As everyone most likely knows by now, PvP is a matchup dictated by the 4 gate. There have been many attempts at countering it, yet because of it's simplicity, it remains the number one opening. Any strategies designed to counter it are much more difficult to pull off correctly, and this causes frustration amongst most Protoss players.
Now, I realize the warpgate research time was already increased in the Beta, but what I'm suggesting is that another increase might solve the problems with the 4 gate. Another 20 or 30 seconds to the upgrade should mean you have enough to hold it off a lot easier with a different build. From my experience, the 4 gate push arrives just a little bit before I'm really ready to deal with it, and that's where the strength of it lies. So perhaps another increase to the research time may be all it takes.
Anyways, I'm more or less throwing that out there to generate some discussion on it. Your thoughts?
You forget that you need warpgates yourself to hold off the 4-warp gate. Adding 20 seconds might make the battle happen a little later, but if someone is saving chronoboosts, they can actually get it out even further before you do with added chronoboosts.
Seems like a good idea. A small increase in cost is comparable. Maybe even better as now warpgate research is no-brainer which is not good for diversity.
You should really watch the latest VOD from Artosis:
He explains a very valid counter to 4gate with the game as it is right now. It may be a bit harder to execute this build but if you get the build order and scouting, you should have your problem solved
No. This is going to do nothing but delay the 4gate by 20-30 seconds. You gotta think of the effects on the other matchup too. PvP, it won't really change anythingt because its mirror, but in PvT and PvZ it would give the opponent a much larger timing window to attack before the warpgates finish.
Well I'm thinking more on the lines of going another tech, such as 2 gate robo, or 3 gate robo, or maybe stargate play. This gives you a chance to develop those. You know, get an immortal or two out a bit earlier.
I've been smashing 4 gates with 3 gate robo. The trick is to make as much as you can from the 3 gates with crono while the warp research is going. Then crono out an immortal and use ff to stop the 4 gate until your immortal is out. If you get the immortal out, you then either get another immortal or go straight for colossus.Depending on if your opponent backs off or all ins with his 4 gate. Once you get the 1st colossus out you expo, 2nd colossus push, all the while adding gateway units as your economy allows. If I get 2 colossus and an immortal and they don't have colossus yet,they die. Or at the very least loose their expo which I still have.
If warp gate researched needs another nerf it should probably be to the cost next time. Making it an extra 50 gas would slow it down and reduce the number of units you can hit with.
After some thought ... Warp-gate should be like other tech routes - counterable by early agression. To make it happen the cost should be increased, increasing the time is not enough.
If they were to do something like this then it would break the use of protoss in 2v2 and unbalance it. And blizzard cares about 2v2 hence why they nerfed terran among other things as well in a previous patch..
On February 19 2011 00:46 SeraKuDA wrote: Well I'm thinking more on the lines of going another tech, such as 2 gate robo, or 3 gate robo, or maybe stargate play. This gives you a chance to develop those. You know, get an immortal or two out a bit earlier.
As I posted above, watch the VOD. Artosis uses an exactly what you want. He gets a robo and an immortal and totally crushes the 4WG rush
I can't see this being viable without destroying PvT. Holding a 3-rax timing with later warpgate/less chronoboosts would be difficult (can't chrono your warpgates), not to mention the extra chronoboost you'd need for warpgate research takes away potentials ones needed for robos/tech.
Truly, I think this is a bad suggestion- eventually the 4gate vs 4gate problems of PvP will get solved, rather than suggesting unreasonable changes (consider the other matchups' timings and effects), you should be working on defenses against a 4 gate push. EDIT; Above this post is an Artosis' instructional video you should watch.
On February 19 2011 00:47 Dental Floss wrote: If warp gate researched needs another nerf it should probably be to the cost next time. Making it an extra 50 gas would slow it down and reduce the number of units you can hit with.
This suggestion is worse. If warpgate cost 50 more gas, Protoss would either have to sacrifice the initial stalker or delay warpgate tech when the cyber finishes. With the former, 2 marauder push wins. With the latter, 3 rax wins. The problem would be even worse in PvZ, where you need an early 200 gas just for starting warp gate tech and a single sentry? Please consider your suggestions and their ramifications before bothering to post them.
On February 19 2011 00:47 Koszmarny wrote: After some thought ... Warp-gate should be like other tech routes - counterable by early agression. To make it happen the cost should be increased, increasing the time is not enough.
What.
Just what.
You pretty much need warp gate tech to hold off any kind of early kind aggression.
They should make it so warpgates produce slower then gateways. The way I see it, if you're in defensive mode you make units from gateways, when you're in aggressive/attacking mode you turn your buildings into warpgates so you can warp in units on the field of battle. I think this would give an advantage to the defender in pvp.
An easier way to stop 4gate in PvP IMO would just not let you be able to warp units up ledges. It would have an impact on the other matchups though without being able to warp up units but I dont think it would be THAT significant, and it would end most of the 4gate pvp trouble
this actually makes the 4gate stronger in pvp and weaker in other matchups which I'm pretty sure is not what you were looking for.
currently, if some one was 4gating you they'd have their warpgates done by 5:30 because they are cb'ing it constantly, whereas yours might come at ~6:00 or shortly thereafter.
If you had 20 seconds to it, they are still prioritizing cb'ing warpgates over everything else and you are not. So now yours comes at 6:20, 20 seconds later. Theirs will come less than 20 seconds later because of cb
The only thing this will change is you might be able to get an additional unit out before warpgates finish which probably WOULD make pvp warpgate easier to hold off, but the effect it would have on the other matchups is too great to justify the change
On February 19 2011 01:13 Zaphid wrote: If you are dedicated to being good at this game, shape your strategy to the game, not the game to your strategy
It's totally logical that chrono-boosting warpgate will be strong almost no matter what the research time. If you chrono boost warpgate, it let's all of your gateways produce the first warp unit 10 seconds faster, if you chrono a gateway you only save 10 seconds on that 1 unit. So in a 4-gate chrono boosting your warpgate lets you get out every series of units that come out of a warpgate.
Wow... Increasing the time of warp gate research would mean that any kind of 2 rax marine pressure would kill a Protoss pretty fast. Not to mention all the early M&M pushes you see on the ladder in PvT. You absolutely need warp gate out fast to survive these pushes. The production time on just gateways are just too slow to deal with it.
On February 19 2011 00:41 SeraKuDA wrote: As everyone most likely knows by now, PvP is a matchup dictated by the 4 gate. There have been many attempts at countering it, yet because of it's simplicity, it remains the number one opening. Any strategies designed to counter it are much more difficult to pull off correctly, and this causes frustration amongst most Protoss players.
Now, I realize the warpgate research time was already increased in the Beta, but what I'm suggesting is that another increase might solve the problems with the 4 gate. Another 20 or 30 seconds to the upgrade should mean you have enough to hold it off a lot easier with a different build. From my experience, the 4 gate push arrives just a little bit before I'm really ready to deal with it, and that's where the strength of it lies. So perhaps another increase to the research time may be all it takes.
Anyways, I'm more or less throwing that out there to generate some discussion on it. Your thoughts?
Did you even think before posting? Sorry, but just think! Delaying the warpgate research time will just result in a later 4 gate warpgate. There will be no difference in the game. And after that it would affect the matchup against T and Z where you need warpgate that early against a roach rush or marine/marauder push.
PvP is essentially the ZvZ of SC2. Zvz in this game is much more likely to have variations.
This idea just makes no sense the issue is regardless the other options are just not nearly as viable. Sentry blocking until colossi will result in blink stalkers. Immortals dont produce fast enough during 3gate 1robo to really be viable, but there could be an eventual build where this works out, but it would probably involve 1gate into robo ASAP into 2 more gates.
In the end though until someone finds a really good way to hold off 4 gate it will be a battle of the 4gates.
You're 2800 masters, anything below like 3500 is essentially trash in terms of theory-crafting ability
O good Lord.. OP is just making a suggestion and isn't really claiming to be #1 PRO GOSU ULTRA UBER GOD-LIKE. Jeebus. No reason to call the guy trash. Just ridic.
On February 19 2011 01:01 SeraKuDA wrote: Alright, yeah I'll try and work out that 3 stalker play. Looks good.
I don't have the replay, but judging from Artosis' video i think his opponents 1st warpin is about 30s too late. This is not entirely due to the active scouting, but to the sloppy play of his opponent. Not scouting your opponents main and just checking for proxys in you main is also not advised imho. It is crucial you can have a look on you opponents nexus energy for identifying a 4gate as well as for detecting proxies somewhere on the map, which you cannot see if you are just scouting in your own base.
It might work, but it is more of a gamble than scouting a 4gate by nexus energy and playing a zealot heavy defensive 4gate on small ramps yourself to defend it and tech to colossi or sth else if you feel your opponent is not going through with it.
On February 19 2011 01:01 SeraKuDA wrote: Alright, yeah I'll try and work out that 3 stalker play. Looks good.
Not scouting your opponents main and just checking for proxys in you main is also not advised imho. It is crucial you can have a look on you opponents nexus energy for identifying a 4gate as well as for detecting proxies somewhere on the map, which you cannot see if you are just scouting in your own base.
Artosis doesn't advocate not scouting your opponents main, he sends a probe after checking his base, but doesn't show it on the replay because he's explaining the build he's doing to the viewers (he even states that).
The 3 stalker proxy denial is a great opening imo, though Tyler had some interesting comments on it being easy to adjust to if you scout it (i.e. you can read the build early enough to just retune your strat into a more economic opener)
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In terms of actually reducing the effectiveness of a 4gate via game changes, I would rather see something like unit warp in times scaling with proximity to a nexus.
i.e. at home (within 60 range of a nexus or w/e) your units warp in over 5 seconds, half the map away they warp in over 7 seconds, the full map away they warp in over 9 etc
It wouldn't harm Protoss defensively, but would slow their early offence (i.e. reduce the power of the 4gate somewhat (particularly in pvp)). I'm not sure quite how much of an impact slightly longer warp in times would have on mid/late game reinforcements though, not being able to reinforce quite so quickly might be a pain (though then again, come late game chances are you've got a nexus in a more central location anyway)
This would mess TvP up early game to the point that toss would NEVER be able to hold you off without perfect forcefields,,, and the point about the chronoboost is valid, a player who sat there chrono'ing out would get his warpgate research even sooner than you if it was made longer and he was rushing for it, Its an interesting thought, personally i dont think PvP is broken, it is like all the other mirror match-ups, players use a solid build that would crush the opponent unless he either did the same or had good micro and a solid build to beat it, This game is evolving however and terrans having the most options available infront of them seems to be doing it faster than the zerg and toss. TvT is no longer about who can get the bigger force by a set amount of time then go and crush the other, alot of the time it comes down to tank placments and harassment sucess chipping away at the opponent and is often about the long macro game. I do hope that soon PvP and ZvZ will turn out like this where the game comes down to outplaying your opponent rather than rushing them but it is the players that adapt that end up doing well.
I had an idea to force deviation away from 4gate in PvP. Basically, my idea is that warp in times be affected by the distance away from the warpggate. Make in base warp ins just about instant while making warp ins across the map considerably slower. Warping in would always choose the closest gateway.
hmm interesting. I think instead of changing the time of the warp in it would just add additional seconds to the next cooldown. But this discussion is not for these forums, my friends
On February 19 2011 01:26 MoreFaSho wrote: It's totally logical that chrono-boosting warpgate will be strong almost no matter what the research time. If you chrono boost warpgate, it let's all of your gateways produce the first warp unit 10 seconds faster, if you chrono a gateway you only save 10 seconds on that 1 unit. So in a 4-gate chrono boosting your warpgate lets you get out every series of units that come out of a warpgate.
Now there is a certain point total you must reach before opening up a discussion on TL? I sure hope those guys at blizzard are 4000pt masters before they make any balance changes, otherwise they simply cannot fully grasp the game and its mechanics.
I have honestly began thinking of this same thing, but was worried like others that this might change the z and t matchups.
However, I have also given thought to the current thought of the gateway. Right now, no one ever uses normal gateways since warpgates can produce units faster, and proxy units from a pylon. I believe making the normal gates have less build time and increase the build time for warpgate resarch technology might be the answer.
4 gate proxy cheeses come later, and you can defend with your normal gateways while teching up. Cheese would involve going proxy gateways, which would require the same amount of risk as in broodwar.
So, basically making this change,on all MUs, it would not change the early game by that much since cheeses would be much more defendable, and you going proxy gateways is a much bigger risk than just proxying a pylon somewhere.
EPT
