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Please don't comment without watching the replay. Also, please don't comment about how builds like the one I used here are easy to stop - this isn't a discussion about that.
I need opinions guys. I just played this game (Masters level) against a zerg. The game starts out with him 7-pooling. I scout it, and respond accordingly by throwing up a forge along with my gateway, pumping out 2 zealots and throwing down one cannon. However, the guy never attacks. He transitions immediately into a 14-hatch without making a single zergling. I'm already very confused, but I'm like whatever.
So I transition into one of my standard pvz openers, involving a fast stargate with phoenixes, and then a 4gate.
After killing an overlord near my base (which I had seen fly over there earlier in the game) I proceed to his base to start harassing. When I show up, however, there are 5 hydralisks already there to greet me.
I know for a fact that he didn't scout ANYTHING - he didn't send a scouting drone, he didn't sack any overlords, NOTHING. How many zergs go 7pool (no zerglings made)-->14hatch-->hydralisks?
Now here's the the real giveaway in my opinion. I have 4 phoenixes still, and I'm about to hit with the 4gate. I put up a proxy pylon which he does not see. I know because I checked his vision in the replay and he never has vision of it. So theoretically, this guy doesn't know the 4gate is coming. After all, how often does a protoss transition from phoenix into 4gate?
I have a few gateway units in my base (like 4 zealots, 2 sentries and a stalker) which I start to bring to the proxy pylon. The moment my units leave my base, the guy throws down 4 spine crawlers and starts massing zerglings. He literally had zero information about my base, nothing at the towers, and zero map control the entire game, and he knows exactly when to throw down mass spine crawlers?
Anyway, I hit with the 4gate and phoenixes, see all the spine crawlers, and immediately retreat back to my base to throw up an expansion. The moment I put up my nexus at the natural, the guy starts droning again.
Eventually I lose to mass hydras, mass roaches, and mass corrupters (which he made without once scouting my base).
Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions.
Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/3430
Let me know what you think.
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LOL he got lucky as hell, i really hate to say it but you got hardcore metagamed 
Yes, if you look at his vision, he never really looks at your base thru FoW so I doubt he is maphacking -- he could be perhaps just staring at the minimap all the time, but yeah i wouldn't worry about it he got soo soooo lucky.
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He can have a production hack. He doesnt even need to scout you, he can just look at what ur making and counter accordingly
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On April 06 2011 09:54 natewOw wrote:
Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions.
Decent map hacks disable FOW watching in replays so you really can't tell if they're hacking or not.
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dont think i know of a person who does 7 pool, doesnt attack, expands, and counters what you do next perfectly without scouting
this does seem fishy
also i do believe maphacks allow you to 100% see the minimap, atleast that would be the best answer as to how he responded to your units leaving the base
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If someone 7pooled like that and didn't go 6 lings blind like that, it's not game sense, he was map hacking.
And what you say about not needing to look at the map is (sadly) possible due to SC2's own replay functionality. MHers i'm sure could code easily code in the replay functions, such as the production tab, into a mh.
Post the replay maybe? But yeah...7 pool into...drones? lol, blatant mher. There is a hackers thread here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151244
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On April 06 2011 09:59 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 09:54 natewOw wrote:
Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions. Decent map hacks disable FOW watching in replays so you really can't tell if they're hacking or not.
Yes it has been reported that map hacks have a screen lock function to screw with people watching replays.
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On April 06 2011 09:54 natewOw wrote:I need opinions guys. I just played this game (Masters level) against a zerg. The game starts out with him 7-pooling. I scout it, and respond accordingly by throwing up a forge along with my gateway, pumping out 2 zealots and throwing down one cannon. However, the guy never attacks. He transitions immediately into a 14-hatch without making a single zergling. I'm already very confused, but I'm like whatever. So I transition into one of my standard pvz openers, involving a fast stargate with phoenixes, and then a 4gate. After killing an overlord near my base (which I had seen fly over there earlier in the game) I proceed to his base to start harassing. When I show up, however, there are 5 hydralisks already there to greet me. I know for a fact that he didn't scout ANYTHING - he didn't send a scouting drone, he didn't sack any overlords, NOTHING. How many zergs go 7pool (no zerglings made)-->14hatch-->hydralisks? Now here's the the real giveaway in my opinion. I have 4 phoenixes still, and I'm about to hit with the 4gate. I put up a proxy pylon which he does not see. I know because I checked his vision in the replay and he never has vision of it. So theoretically, this guy doesn't know the 4gate is coming. After all, how often does a protoss transition from phoenix into 4gate? I have a few gateway units in my base (like 4 zealots, 2 sentries and a stalker) which I start to bring to the proxy pylon. The moment my units leave my base, the guy throws down 4 spine crawlers and starts massing zerglings. He literally had zero information about my base, nothing at the towers, and zero map control the entire game, and he knows exactly when to throw down mass spine crawlers? Anyway, I hit with the 4gate and phoenixes, see all the spine crawlers, and immediately retreat back to my base to throw up an expansion. The moment I put up my nexus at the natural, the guy starts droning again. Eventually I lose to mass hydras, mass roaches, and mass corrupters (which he made without once scouting my base). Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/3430Let me know what you think.
Its pretty simple to stop delayed all ins like what youre doing, if it doing phenix into 4 gate off 1 base, that comes really slow, and if protoss hasnt expanded by like 7:30 then you know something gimmicky is coming, and i often times do go fast hydra, its weak to some builds but it makes a nice timing attack.
Alot of protoss do their own thing so you have to prepare for alot, phoenix into 4 gate isnt all that rare, ive encountered it a couple times.
the only thing that makes this suspicious is the 7 pool and not attacking that right there id automatically say he hacks.
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wow wtf did i do, delete t.t
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Trust me...
-There ARE maphacks with camera Lock
-There ARE maphacks with replay like interface (show what your opponent is building and the # of units he has)
so he could be a maphacker
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This guy wasnt even smart enough to try to hide it, its worse when they hide it for a long time like IGWARE did.
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Yeah I heard of a map hack that is going around that reads memory (RAM) and because it spits out the info in another window (like opponent units and production) and because it doesn't touch the SC2 engine at all it is undetectable by blizzard. I think a solution on blizzard's part would be to encrypt the information that contains opponent production movement etc in a way the would be unique to every game played so only the engine would be able to read it. Even if it was already it has clearly been cracked so they need to change it again.
As someone said above me, probably a production hack...
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it really sucks that maphacks are out in this game man, i think this guy is a maphacker but even going beyond that. i hope blizzard releases another patch soon.
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The strangest thing is, the second after your forge started, he rallied his lings at your ramp and then canceled them immediately.
He probably did hack. He only uncovered maybe, an 8th of the entire map, and nothing past your Xel'Naga tower...that just seemed too suspicious. Usually you want a single set of lings to see what the Protoss is doing, whether or not hes expanded etc, but he didn't even bother doing that, no overlord suicide, nothing. The only uncovered area past his expansion is due to that one overlord that he sent to the open area near your base.
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Don't see how this is "new". Undetectable maphacks always exist, and yes some of them only show unit production or minimap to avoid looking through the fog of war. As such, your evidence is fairly flimsy by the community guidelines posted in the hacker thread but not without suspicion.
Hope a mod moves this to the general hacker thread but don't know how to contact them.
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I remember seeing a video of a production tab hack, he could have been using one of those.
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On April 06 2011 10:04 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 09:54 natewOw wrote:I need opinions guys. I just played this game (Masters level) against a zerg. The game starts out with him 7-pooling. I scout it, and respond accordingly by throwing up a forge along with my gateway, pumping out 2 zealots and throwing down one cannon. However, the guy never attacks. He transitions immediately into a 14-hatch without making a single zergling. I'm already very confused, but I'm like whatever. So I transition into one of my standard pvz openers, involving a fast stargate with phoenixes, and then a 4gate. After killing an overlord near my base (which I had seen fly over there earlier in the game) I proceed to his base to start harassing. When I show up, however, there are 5 hydralisks already there to greet me. I know for a fact that he didn't scout ANYTHING - he didn't send a scouting drone, he didn't sack any overlords, NOTHING. How many zergs go 7pool (no zerglings made)-->14hatch-->hydralisks? Now here's the the real giveaway in my opinion. I have 4 phoenixes still, and I'm about to hit with the 4gate. I put up a proxy pylon which he does not see. I know because I checked his vision in the replay and he never has vision of it. So theoretically, this guy doesn't know the 4gate is coming. After all, how often does a protoss transition from phoenix into 4gate? I have a few gateway units in my base (like 4 zealots, 2 sentries and a stalker) which I start to bring to the proxy pylon. The moment my units leave my base, the guy throws down 4 spine crawlers and starts massing zerglings. He literally had zero information about my base, nothing at the towers, and zero map control the entire game, and he knows exactly when to throw down mass spine crawlers? Anyway, I hit with the 4gate and phoenixes, see all the spine crawlers, and immediately retreat back to my base to throw up an expansion. The moment I put up my nexus at the natural, the guy starts droning again. Eventually I lose to mass hydras, mass roaches, and mass corrupters (which he made without once scouting my base). Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/3430Let me know what you think. Its pretty simple to stop delayed all ins like what youre doing, if it doing phenix into 4 gate off 1 base, that comes really slow, and if protoss hasnt expanded by like 7:30 then you know something gimmicky is coming, and i often times do go fast hydra, its weak to some builds but it makes a nice timing attack. Alot of protoss do their own thing so you have to prepare for alot, phoenix into 4 gate isnt all that rare, ive encountered it a couple times. nothing in this post screams maphack to me t.t
I see what you're saying, but it relies entirely on the guy ]knowing that I haven't expanded by 7:30. This guy ]doesn't know that. He never scouts me once. Never even TRIES. How do you explain that?
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On April 06 2011 10:05 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:04 Warrice wrote:On April 06 2011 09:54 natewOw wrote:I need opinions guys. I just played this game (Masters level) against a zerg. The game starts out with him 7-pooling. I scout it, and respond accordingly by throwing up a forge along with my gateway, pumping out 2 zealots and throwing down one cannon. However, the guy never attacks. He transitions immediately into a 14-hatch without making a single zergling. I'm already very confused, but I'm like whatever. So I transition into one of my standard pvz openers, involving a fast stargate with phoenixes, and then a 4gate. After killing an overlord near my base (which I had seen fly over there earlier in the game) I proceed to his base to start harassing. When I show up, however, there are 5 hydralisks already there to greet me. I know for a fact that he didn't scout ANYTHING - he didn't send a scouting drone, he didn't sack any overlords, NOTHING. How many zergs go 7pool (no zerglings made)-->14hatch-->hydralisks? Now here's the the real giveaway in my opinion. I have 4 phoenixes still, and I'm about to hit with the 4gate. I put up a proxy pylon which he does not see. I know because I checked his vision in the replay and he never has vision of it. So theoretically, this guy doesn't know the 4gate is coming. After all, how often does a protoss transition from phoenix into 4gate? I have a few gateway units in my base (like 4 zealots, 2 sentries and a stalker) which I start to bring to the proxy pylon. The moment my units leave my base, the guy throws down 4 spine crawlers and starts massing zerglings. He literally had zero information about my base, nothing at the towers, and zero map control the entire game, and he knows exactly when to throw down mass spine crawlers? Anyway, I hit with the 4gate and phoenixes, see all the spine crawlers, and immediately retreat back to my base to throw up an expansion. The moment I put up my nexus at the natural, the guy starts droning again. Eventually I lose to mass hydras, mass roaches, and mass corrupters (which he made without once scouting my base). Now here's the kicker: the guy never once looked at my base through the fog of war, and never once scouted. Despite never scouting a single thing, this guy responded perfectly to everything I did. Since he never did the obvious tell of a maphacker (looking through fog of war), I am inclined to believe that this guy either has the most amazing game-sense I've ever seen, or he is using some kind of maphack that allows you to know exactly what the other person is doing without actually looking at their base through the fog of war. Either way, I could really use some opinions. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/3430Let me know what you think. Its pretty simple to stop delayed all ins like what youre doing, if it doing phenix into 4 gate off 1 base, that comes really slow, and if protoss hasnt expanded by like 7:30 then you know something gimmicky is coming, and i often times do go fast hydra, its weak to some builds but it makes a nice timing attack. Alot of protoss do their own thing so you have to prepare for alot, phoenix into 4 gate isnt all that rare, ive encountered it a couple times. nothing in this post that says maphack to me besides the fact that he 7 pooled, thats the only thing that would scream maphack.
I don't know, his hydras always moved to intercept the pheonexes wherever they went. He went all the way around his expo and main, cutting off the pheonex every time. That's what makes me believe the guy was maphacking.
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I don't think you can count him changing his BO from 7 pool into 14 hatch as evidence because sometimes if a zerg knows you've scouted his rush it's all over. So you can rule that out.
As for the other circumstances, as people above have mentioned, there are apparently camera locking hacks.
Don't stress about it though, they will have their few days/weeks of fun then they will have to buy another account and start all over.
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On April 06 2011 09:57 Warp wrote:LOL he got lucky as hell, i really hate to say it but you got hardcore metagamed Yes, if you look at his vision, he never really looks at your base thru FoW so I doubt he is maphacking -- he could be perhaps just staring at the minimap all the time, but yeah i wouldn't worry about it he got soo soooo lucky.
yeah i agree. cant really say he is 100% hacking. However, nearly all the new hacks have a View Production option that allows you to never look at the enemy base but know exactly what is coming. So maybe.
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There are some other things that i saw at about 8:45 he moved his hydras to the right just as ur phoniexes were flying in.
However I did see ast 10:00 - 13:00 u made 2 harrassses with phoneix one at the natural and one at the main in both of thesse cases the hydras were out of position and you were able to kill drones. I do agree that the moving out coniciding with the spine crawler palcement is srtange but this deserves more extensive analysis by many high level players before a decision is made as a number of things could explain what he did in the game which do not include hacking.
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On April 06 2011 10:12 cristo1122 wrote:
There are some other things that i saw at about 8:45 he moved his hydras to the right just as ur phoniexes were flying in.
However I did see ast 10:00 - 13:00 u made 2 harrassses with phoneix one at the natural and one at the main in both of thesse cases the hydras were out of position and you were able to kill drones. I do agree that the moving out coniciding with the spine crawler palcement is srtange but this deserves more extensive analysis by many high level players before a decision is made as a number of things could explain what he did in the game which do not include hacking.
Well OF COURSE he didn't pre-emptively move to intercept the phoenixes every time, that would be the most obvious evidence of a maphack, and maphackers almost never make it that easy.
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He drops 4 more spine crawlers the moment you head out with your ground units after you attacked him with Phoenix after not making a single one at the start nor knowing anything was coming -.-
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On April 06 2011 10:13 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:12 cristo1122 wrote:
There are some other things that i saw at about 8:45 he moved his hydras to the right just as ur phoniexes were flying in.
However I did see ast 10:00 - 13:00 u made 2 harrassses with phoneix one at the natural and one at the main in both of thesse cases the hydras were out of position and you were able to kill drones. I do agree that the moving out coniciding with the spine crawler palcement is srtange but this deserves more extensive analysis by many high level players before a decision is made as a number of things could explain what he did in the game which do not include hacking. Well OF COURSE he didn't pre-emptively move to intercept the phoenixes every time, that would be the most obvious evidence of a maphack, and maphackers almost never make it that easy.
Im not defending him or anything im just making sure that all the facts are there so a balanced decision can be made btw I personally think that he is hacking I play zerg and 7 pool into fast expand is not something that I would consider to be a good idea.
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i would say hes probably cheating, although he COULD be just really lucky. im about 99% on the side of him cheating though. theres just too many signs, the cancel the INSTANT the forge is built proves that it just wasnt trickery imo. also as you were coming to attack, not only were the spines built, but also he brought down all of his queens. his hydralisk movement also is a sign of him being able to see the phoenix on the minimap. really just looks like he always knew what was going on
edit: when he moves his hydras around 13:45 there is no way he isnt map hacking
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Awkward ...
I was experimenting back in BETA 8pool -> Fast Queen & 2 lings -> 14 hatch. But that only seemed viable in ZvZ.
There's surely something fishy about that guy.
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The biggest thing for me, tbh, is the lack of scouting. I can't fathom how a Masters level zerg cannot even be bothered to make a single set of lings to move around the map or grab the Xel'naga towers, he didn't even grab the Xel'Naga at any point during the game, even when he had the gold base with a bunch of Ling/Roach/Hydra
The observer you sent was sitting right infront of his face, his screen was positioned right at it but he didn't even bother to kill it till for a good 20second+, most likely because he couldn't tell if he could actually see it or not -__-
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Replays are no longer a very reliable way to detect maphacks. For quite a while now, maphacks have been able to exploit replays by fixing camera at one point as long as the hacker wants, so he could actually have been looking through FOW. Even if he wasn't, I can imagine the hackers still gain a unbelievably huge advantage by looking at the minimap and the production tab.
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I'm not conviced. I would very careful at acussing someone of hacking.
I watched the replay. Have to say it looks weird, but he could just have some excellent game sense and timings.
I don't buy the production time hack. If so, why build defenses if you see no units warping? (@ 9.00)
I don't buy the vision hack either. He didn't know from where your Phoenixes were coming. (@ 9.30)
The fact that you could've won despite the supposed maphack (by just 4 gating him after that weird 7 pool) makes me think you shouldn't worry too much about it. Why not call him and ask him for a rematch? Ony way to be 100% sure about this.
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I am no expert just have a couple thoughts to this example after watching the replay...
I remember watching TLO (i think) on jungle basin fake a 7 or 8 pool into a fast economic build vs protoss. The liquidpedia 2 hatch hydra tells you to 10 overpool so i could see how faking a 7pool into hydras could work... if you really think about it the chances that you get collossi out with the forge (which i guess can be an assumed reaction to the 7pool) are very slim so the natural gateway heavy attack would be countered nicely by the roaches. I will say the 4 spines are a little suspicious but the droning after fending off your attack was not... I would chalk this up to an odd build order with some luckily timed spine crawlers.
my 2 cents 
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Its very frustrating that hacks are already in the game - I hope they do not become well known or Blizzard stomps them out.
Tough luck on that game. Defiantly seems like a hack. Unfortunately, not much to do except report it. :-(
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I agree, we cannot determine if he was hacking or not based on the 7 pool to hatch.
HOWEVER
During the time he was attempting to macro, I noticed that the hotkeys were changing while he was still selected on one unit. The Hatches and queens were done automatically. HE'S A HACKER
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On April 06 2011 10:31 ditkaordie wrote:I am no expert just have a couple thoughts to this example after watching the replay... I remember watching TLO (i think) on jungle basin fake a 7 or 8 pool into a fast economic build vs protoss. The liquidpedia 2 hatch hydra tells you to 10 overpool so i could see how faking a 7pool into hydras could work... if you really think about it the chances that you get collossi out with the forge (which i guess can be an assumed reaction to the 7pool) are very slim so the natural gateway heavy attack would be countered nicely by the roaches. I will say the 4 spines are a little suspicious but the droning after fending off your attack was not... I would chalk this up to an odd build order with some luckily timed spine crawlers. my 2 cents
I do agree that droning after I retreated was not very suspicious.
The thing that really makes me question him the most though is the fact that despite ZERO scouting, he preemptively counters every single one of my strats perfectly.
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It is pretty suspicious, I don't see why many people are suggesting he isn't by not looking into fog of war. As its been proven that there are ones that can cancel that out in replays, leaving it as if the player was starring in his base still. New hacks will always come and go, it sucks dropping a game because of it, but have faith in Blizzard, they keep up with these things pretty well.
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I'd definitely report this guy to Blizzard. If no one else reports him, then maybe he just got really lucky this game, but if other people also think he's fishy, Blizzard will probably do something about it.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that he'd 7 pool, make 6 lings, then cancel them and go for an expand. Also, I've never seen a zerg make no attempts at scouting or controlling the watchtowers in a game. Overall, the guy's play makes no sense unless he was maphacking.
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United States42 Posts
In OPs replay red cancels his 3 sets of lings about 5 seconds after the forge gets started and drops a hatch instead. This was what first made me suspect it, followed by the lair just after stargate, followed by an instant Hydra Den. Then he proceded to make a spine crawler wall once the 4 wgs came up and stargate construction ended.He then masses lings as blue pushes across the map, then instantly goes back to drone production as blue goes home, even tho he hasn't seen anything blue did. My favorite by far was the 7 corrupters as soon as Colossus range started, note red still hasn't seen anything in blues base. Red then proceeds to win the game.
I say maphacker 100%
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On April 06 2011 10:38 hoot00 wrote:
I agree, we cannot determine if he was hacking or not based on the 7 pool to hatch.
HOWEVER
During the time he was attempting to macro, I noticed that the hotkeys were changing while he was still selected on one unit. The Hatches and queens were done automatically. HE'S A HACKER
That's crazy
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I WATCHED THE REPLAY!
And I agree with your suspicions. I would put him on the hacker thread immediately.
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Knowing so many people still hack games really dissapoints me in the gaming community.
10 years ago, I thought by today we would be rid of this crap.
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Thanks for the opinions everyone.
I have reported this guy to Blizzard, and I will upload his information in the hacker database thread.
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why is this called a new maphack? Im confused?
edit: I think I understand, u just needed an opinion on whether or not he's maphacking this isn't discussing some new hack correct?
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I did exact same thing against my friend was playing as protoss. I did 6 pool but I faked it and went 14 pool. Then I would definitely go for hydras, just to be safe from void rays or 4gate.... BUT, him throwing down 4 spine crawlers is indeed weird >.<
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I don't know that much about maphacks, but it looks like this one hides your camera position somehow. That's new to me.
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On April 06 2011 11:02 Mouth wrote:
why is this called a new maphack? Im confused?
edit: I think I understand, u just needed an opinion on whether or not he's maphacking this isn't discussing some new hack correct?
I don't know anything about maphacks because I don't use them. I called it a "possible new maphack" because of the fact that the guy never looked through the fog of war. I didn't know maphacks already existed which made it APPEAR that the hacker never looks through the fog of war.
So no, this is apparently not a new type of maphack, which was news to me.
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Definitely a hacker. Here are the tells:
(1) You don't get to masters by not preparing to stop an 4 gate ever. Whether through building a precautionary roach warren/spines, scouting and seeing FE or other, or hell, even leaving a ling out on the watch tower or just outside the enemy's entrance. He did not build any units or check for proxy pylons ever.
(2) Upon you building a stargate, he immediately put up a lair and once that finished, he put up a hydra den. The hell. Also moved his hydras in the exact position where the pheonix were coming.
(3) Immediately puts 5/6 spines immediately once you moved your forces down your ramp. 1 or 2 is fine since he saw the phoenixes but 6???
I stopped watching after due to frustration.
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I'm conviced this guy is a hacker. Ignoring particulars, you can't be a masters zerg player with no scouting at all.
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he's hacking all right. a couple of times the zerg knew exactly where to (re)position his hydras to intercept the phoenixes, or at least shoo them away. and you don't just make corruptors blind lol. he had them ready as soon as OP made a colossus.
lol @ the guy that thinks the zerg has "game sense". yeah, way too many coincidences. even pros with good game sense actually scout once in a while.
among other evidence that people have already raised here.
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That's a hacker.
Hacks can have the production/units tabs open so they can see what you are doing, your army in addition to the minimap. He doesn't have to look into your base because he can just see what you are doing anyways.
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Its potentially a hack but...
7pool definitely isn't as all-in as you might think if you don't make lings and just power drone. The ridiculously early queen makes quite a large step towards making up the difference, and perhaps this guy has some sort of plan for ZvP that involves tricking you into hopefully making a forge and cannons without having to make any lings.
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Definitely a map hacker (or prod tab hacker). He CANCELED the zerglings - didn't just not make them, bu canceled them.
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I don't know. Part of me really wants to believe he's a hacker, BUT his mindset going into this game could have simply been to play the most unorthodox game possible in order to have the "surprise" advantage (e.g. TLO and his weird strategies). Early pool forces protoss to go defensive so the zerg has time to go fast expand. Early forge play usually leads to a stargate (not necessarily), so going hydras would be a safe to ensure nothing fishy happens with voidrays/phoenixes. This still doesn't explain the spine crawlers and some of the production cancelling that was going on, however, unless he somehow has played this strategy before and recognizes appropriate timings for counterpushes there's really no explanation for it.
I could be totally mistaken. I'm going to watch the replay momentarily, so this opinion might change.
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On April 06 2011 10:38 hoot00 wrote:
I agree, we cannot determine if he was hacking or not based on the 7 pool to hatch.
HOWEVER
During the time he was attempting to macro, I noticed that the hotkeys were changing while he was still selected on one unit. The Hatches and queens were done automatically. HE'S A HACKER
At least he's hacking in that way. Mention that and he'll be banned.
What time?
EDIT: Once you watch the replay it becomes painfully obvious he's hacking/AI?
Just watch him use 5 for various taskts.. like hotkeying all the larva.. hotkeying a single morphing baneling. There's one point when he stares at his ramp for a while too, prob checking your base
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In the maphack used by igware, it's advertised in the description there is a toggle that locks the replay camera and allows the hacker to look anywhere he pleases without it being noticable in his camera view.
It's pretty obvious, he's toggling it on and maphacking you without you being able to obviously notice in the replay.
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He cancelled the zerglings, he wasn't going for some 7 pool fast queen and expansion from the start. And since he never scouted his opponent, there isn't any reason for him to just randomly cancel all of his lings and make an expansion.
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Hard to believe it's a hacker since his win/loss is 50%. He lost like 3-4 games before beating you with a really retarded build. You let him expand to his natural unchecked so he could drone up. You saw he had hydra and delayed your tech to ht or col. Technology does exist to sway the arguement that he is hacking. It is unusual that you weren't scouted the entire time. It could be a bot with a weird BO and that explains the losses though I can't see the duration of the matches to say otherwise. The larvae usage is almost robotic and doesn't miss a beat from my observation.
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On April 06 2011 12:01 Dhalphir wrote:
Its potentially a hack but...
7pool definitely isn't as all-in as you might think if you don't make lings and just power drone. The ridiculously early queen makes quite a large step towards making up the difference, and perhaps this guy has some sort of plan for ZvP that involves tricking you into hopefully making a forge and cannons without having to make any lings.
It's not just 7pool into 13 hatch. He actually canceled his 6 lings once he saw forge on the production tab and there are a few other really suspicious moments. He's not even good at hiding the fact he is maphacking.
Can we publicize this guy enough that so Blizzard will take an action outside of their regular wave bans? Doubtful that'll happen though as this guy isn't top ranked like iGware was.
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Okay this is totally obvious like 13:30 in the game your moving your pheonix around the map to pick off drones and he his putting hydra in position to snipe them with NO vision. He has NO vision of your base the entire game until the end not even a damn pylon. And if you watch his vision his camera is abnormally still early game in my opinion.
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I've seen this same strategy by zerg several times. They usually take the gold as their expo.
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Very likely a map hacker. Based off nothing but his immediate ling cancel the moment your forge was made, and his immediate rush to get hydralisks up without even scouting your base.
Though your comment at the end of the game was completely ridiculous, and there is still a lesson to be learned from this game to improve your play despite his probably hacking. You claimed to have been raping him the entire game, but you barely scratched him, so how you felt you were ahead in that game is beyond me. Also, he was able to get up 4 bases without you even trying to stop it. You only continued to attempt to harass with Phoenixes after they were clearly obsolete, and you fell way behind even though he never once tried to attack you until he had hit max army. You should have had way more stuff than you did when he attacked. Granted, had you tried to take a 3rd it's very likely he would have immediately hit it with lots of units, but I'm only making the point that you can still learn a lot from your mistakes despite your opponent cheating.
A map hack can only do so much for a player, and had you successfully defended his attack, it likely would have resulted in your ability to a-move his base with a toss deathball, a map hack doesn't stop that :-p
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This doesn't really need a new thread. Post it in the TL hacker database thread and people will review it and decide if you're right or not.
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On April 06 2011 12:34 Reborn8u wrote:
I've seen this same strategy by zerg several times. They usually take the gold as their expo.
Pretty sure that was a steppes of war or scrap station build, and its xel'naga with no gold to take that early. Did you watch the replay?
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Why is this even a topic? What can we possibly help you with? We can't ban him. We can't prove he was hacking. The only thing we can do is formulate an opinion as to whether he think he was or not. But our opinions don't matter. Blizzard is the only person who can do anything about it, and, sadly, there isn't enough evidence that he was hacking for Blizzard to ban him.
But, yes, like everyone has said before, there is a production tab hack. You can see what it looks like on youtube.
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post in the hacker database thread
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I've done that before... sometimes I'll 8 pool and if he doesn't scout me I'll attack, if he does scout me I'll drone up... why is that weird?
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On April 06 2011 12:43 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:
I've done that before... sometimes I'll 8 pool and if he doesn't scout me I'll attack, if he does scout me I'll drone up... why is that weird?
Watch the replay from the zergs point of view. He doesn't scout AT ALL during the entire game (this guy is in masters) and uses hotkey 5 for basically everything.. hotkeying larva and stuff.
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I agree that the guy is map hacking.
Just because the guy canceled his lings after you scouted the 7 pool doesn't necessarily mean he was hacking. He could have wanted to rush, made the lings then hesitated and thought it was a bad idea and canceled. However there are two things that I think give it away:
1) When phoenixes are making the guy preemptively clusters his overlords together. For me that was the give away and not the hydra positions which could be luck.
2) The most convincing evidence however is when the rush comes. As everyone's said he immediately throws down like 4-5 crawlers the moment you move out? Too much of a lucky guess imo. On top of that, while you're making your way over there he brings down his queen from his main to help defend, knowing he has to hold that. At that point it's way too obvious. Besides, how do you get into master's league without even scouting the ramp of your opponent.. Doh!
So ya, I agree that this has to be some kind of no fog of war on minimap / production hack. Btw, not very classy the way you stormed out of the game.... >.>
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For anyone that thinks this isn't a maphack watch at the 13:30 mark as the phoenix comedown the right side of the map then back up his hydras mirror them (to the point that they're sitting in the mineral line waiting) despite the fact that the phoenix are nowhere near creep or any sort of scouting. Also I know apm doesn't really mean much and this is purely just theoretical but the zergs apm goes from being pretty average to dropping all the way to zero quite often for being a high level game.
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There are more than 1 way to maphack. I wouldn't rule it out completely, just because he doesn't use the traditional one.
I don't want to go too much into details, but all the information in the game is sent to your client, the game just says "no, you cannot watch it yet". Hence a maphack is available in the first place. But if all the information is sent to your computer, that means it can be picked up by any other computer on the network.
I do not know how well developed the method is, but you can set up a second computer to show certain levels of information of the game by picking up packages. The only one I've seen in action is a unitmovement overview, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him having access to building and unit productions either. The data is all there, is just a question of how to extract it.
Unfortunately, warden cannot detect this, as it is done on a completely different computer. So until they fix battle.net to use their own servers for hosting ladder games, maphacking will be a possibility. Whether you got hacked, I cannot say, but it is a possibility.
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Watched the replay, I'm 99% sure this guy is maphacking. There is too much evidence, I'd suggest you e-mail the replay to hacks@blizzard.com and provide a brief description of what happened.
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...I'm really going to piss people off from my evaluation, and I'm really sorry about that; however:
I'm not convinced he was map hacking at ALL
I'm sorry, I don't. I really really don't.
He faked a 7 pool, hoping you'd over react. He played absolutely terribly (as if the opener wasn't enough to show that lol...?), using his first 100 gas, nearly as soon as a bad player would notice he had enough, and got a lair.
Almost all Zergs that are bad think hydralisks are like THE coolest unit ever. And so he bundled his overlords together because hydralisks were being made, he wanted to protect them. I do the same thing, even if I don't scout a Stargate.
He then had like 7 hydras and 4 zerglings and was like "Well, I have 2 bases, I bet I can make a bunch of spines for units". Because he's bad. And he did. And you happened to have moved out the same time because you scouted him with your phoenixes and saw 0 ground units, so you thought you were going to trample him.
Some very telling signs that he didn't map hack include allowing constant phoenix harassment to work against him, and: when you built Colossi, he MADE A BUNCH MORE HYDRALISKS. Any person who was maphacking vision and saw Colossi tech would go straight roach, or pick up a spire.
The many people who thought this was map hacking are falling for something that both falls into the fields of Psychology and Statistics. It's superstitious behavior. You're all the gamblers who went to the casino, won big when wearing non-matching shoes, and now never match your shoes when walking into the casino.
Translate that mumbo-jumbo into real speak: You all saw he cancelled his 7 pool, and that he built spine crawlers, and even though the rest of the entire game doesn't go by the tendencies it'd have to follow to call this maphacking, you make up excuses for why things happened the way it did. Example: Oh he didn't stop the phoenix harass because it'd be too obvious. Come on: if he didn't want to be obvious about map hacking, he wouldn't make blatant hard counter at odd timings in the first place. You're all trying to reassure yourselves because something looked fishy.
Bottom line: I watched it closely, unbiased, and I think he was a legitimately bad player. But legitimate.
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On April 06 2011 13:07 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...I'm really going to piss people off from my evaluation, and I'm really sorry about that; however:
I'm not convinced he was map hacking at ALL
I honestly question your intelligence, your reasoning is terrible.
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Reminds me of the iGware situation. Hes probably hacking. He laid down spines when you were moving out. I can understand laying down 2-3 but he lays down 5-6? He doesnt scout you, he just goes and makes the perfect counter BLINDLY. I wish Blizzard can fix all this crap.
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On April 06 2011 13:07 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...I'm really going to piss people off from my evaluation, and I'm really sorry about that; however:
I'm not convinced he was map hacking at ALL
I'm sorry, I don't. I really really don't.
Bottom line: I watched it closely, unbiased, and I think he was a legitimately bad player. But legitimate.
And he's in Masters because he's bad.
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On April 06 2011 13:07 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...I'm really going to piss people off from my evaluation, and I'm really sorry about that; however:
I'm not convinced he was map hacking at ALL
I'm sorry, I don't. I really really don't.
He faked a 7 pool, hoping you'd over react. He played absolutely terribly (as if the opener wasn't enough to show that lol...?), using his first 100 gas, nearly as soon as a bad player would notice he had enough, and got a lair.
Almost all Zergs that are bad think hydralisks are like THE coolest unit ever. And so he bundled his overlords together because hydralisks were being made, he wanted to protect them. I do the same thing, even if I don't scout a Stargate.
He then had like 7 hydras and 4 zerglings and was like "Well, I have 2 bases, I bet I can make a bunch of spines for units". Because he's bad. And he did. And you happened to have moved out the same time because you scouted him with your phoenixes and saw 0 ground units, so you thought you were going to trample him.
Some very telling signs that he didn't map hack include allowing constant phoenix harassment to work against him, and: when you built Colossi, he MADE A BUNCH MORE HYDRALISKS. Any person who was maphacking vision and saw Colossi tech would go straight roach, or pick up a spire.
The many people who thought this was map hacking are falling for something that both falls into the fields of Psychology and Statistics. It's superstitious behavior. You're all the gamblers who went to the casino, won big when wearing non-matching shoes, and now never match your shoes when walking into the casino.
Translate that mumbo-jumbo into real speak: You all saw he cancelled his 7 pool, and that he built spine crawlers, and even though the rest of the entire game doesn't go by the tendencies it'd have to follow to call this maphacking, you make up excuses for why things happened the way it did. Example: Oh he didn't stop the phoenix harass because it'd be too obvious. Come on: if he didn't want to be obvious about map hacking, he wouldn't make blatant hard counter at odd timings in the first place. You're all trying to reassure yourselves because something looked fishy.
Bottom line: I watched it closely, unbiased, and I think he was a legitimately bad player. But legitimate.
So it's you against... how many people? What makes you so convinced that you're absolutely right and the rest of us are wrong?
"Almost all Zergs that are bad think hydralisks are like THE coolest unit ever."
"And so he bundled his overlords together because hydralisks were being made, he wanted to protect them."
Those are some interesting assumptions you're making there, and do you ever wonder why such a terrible player is in Masters?
"Some very telling signs that he didn't map hack include allowing constant phoenix harassment to work against him, and: when you built Colossi, he MADE A BUNCH MORE HYDRALISKS. Any person who was maphacking vision and saw Colossi tech would go straight roach, or pick up a spire."
"Come on: if he didn't want to be obvious about map hacking, he wouldn't make blatant hard counter at odd timings in the first place."
He made inappropriate unit composition because he doesn't maphack,
He made blatant hard counter at odd timings because he doesn't maphack.
You keep harping on about how bad he is, yet you assume that he can respond perfectly to phoenixes with his slow hydras.
Does maphack even exist in Starcraft 2?
Allow me to try summarizing your mumbo-jumbo: "He did this.... cuz he's bad. and you just happened to do this at the same time. It's all coincidence man. And about that other thing... well, he's bad and that's why he did this. Come on, he's bad..."
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I'm fully aware that there are hacks that lock the camera etc, but really he didn't do anything that special. The only sus thing is that he blind countered your phoenix, it doesn't matter that he blind countered your warpgate collosi army because almost every Zerg does that anyway (it's common as hell). He out macro'd you the entire game, you didn't scout his 7 pool and if you did you could have punished his fast expansion and GG'd him quickly.
It's possible that he's a hacker but this is by far no proof of it
On April 06 2011 13:38 Sein wrote:Does maphack even exist in Starcraft 2?
YES YES YES A MILLION TIMES YES.
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does seem like production hack, key tells are when he cancels the zerglings when you start the forge and how he starts the lair and as soon as you make a stargate, and how he moves the overlords back before phoenixs reveal themselves.
i don't think it's maphack tho, just the production tab thing.
however i must say you were never raping his economy, lol.
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On April 06 2011 13:07 Jeffbelittle wrote:
...I'm really going to piss people off from my evaluation, and I'm really sorry about that; however:
I'm not convinced he was map hacking at ALL
I'm sorry, I don't. I really really don't.
He faked a 7 pool, hoping you'd over react. He played absolutely terribly (as if the opener wasn't enough to show that lol...?), using his first 100 gas, nearly as soon as a bad player would notice he had enough, and got a lair.
Almost all Zergs that are bad think hydralisks are like THE coolest unit ever. And so he bundled his overlords together because hydralisks were being made, he wanted to protect them. I do the same thing, even if I don't scout a Stargate.
He then had like 7 hydras and 4 zerglings and was like "Well, I have 2 bases, I bet I can make a bunch of spines for units". Because he's bad. And he did. And you happened to have moved out the same time because you scouted him with your phoenixes and saw 0 ground units, so you thought you were going to trample him.
Some very telling signs that he didn't map hack include allowing constant phoenix harassment to work against him, and: when you built Colossi, he MADE A BUNCH MORE HYDRALISKS. Any person who was maphacking vision and saw Colossi tech would go straight roach, or pick up a spire.
The many people who thought this was map hacking are falling for something that both falls into the fields of Psychology and Statistics. It's superstitious behavior. You're all the gamblers who went to the casino, won big when wearing non-matching shoes, and now never match your shoes when walking into the casino.
Translate that mumbo-jumbo into real speak: You all saw he cancelled his 7 pool, and that he built spine crawlers, and even though the rest of the entire game doesn't go by the tendencies it'd have to follow to call this maphacking, you make up excuses for why things happened the way it did. Example: Oh he didn't stop the phoenix harass because it'd be too obvious. Come on: if he didn't want to be obvious about map hacking, he wouldn't make blatant hard counter at odd timings in the first place. You're all trying to reassure yourselves because something looked fishy.
Bottom line: I watched it closely, unbiased, and I think he was a legitimately bad player. But legitimate.
Except he DID drop a spire almost exactly when the collossus bay went up. And if he was genuinely that bad, he wouldn't be in masters without hacks.
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Some very telling signs that he didn't map hack include allowing constant phoenix harassment to work against him, and: when you built Colossi, he MADE A BUNCH MORE HYDRALISKS. Any person who was maphacking vision and saw Colossi tech would go straight roach, or pick up a spire.
Did you even watch the replay? He made a spire and massed corrupters before seeing any colossi tech or scouting (which he didn't do all game.)
You, sir, are wrong.
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blizzard really needs to stop this cheating. i feel more and more people are cheating every game. just the other day i played sorcery and his 3v3 team and they admitted to hacking. also played a 1v1 recently where a guy paused the game while looking over my base. I asked him what he needed to pause for and he wouldn't answer me. So i unpaused paranoid that he was somehow looking at my base or something. i love this game but so many people just want easy wins without working for it. Makes me worried about the game and i may even stop playing because of it
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Rewatched it, now see the spire. Also: must have missed the context that this is master league.
More convinced, though not fully, that this was a production hack.
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United States12607 Posts
On April 06 2011 12:42 arb wrote:
post in the hacker database thread
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EPT
