EPT4 Gate - Warpgate Research Time - Page 2
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MarKeD
Australia183 Posts
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 19 2011 01:02 MarKeD wrote: surely we dont need another 4 gate thread? Apparently we do. Despite the fact there's quite a few ways to hold it off, apparently it is easier to just go and say "nerf it!!!!!!" | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
currently, if some one was 4gating you they'd have their warpgates done by 5:30 because they are cb'ing it constantly, whereas yours might come at ~6:00 or shortly thereafter. If you had 20 seconds to it, they are still prioritizing cb'ing warpgates over everything else and you are not. So now yours comes at 6:20, 20 seconds later. Theirs will come less than 20 seconds later because of cb The only thing this will change is you might be able to get an additional unit out before warpgates finish which probably WOULD make pvp warpgate easier to hold off, but the effect it would have on the other matchups is too great to justify the change | ||
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 19 2011 01:13 Zaphid wrote: If you are dedicated to being good at this game, shape your strategy to the game, not the game to your strategy couldn't have said it better myself xD | ||
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
Also, I'm assuming this is you: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/522215/1/SeraKuDA/ladder/29835#current-rank You're 2800 masters, anything below like 3500 is essentially trash in terms of theory-crafting ability so you should just not do it without completely worked out numbers. | ||
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Mirosuu
England283 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On February 19 2011 00:41 SeraKuDA wrote: As everyone most likely knows by now, PvP is a matchup dictated by the 4 gate. There have been many attempts at countering it, yet because of it's simplicity, it remains the number one opening. Any strategies designed to counter it are much more difficult to pull off correctly, and this causes frustration amongst most Protoss players. Now, I realize the warpgate research time was already increased in the Beta, but what I'm suggesting is that another increase might solve the problems with the 4 gate. Another 20 or 30 seconds to the upgrade should mean you have enough to hold it off a lot easier with a different build. From my experience, the 4 gate push arrives just a little bit before I'm really ready to deal with it, and that's where the strength of it lies. So perhaps another increase to the research time may be all it takes. Anyways, I'm more or less throwing that out there to generate some discussion on it. Your thoughts? Did you even think before posting? Sorry, but just think! Delaying the warpgate research time will just result in a later 4 gate warpgate. There will be no difference in the game. And after that it would affect the matchup against T and Z where you need warpgate that early against a roach rush or marine/marauder push. PvP is essentially the ZvZ of SC2. Zvz in this game is much more likely to have variations. This idea just makes no sense the issue is regardless the other options are just not nearly as viable. Sentry blocking until colossi will result in blink stalkers. Immortals dont produce fast enough during 3gate 1robo to really be viable, but there could be an eventual build where this works out, but it would probably involve 1gate into robo ASAP into 2 more gates. In the end though until someone finds a really good way to hold off 4 gate it will be a battle of the 4gates. | ||
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DueSs
United States765 Posts
You're 2800 masters, anything below like 3500 is essentially trash in terms of theory-crafting ability O good Lord.. OP is just making a suggestion and isn't really claiming to be #1 PRO GOSU ULTRA UBER GOD-LIKE. Jeebus. No reason to call the guy trash. Just ridic. | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
On February 19 2011 01:01 SeraKuDA wrote: Alright, yeah I'll try and work out that 3 stalker play. Looks good. I don't have the replay, but judging from Artosis' video i think his opponents 1st warpin is about 30s too late. This is not entirely due to the active scouting, but to the sloppy play of his opponent. Not scouting your opponents main and just checking for proxys in you main is also not advised imho. It is crucial you can have a look on you opponents nexus energy for identifying a 4gate as well as for detecting proxies somewhere on the map, which you cannot see if you are just scouting in your own base. It might work, but it is more of a gamble than scouting a 4gate by nexus energy and playing a zealot heavy defensive 4gate on small ramps yourself to defend it and tech to colossi or sth else if you feel your opponent is not going through with it. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On February 19 2011 01:42 ABCSFirebird wrote: Not scouting your opponents main and just checking for proxys in you main is also not advised imho. It is crucial you can have a look on you opponents nexus energy for identifying a 4gate as well as for detecting proxies somewhere on the map, which you cannot see if you are just scouting in your own base. Artosis doesn't advocate not scouting your opponents main, he sends a probe after checking his base, but doesn't show it on the replay because he's explaining the build he's doing to the viewers (he even states that). The 3 stalker proxy denial is a great opening imo, though Tyler had some interesting comments on it being easy to adjust to if you scout it (i.e. you can read the build early enough to just retune your strat into a more economic opener) ---- In terms of actually reducing the effectiveness of a 4gate via game changes, I would rather see something like unit warp in times scaling with proximity to a nexus. i.e. at home (within 60 range of a nexus or w/e) your units warp in over 5 seconds, half the map away they warp in over 7 seconds, the full map away they warp in over 9 etc It wouldn't harm Protoss defensively, but would slow their early offence (i.e. reduce the power of the 4gate somewhat (particularly in pvp)). I'm not sure quite how much of an impact slightly longer warp in times would have on mid/late game reinforcements though, not being able to reinforce quite so quickly might be a pain (though then again, come late game chances are you've got a nexus in a more central location anyway) | ||
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samboi
England69 Posts
This would mess TvP up early game to the point that toss would NEVER be able to hold you off without perfect forcefields,,, and the point about the chronoboost is valid, a player who sat there chrono'ing out would get his warpgate research even sooner than you if it was made longer and he was rushing for it, Its an interesting thought, personally i dont think PvP is broken, it is like all the other mirror match-ups, players use a solid build that would crush the opponent unless he either did the same or had good micro and a solid build to beat it, This game is evolving however and terrans having the most options available infront of them seems to be doing it faster than the zerg and toss. TvT is no longer about who can get the bigger force by a set amount of time then go and crush the other, alot of the time it comes down to tank placments and harassment sucess chipping away at the opponent and is often about the long macro game. I do hope that soon PvP and ZvZ will turn out like this where the game comes down to outplaying your opponent rather than rushing them but it is the players that adapt that end up doing well. | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
The OP clearly didn't even put much thought into this thread before making it, either. At least try. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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RevRich
United States218 Posts
On February 19 2011 01:26 MoreFaSho wrote: It's totally logical that chrono-boosting warpgate will be strong almost no matter what the research time. If you chrono boost warpgate, it let's all of your gateways produce the first warp unit 10 seconds faster, if you chrono a gateway you only save 10 seconds on that 1 unit. So in a 4-gate chrono boosting your warpgate lets you get out every series of units that come out of a warpgate. Also, I'm assuming this is you: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/522215/1/SeraKuDA/ladder/29835#current-rank You're 2800 masters, anything below like 3500 is essentially trash in terms of theory-crafting ability so you should just not do it without completely worked out numbers. Now there is a certain point total you must reach before opening up a discussion on TL? I sure hope those guys at blizzard are 4000pt masters before they make any balance changes, otherwise they simply cannot fully grasp the game and its mechanics. | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
However, I have also given thought to the current thought of the gateway. Right now, no one ever uses normal gateways since warpgates can produce units faster, and proxy units from a pylon. I believe making the normal gates have less build time and increase the build time for warpgate resarch technology might be the answer. 4 gate proxy cheeses come later, and you can defend with your normal gateways while teching up. Cheese would involve going proxy gateways, which would require the same amount of risk as in broodwar. So, basically making this change,on all MUs, it would not change the early game by that much since cheeses would be much more defendable, and you going proxy gateways is a much bigger risk than just proxying a pylon somewhere. | ||
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