous fragmentation.1 So everytime a free range farmer buys a laying hen, a male rooster is killed. Surplus or 'substandard' chicks are also killed. 2

Free range hens may have their beaks trimmed 3 with a hot blade or laser when they are less then ten days old. Debeaking is an extremely painful process that is done without any pain killers. Debeaked hens show forms of neuroma indicating chronic pain.4

According to the Brambell Committee, a group of veterinarians and other experts appointed by the British Parliament: “Between the horn and bone is a thin layer of highly sensitive soft tissue, resembling the quick of the human nail. The hot knife used in debeaking cuts through this complex of horn, bone and sensitive tissue causing severe pain.”

Even free range farms may send their entire flocks to the slaughterhouse when they start laying fewer eggs 3. Sometimes the farmer may kill the hens on farm, by holding the bird upside down and twisting their neck 5.

Organic, free-range and cage-free hens all end their lives at the same slaughterhouses as battery hens.

When they stop producing eggs, the chickens are caught by their legs, thrown into crates, and transported to the slaughterhouse where each bird is shackled upside down to a chain. As the chain moves along, the chicken’s head dips into a waterbath stunner. Workers then slice across the back of the chicken’s neck 6. The waterbath stunner does not actually kill the bird. Occasionally a bird may regain consciousness, but be unable to move because the spinal cord has been cut – and the slaughterhouse worker will not be able to tell that the chicken is awake and aware. Some chickens die miserably through having their heads pulled off by the “automatic head puller” machine while still conscious 7.

All egg, regardless of whether they are free-range or battery farmed cause hens to suffer and die. Male hens are killed by instantaneous fragmentation, birds may be debeaked and female hens are slaughtered when they stop producing eggs.

We all agree that it is wrong to cause unneccesary suffering and death to nonhuman animals. At the least, this must mean that it is wrong to kill for reasons of pleasure, convencience or habit. Using eggs, and other animal products, causes suffering and death to billions of nonhuman animals. And our only justification for using these products is that we derive pleasure from how they taste, look or feel, it is convenient to use them or it is habit to use them. This is not a good justification.

Even in the most 'humane' conditions, animals are still treated as nothing more than economic commodities, nothing more then property. Animals status as property presents many moral and practical problems, and this property status is reinforced when you buy animal products. Click here to learn more.

Free range eggs are not the solution. The solution, is veganism. Vegans do not wear, consume or use animal products such as meat, dairy, eggs, honey, leather, fur and silk. Going vegan means that you will not participate in the suffering and death of more than 52 billion animals every year 8.

References:

1) Animal welfare (layer hens) code of welfare 2005, 3.1 Hatchery Management

2) Animal welfare (broiler chickens: fully housed) code of welfare 2003

3) "Bio Eggs Product Standards" Eco Egg Company Limited, May 14, 2006

4) W. Temple and T.M. Foster, "The welfare status of egg production in New Zealand" Proceedings of the New Zealand Society of Animal Production 53 (1993): 215-217

5) "Choosing Chooks. Part 2" New Zealand lifestyle farmer April 2006 30-31

6) Animal welfare (commercial slaughter) code of welfare 2006: draft code of welfare 10 (Wellington: NAWAC, 2006)

7) N.G. Gregory, J.K. Robins and T.A. Stewart, "Blood spots in chicken meat after slaughter: a humane alternative" New Zealand veterinary journal 47 (1999): 77-78

8) Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, 2003


The milk industry is much the same. See this video for example:

TheRhox
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada868 Posts
April 12 2011 00:19 GMT
#168
Haypro is also a vegetarian, you should include him in the list of awesome ppl ^.^
Freak705
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada231 Posts
April 12 2011 00:19 GMT
#169
On April 12 2011 07:47 Ambulation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2011 04:29 frogurt wrote:
I'm happy to see any rejection of meat.

But pescetarian that claim to be vegetarians can be irritating, it's like when someone says "i'm in silver league, but i'm good enough to be gold." Just don't claim to be something you're not.


I kind of feel the same way about vegetarians that claim they are doing it for the animals. A lot of vegetarians, as a result of giving up meat, resort to dairy to substitute their dietary needs and increase their intake of milk and cheese and eggs, resulting in far more suffering to the suffering of animals than if they were eating meat and less milk and eggs. The milk and egg industries cause more suffering to animals and a simple Google search will verify this.

So a vegetarian may claim they're doing it for health reasons. But it's hypocritical for them to claim that they are doing it for the benefit of the animals.
You can choose to buy milk or eggs from better sources, for instance free range eggs or from a local egg farm (as my family back home does). Personally I will do this once I'm a little more affluent, but right now I'm a broke-ass university student just looking to get by.
TheRhox
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada868 Posts
April 12 2011 00:23 GMT
#170
On April 12 2011 08:50 divito wrote:
This movement is just as convoluted as religion.

Some do it for the "health benefits" which most students would probably laugh at; some do it because it's some type of political statement for animals, as to what it accomplishes, who knows.

User was temp banned for this post.



It's amazing how much stupidity and ignorance someone can cram into one post
EscPlan9
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2777 Posts
April 12 2011 00:27 GMT
#171
On April 12 2011 09:15 Ambulation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2011 08:34 frogurt wrote:

I kind of see your point but it think you're being too critical. Not eating meat is always better than nothing, even if you do re-direct your business to dairy.


Well I mean that's my point - not eating meat may make you feel better about yourself, but if by being a vegetarian you have increased your dairy intake to substitute the meat you were eating previously, then you are in fact doing more to harm animals than reducing the suffering. Take eggs for example. In order for their to be a laying hen for a farming warehouse for egg-laying hens - they purchase female chicks in order to produce the eggs. However, because the birth rate for male and female chicks is the same as humans (50/50) - half of the males that are born are discarded - sent to the grinders. Then they are debeaked, a painful process, in order to reduce pecking, which would not occur as frequently if they were allowed to roam freely with no limits. And then after a life of laying eggs, where they are fed a diet that makes them constantly hungry but only just nutritious enough for them to be able to lay at maximum efficiency (and worse if they're kept in battery cages), after that they are sent to the slaughterhouses for food - where the process is exactly the same as chickens bred for meat.

+ Show Spoiler +
Most people agree that it is wrong to inflict pain or suffering on animals for no good reason. Most people agree that hens kept in battery cages are suffering. But what about free range? Barn laid? Organic? You would assume that under these systems the hens live happy lives out in open fields, lives free of suffering, and they only die naturally from old age. This image is reinforced by cartoons of hens roaming freely, and people talking lots about the problems of battery farms, but not about the problems with free range.

In order to get laying hens you need fertile eggs. Half of these hatch into male roosters. Becasue roosters don't lay eggs, they are of no use to the egg industry. The day-old-chicks are either gassed with gasses such as carbon dioxide or are killed by instantaneous fragmentation.1 So everytime a free range farmer buys a laying hen, a male rooster is killed. Surplus or 'substandard' chicks are also killed. 2

Free range hens may have their beaks trimmed 3 with a hot blade or laser when they are less then ten days old. Debeaking is an extremely painful process that is done without any pain killers. Debeaked hens show forms of neuroma indicating chronic pain.4

According to the Brambell Committee, a group of veterinarians and other experts appointed by the British Parliament: “Between the horn and bone is a thin layer of highly sensitive soft tissue, resembling the quick of the human nail. The hot knife used in debeaking cuts through this complex of horn, bone and sensitive tissue causing severe pain.”

Even free range farms may send their entire flocks to the slaughterhouse when they start laying fewer eggs 3. Sometimes the farmer may kill the hens on farm, by holding the bird upside down and twisting their neck 5.

Organic, free-range and cage-free hens all end their lives at the same slaughterhouses as battery hens.

When they stop producing eggs, the chickens are caught by their legs, thrown into crates, and transported to the slaughterhouse where each bird is shackled upside down to a chain. As the chain moves along, the chicken’s head dips into a waterbath stunner. Workers then slice across the back of the chicken’s neck 6. The waterbath stunner does not actually kill the bird. Occasionally a bird may regain consciousness, but be unable to move because the spinal cord has been cut – and the slaughterhouse worker will not be able to tell that the chicken is awake and aware. Some chickens die miserably through having their heads pulled off by the “automatic head puller” machine while still conscious 7.

All egg, regardless of whether they are free-range or battery farmed cause hens to suffer and die. Male hens are killed by instantaneous fragmentation, birds may be debeaked and female hens are slaughtered when they stop producing eggs.

We all agree that it is wrong to cause unneccesary suffering and death to nonhuman animals. At the least, this must mean that it is wrong to kill for reasons of pleasure, convencience or habit. Using eggs, and other animal products, causes suffering and death to billions of nonhuman animals. And our only justification for using these products is that we derive pleasure from how they taste, look or feel, it is convenient to use them or it is habit to use them. This is not a good justification.

Even in the most 'humane' conditions, animals are still treated as nothing more than economic commodities, nothing more then property. Animals status as property presents many moral and practical problems, and this property status is reinforced when you buy animal products. Click here to learn more.

Free range eggs are not the solution. The solution, is veganism. Vegans do not wear, consume or use animal products such as meat, dairy, eggs, honey, leather, fur and silk. Going vegan means that you will not participate in the suffering and death of more than 52 billion animals every year 8.

References:

1) Animal welfare (layer hens) code of welfare 2005, 3.1 Hatchery Management

2) Animal welfare (broiler chickens: fully housed) code of welfare 2003

3) "Bio Eggs Product Standards" Eco Egg Company Limited, May 14, 2006

4) W. Temple and T.M. Foster, "The welfare status of egg production in New Zealand" Proceedings of the New Zealand Society of Animal Production 53 (1993): 215-217

5) "Choosing Chooks. Part 2" New Zealand lifestyle farmer April 2006 30-31

6) Animal welfare (commercial slaughter) code of welfare 2006: draft code of welfare 10 (Wellington: NAWAC, 2006)

7) N.G. Gregory, J.K. Robins and T.A. Stewart, "Blood spots in chicken meat after slaughter: a humane alternative" New Zealand veterinary journal 47 (1999): 77-78

8) Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, 2003


The milk industry is much the same. See this video for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdFOUbUZwQ


All fine except for one major assumption: that consumption of dairy has significantly increased from the switch. I infact consume less dairy, especially since I have soy milk instead of regular milk.

Even if dairy consumption has increased for some vegetarians, they still are purchasing a hell of a lot less animal products overall than non-vegetarians.

I cannot tell if you are trolling here, or actually want to argue a point. I think I can speak for most vegetarians here in saying we are not interested in having a full fledged debate on the ethics of vegetarian in a forum. Also, read the notice on the top:


Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits.

Undefeated TL Tecmo Super Bowl League Champion
LessThree
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States78 Posts
April 12 2011 00:30 GMT
#172
On April 12 2011 08:50 divito wrote:
This movement is just as convoluted as religion.

Some do it for the "health benefits" which most students would probably laugh at; some do it because it's some type of political statement for animals, as to what it accomplishes, who knows.

User was temp banned for this post.


Unfortunately, not surprised someone like this would make their way onto this part of the forum. I think vegeterianism/veganism/animal rights activism is one of the more visibly trolled parts of the Internets (though, to be sure, not as trolled as race/politics/sexuality).

On the one hand, non-vegeterian here, but I don't hate anyone that goes vegeterian/vegan. I actually like what some vegeterians/vegans are doing in terms of the food they're producing. The Chicago Diner is one that comes to mind.

Anyone been to The Loving Hut chain of vegan restaurants? I've been once, but I was less than impressed. I doubt I will go back.
I am here for SlayerS_Cella's Big Macs, fried chicken, juggling, and walla walla. :D
Naio
Profile Joined August 2010
27 Posts
April 12 2011 00:31 GMT
#173
I'm not a vegetarian, but am trying to drastically cut down on my meat consumption. I must say, cooking raw vegetables on the stove with a lot of pepper, salt and garlic = awesome. I am interested though, why did many of you choose to become a vegetarian? Health reasons, your preferred lifestyle, environmental reasons?

I myself am eating less meat because it takes significantly more energy to process meat than what it provides, higher global meat consumption has a negative environmental impact, and most of the corporate [American] meat companies do not take care of the animals; the animals are diseased, filthy, and probably unhappy.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
April 12 2011 00:32 GMT
#174
On April 12 2011 09:19 Freak705 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2011 07:47 Ambulation wrote:
On April 12 2011 04:29 frogurt wrote:
I'm happy to see any rejection of meat.

But pescetarian that claim to be vegetarians can be irritating, it's like when someone says "i'm in silver league, but i'm good enough to be gold." Just don't claim to be something you're not.


I kind of feel the same way about vegetarians that claim they are doing it for the animals. A lot of vegetarians, as a result of giving up meat, resort to dairy to substitute their dietary needs and increase their intake of milk and cheese and eggs, resulting in far more suffering to the suffering of animals than if they were eating meat and less milk and eggs. The milk and egg industries cause more suffering to animals and a simple Google search will verify this.

So a vegetarian may claim they're doing it for health reasons. But it's hypocritical for them to claim that they are doing it for the benefit of the animals.
You can choose to buy milk or eggs from better sources, for instance free range eggs or from a local egg farm (as my family back home does). Personally I will do this once I'm a little more affluent, but right now I'm a broke-ass university student just looking to get by.


Read the spoilered text in his post.

I recently watched a movie called Food Inc. which dedicated a portion of it to industrial chicken farmers. The conditions that these chickens and cows live in are truly miserable.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
April 12 2011 00:43 GMT
#175
On April 12 2011 09:27 EscPlan9 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 12 2011 09:15 Ambulation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2011 08:34 frogurt wrote:

I kind of see your point but it think you're being too critical. Not eating meat is always better than nothing, even if you do re-direct your business to dairy.


Well I mean that's my point - not eating meat may make you feel better about yourself, but if by being a vegetarian you have increased your dairy intake to substitute the meat you were eating previously, then you are in fact doing more to harm animals than reducing the suffering. Take eggs for example. In order for their to be a laying hen for a farming warehouse for egg-laying hens - they purchase female chicks in order to produce the eggs. However, because the birth rate for male and female chicks is the same as humans (50/50) - half of the males that are born are discarded - sent to the grinders. Then they are debeaked, a painful process, in order to reduce pecking, which would not occur as frequently if they were allowed to roam freely with no limits. And then after a life of laying eggs, where they are fed a diet that makes them constantly hungry but only just nutritious enough for them to be able to lay at maximum efficiency (and worse if they're kept in battery cages), after that they are sent to the slaughterhouses for food - where the process is exactly the same as chickens bred for meat.

+ Show Spoiler +
Most people agree that it is wrong to inflict pain or suffering on animals for no good reason. Most people agree that hens kept in battery cages are suffering. But what about free range? Barn laid? Organic? You would assume that under these systems the hens live happy lives out in open fields, lives free of suffering, and they only die naturally from old age. This image is reinforced by cartoons of hens roaming freely, and people talking lots about the problems of battery farms, but not about the problems with free range.

In order to get laying hens you need fertile eggs. Half of these hatch into male roosters. Becasue roosters don't lay eggs, they are of no use to the egg industry. The day-old-chicks are either gassed with gasses such as carbon dioxide or are killed by instantaneous fragmentation.1 So everytime a free range farmer buys a laying hen, a male rooster is killed. Surplus or 'substandard' chicks are also killed. 2

Free range hens may have their beaks trimmed 3 with a hot blade or laser when they are less then ten days old. Debeaking is an extremely painful process that is done without any pain killers. Debeaked hens show forms of neuroma indicating chronic pain.4

According to the Brambell Committee, a group of veterinarians and other experts appointed by the British Parliament: “Between the horn and bone is a thin layer of highly sensitive soft tissue, resembling the quick of the human nail. The hot knife used in debeaking cuts through this complex of horn, bone and sensitive tissue causing severe pain.”

Even free range farms may send their entire flocks to the slaughterhouse when they start laying fewer eggs 3. Sometimes the farmer may kill the hens on farm, by holding the bird upside down and twisting their neck 5.

Organic, free-range and cage-free hens all end their lives at the same slaughterhouses as battery hens.

When they stop producing eggs, the chickens are caught by their legs, thrown into crates, and transported to the slaughterhouse where each bird is shackled upside down to a chain. As the chain moves along, the chicken’s head dips into a waterbath stunner. Workers then slice across the back of the chicken’s neck 6. The waterbath stunner does not actually kill the bird. Occasionally a bird may regain consciousness, but be unable to move because the spinal cord has been cut – and the slaughterhouse worker will not be able to tell that the chicken is awake and aware. Some chickens die miserably through having their heads pulled off by the “automatic head puller” machine while still conscious 7.

All egg, regardless of whether they are free-range or battery farmed cause hens to suffer and die. Male hens are killed by instantaneous fragmentation, birds may be debeaked and female hens are slaughtered when they stop producing eggs.

We all agree that it is wrong to cause unneccesary suffering and death to nonhuman animals. At the least, this must mean that it is wrong to kill for reasons of pleasure, convencience or habit. Using eggs, and other animal products, causes suffering and death to billions of nonhuman animals. And our only justification for using these products is that we derive pleasure from how they taste, look or feel, it is convenient to use them or it is habit to use them. This is not a good justification.

Even in the most 'humane' conditions, animals are still treated as nothing more than economic commodities, nothing more then property. Animals status as property presents many moral and practical problems, and this property status is reinforced when you buy animal products. Click here to learn more.

Free range eggs are not the solution. The solution, is veganism. Vegans do not wear, consume or use animal products such as meat, dairy, eggs, honey, leather, fur and silk. Going vegan means that you will not participate in the suffering and death of more than 52 billion animals every year 8.

References:

1) Animal welfare (layer hens) code of welfare 2005, 3.1 Hatchery Management

2) Animal welfare (broiler chickens: fully housed) code of welfare 2003

3) "Bio Eggs Product Standards" Eco Egg Company Limited, May 14, 2006

4) W. Temple and T.M. Foster, "The welfare status of egg production in New Zealand" Proceedings of the New Zealand Society of Animal Production 53 (1993): 215-217

5) "Choosing Chooks. Part 2" New Zealand lifestyle farmer April 2006 30-31

6) Animal welfare (commercial slaughter) code of welfare 2006: draft code of welfare 10 (Wellington: NAWAC, 2006)

7) N.G. Gregory, J.K. Robins and T.A. Stewart, "Blood spots in chicken meat after slaughter: a humane alternative" New Zealand veterinary journal 47 (1999): 77-78

8) Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, 2003


The milk industry is much the same. See this video for example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdFOUbUZwQ


All fine except for one major assumption: that consumption of dairy has significantly increased from the switch. I infact consume less dairy, especially since I have soy milk instead of regular milk.

Even if dairy consumption has increased for some vegetarians, they still are purchasing a hell of a lot less animal products overall than non-vegetarians.

I cannot tell if you are trolling here, or actually want to argue a point. I think I can speak for most vegetarians here in saying we are not interested in having a full fledged debate on the ethics of vegetarian in a forum. Also, read the notice on the top:


Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits.



The old argument I used to do was the "hours of suffering" required to produce animal foods back when I was going through my fanatical "meat is murder" phase. Milk wins. You can get a lot of milk relative to other foods for a small quantity of suffering (time spent alive) for the cow. But I've always thought that these kind of preachy, theoretical attempts to convert meat eaters are the worst...Nothing makes people dig in their heels more than when you challenge their long held beliefs, and nothing makes them dislike you more than if you tell them they are a bad person for holding them. Also it makes what can be an interesting debate into a stubborn battle of opinions where each side feels a moral obligation not to back down or concede ground, which are never nice

I always find I have a lot more interest in the beliefs of people I actually enjoy being around, who discuss their beliefs openly but without judgement, rather than the fanatical people constantly trying to prove me wrong whenever we get onto the subject. So regardless of what kind of position you are trying to extol to others, just lead by example rather than forcing it down peoples throats

P.S I appreciate the irony of judging the way that people judge others :p
My. Copy. Is. Here.
VeganWrath
Profile Joined November 2010
United States17 Posts
April 12 2011 00:45 GMT
#176
Hey hey! I'm so glad you all started this tread! I'm glad to meet you all.

Vegan, happy and healthy for 4.5 years!

Keep up the good work!
x-Catalyst
Profile Joined August 2010
United States921 Posts
April 12 2011 00:51 GMT
#177
Maybe a picture of our lovely Jinro should be added to the op as well? I know he was vegetarian for quite a while but had to give it up when he moved to Korea considering meat and such is used in many of their dishes.
teacash
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada494 Posts
April 12 2011 00:57 GMT
#178
On April 12 2011 09:51 x-Catalyst wrote:
Maybe a picture of our lovely Jinro should be added to the op as well? I know he was vegetarian for quite a while but had to give it up when he moved to Korea considering meat and such is used in many of their dishes.

Yeah korea sounds like one of the worst possible places for food if you don't eat meat.
I'm sure there are nutritious options, they're probably just not always convenient
Ambulation
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
126 Posts
April 12 2011 01:02 GMT
#179
On April 12 2011 09:43 Piy wrote:
The old argument I used to do was the "hours of suffering" required to produce animal foods back when I was going through my fanatical "meat is murder" phase. Milk wins. You can get a lot of milk relative to other foods for a small quantity of suffering (time spent alive) for the cow.


You're not quite correct on these facts:

+ Show Spoiler +
Dairy cows are continually kept pregnant and lactating and their babies are taken away from them when they are only two days old. The life of a dairy cow is not as natural as you might think, especially considering that 80 percent of dairy cows are made pregnant through artificial insemination. 1

The only way for a cow, like any other mammal, to produce milk is for the cow to have a baby. The milk produced by cows is naturally meant for baby calves; however, because people want to drink this milk, the baby calves are taken away from their mothers when they are only a few days old. 1 Cows are extremely maternal animals and both the mother cow and the baby calf suffer terribly from being separated at such a young age. One study showed that calves with no interaction with their mothers or only interaction through a fence, "induced significant increases in walking, butting, urinating, and vocalizing"2. In fact, one cow missed her baby so much that she broke out of her paddock and trekked through 8 kilometers of paddocks and rivers to find her baby 3. On dairy farms, mother cows can be heard bellowing out wildly trying to find their babies as well as running after the cattle trucks that take their babies to separate farms.

The baby calves lives are then decided by their gender. If the calf is male then he is taken away to be raised and slaughtered for meat. Because of this the NZ dairy industry contributes to the death of more than 1 million male calves every year. 4 That’s one death every 20 seconds. In fact, 55 percent of all beef in New Zealand supermarkets comes directly from the dairy industry. 5 These male calves are transported to separate meat farms or slaughterhouses, where they will never see their mothers again. Transported as young as 4 days of age, they endure cold and hunger, without food for up to 30 hours, while struggling to maintain their footing in the cattle truck.

There is no legal requirement for calves to be fed before being transported. A 1998 study 6 looked at 7,169 young male calves who arrived at a Wanganui abattoir (slaughterhouse) after a 7-hour journey in cattle trucks. The research found that 27 arrived in an 'unacceptable condition' - lying down, unable to walk, extremely weak or seriously injured. A further 4 percent were 'marginal' with a 'wet umbilicus, were hollow sided, apparently immature, or weak and slow and unsteady on their feet'. While these numbers may not seem large, the fact that a million male calves are slaughtered every year means that thousands probably arrive at slaughterhouses in critical condition, and tens of thousands are seriously unwell after the journey.

If the calf is female she will either be kept as a herd replacement, living in the same conditions as her mother, or she will be sent to a slaughterhouse or killed on farm.



In the 6-8 days after calving, cows lose weight and condition rapidly, as their bodies consume themselves to provide milk for absent calves 7, so

that humans can buy milkshakes to wash down burgers made from the bodies of those same calves. Researchers have estimated that a modern dairy cow is under as much strain as a cyclist on Tour de France. 8

Naturally cows can live to be up to 25 years old. But on dairy farms they are slaughtered when they are only 5-7 years old meaning that most dairy cows live less than a third of their natural life span. In fact, 20 percent of New Zealand's dairy cows are killed every year, because they are considered too old or they fail to become pregnant. 9 Cows form strong relationships and spend most of their time in 'friendship groups' of 2-4 cows who lick and groom each other. 10 This annual slaughter is very distressing to their friends in the herd.

Cows are forced onto trucks (in the same way baby male calves are transported) that take them to be slaughtered. When they arrive at the slaughterhouse, they are held together in stunning pens where they are stunned with a captive bolt pistol. They are then shackled by the leg, lifted up and have their throats slit. After the blood has been drained away, the cows body is used for cheap meat and pet food. 11

Because dairy cows are milked so excessively, NZ dairy cows have increased risks of teat diseases like mastitis. Symptoms of mastitis include include hot, swollen, acutely painful udders, fever, and loss of appetite. When a cow has mastitis her udder may become so inflamed that it is as hard as a stone, and blood bubbles into her milk, which becomes clotted and watery 12. Severe cases of mastitis can kill a cow in less then 24 hours. Modern dairy cows have been bred for milk production to the point where the teats of their enlarged udders dangle close to the ground, and become muddy and infected. 13

Although tail docking is not as common in cattle as in sheep, the tails of some dairy cows are amputated using a tight rubber ring, or a searing iron, in order to “improve comfort for milking personnel, and enhance milking efficiency,” 13 or to try and stop mastitis. However, the scientific evidence for mastitis prevention is inconclusive. A US study by researcher Dan Weary found no health benefits in chopping off cows’ tails. 14

Amputation is very painful, as the cow’s tail is richly supplied with nerves and blood vessels. Cows need their tails to swat away insects, and possibly to communicate with other cows. Docked cows try in vain to flick their tail stumps, and are likely to suffer from neuropathic pain, similar to the “phantom limb” pain experienced by human amputees. 16 Cattle may also be branded for identification.

The RNZSPCA is opposed both to the docking of the tails of dairy cows, and to the use of hot branding.

Calves are often dehorned to prevent damage or bruising to their carcass during slaughter. Calf's may be dehorned with bolt cutters, scoop dehorners or a butchers saw. This causes pain, bleeding and exposure of the frontal sinuses in older animals. 13 The pain can last 6 hours after dehorning. 15 Dehorning is often done without the use of anaesthetics.

In addition to having distinct personalities, cows are very intelligent animals who can remember things for a long time.

Animal behaviorists have found that cows interact in complex ways, developing friendships over time, sometimes holding grudges against cows who treat them badly and choosing leaders based upon intelligence. They have complex emotions as well and even have the ability to worry about the future.

Researchers have found that cows can not only figure out problems, they also enjoy the challenge and get excited when they find a solution. In one study, researchers challenged the animals with a task where they had to find how to open a door to get some food. The researchers then measured their brainwaves. Professor Broom said that ‘The brainwaves showed the cows excitement; their heartbeat went up and some even jumped into the air. We called it their Eureka moment,’

Cows can also learn how to push a lever to operate a drinking fountain when they’re thirsty or press a button with their head to release food when they’re hungry. Like humans they quickly learn to avoid things that cause pain like electric fences. In fact if just one cow in the herd is shocked by an electric fence, the rest of the herd will learn from that and will avoid the fence in the future.

Grandmother cows often help their daughters with mothering duties, but one cow named Olivia wanted no part of that. She never left her calf’s side, and she ignored her mother’s offers to help groom him. Offended, her mother finally marched off to another field to graze with her friends and never communicated to her daughter again.

Cows can also remember and hold grudges against people who have hurt them or their family members.

Sources:

1) "Pasture-based dairying the New Zealand way", New Zealand Agritech

2) "A note on behavioral responses to brief cow-calf separation and reunion in cattle" Journal of veterinary behavior, (2007): 10-14

3) SAFE Humane resource 'Animals and Us'

4) "Beef cattle productivity from pasture" Agritech

5) "Statistics", Beef New Zealand

6) Stafford, K.J., “The physical state and plasma biochemical profile of young calves on arrival at a slaughter plant,” New Zealand veterinary journal 49.4 (2001): 142-149

7) “Weight loss after calving,” New Zealand dairy farmer 80.12 (2005): 73.

8) J. Webster, Animal welfare: a cool eye towards Eden (Oxford: Blackwell Science, 1994)

9) McQueen, Robert J. [et al.], “The WEKA machine learning workbench: its application to a real world agricultural database,” University of Waikato, Dept. of Computer Science

10) Leake, Jonathon, “The secret life of moody cows,” Sunday star times Jan. 27, 2005: 13.

11) "Truth or Dairy", AAA Leaflet

12) S.M. McDougall, “Prevalence of clinical mastitis in 38 Waikato dairy herds in early lactation,” New Zealand veterinary journal 47 (1999): 143-149.

13) Animal welfare (painful husbandry procedures) code of welfare 2005

14) "Scientists let the tail wag their research,” Chronicle of higher education 46 (2000): 22.

15) C. McMeekan et al., “Effects of a local anaesthetic and a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory analgesic on the behavioural responses of calves to dehorning,” New Zealand veterinary journal 47 (1999): 92-96

16) J. Ladewig and L.R. Matthews, “The importance of physiological measurements in farm animal stress research,” Proceedings of the New Zealand Society of Animal Production 52 (1992): 77-9
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
April 12 2011 01:03 GMT
#180

+ Show Spoiler +
On April 12 2011 07:23 Piy wrote:
Raw Vegan here (or mostly at least, all vegan anyway) and this is such a good thread so far! So little mud slinging lol :p

Was Vegetarian for a while and became a vegan about 2 years ago - is actually super easy to do, never noticed any reduction in energy levels or weightloss or anything. Didn't get much healthier though because my diet sucked, was just full of vegan junk food.

Little while after that I read that you can get rid of allergies and health problems by just cutting out junky foods from your diet and eating more raw fruits and vegetables, and I've got to say, it works really well so far

What I did was just replace grains and starchy carbs with bananas (so like 50% a days calories come from Bananas), which are pretty much just a really easy to digest starch themselves, and then make the rest up with fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds. Celery and cucumbers are actually the greatest things ever - get rid of headaches and congestion/infections really nicely

Can't really tell you how good its been not having serious allergies anymore - can be around cats, dogs, dust and pollen now without allergies flaring up at all, so I think they're basically cured

You hear crazy stories of people reversing serious health concerns with high fruit and vegetable vegan diets a lot, but I don't really know much about that from personal experience, and certainly don't want to bring a subject I know so little about into an open discussion on the internet..

Must say I'm a little surprised by people who are having problems with energy on vegan diets...Were you eating enough calories? Meat and cheese are fairly dense calorie sources, and one of the biggest problems I've seen in people when they are transitioning over is that they just make the same meals they made with meat but put in only carrots and potatoes, which are much less dense calorie sources than meat (you have to eat a kilo of potatoes for every 300g of beef you eat). So people think they're eating the same amount as they were previously, but are in fact eating half the calories and become tired because they aren't used to counting calories

Recipes are hard lol, I just eat apples and bananas and things whole. And salads obviously:

lettuce, tomatoes, sunflower seeds, green onions, avocado and lemon juice
mix

Not very interesting lol

One thing I did really like recently was almond smoothies, which you owe to yourself to try.

- You basically take half cup of almonds
- blend with cup of water
- add 3 bananas, blend
- optionally add some strawberries or kiwi or whatever fruit in the amount you want. I prefer about 5-10 strawberries.
- then drink it. My favourite food right now I think

Pretty cheap, very fast, and like 6-800 calories depending on how well I know the cup-->grams conversion -.- High protein and iron as well I guess, although I don't really worry about protein that much - Enough calories --> probably enough protein. But that's an old discussion, and everyone has their own opinions on it, which is cool

In the end everyones going to have their own opinions on diet, and it's such a contentious topic amongst people on both sides of the argument, that these days I try and stay pretty neutral. But I do have to say, the health benefits I personally have experienced from this diet have been very surprising and eye opening, especially when I think how badly depressed I used to become and how severe my allergies were.


P.S I've never liked animals that much. My whole family are crazy about animals (dogs, cats, horses etc) and they all eat meat, so I thought that was a funny little point to end on :p


That sounds like a freaking amazing way to eat to me. If my mom would buy that much fruit for me, I'd have a fruit based diet for sure.

Today I was eating some rotisserie chicken, still testing out a paleo-based eating style. Half-way through, I just thought, this really isn't that good. Hrm. So I'll think of trying a moderately-vegetarian diet for a while.

How do you get your (complete) protein? I'm not doing soy, that's for sure.
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
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