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On January 08 2011 07:09 hunts wrote:
I've tried this a few times on small maps vs P for fun, it can work if their bad or if you just catch them off guard, but it is an all in so I would not suggest doing it. Especially if you're still in plat, which basicly means you still need to learn your basics. All ins like that can work/be fun once in a while, but relying on them as a whole will not make you a better player.
Unfortunately people like mythyasha like to convince themselves of their own importance. However coming to the painful realization that they're a platinum scrub, they resort to "contribute" by posting the only thing they can do: shitty attack move all ins that require bronze level skill to pull off.
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I'm not very high, like 2450 or so diamond but I've gotten this to work a few times on ladder, but like i said I was screwing around with this, it is definitely not something that should be used often or in serious games, and I really hope the OP realizes this and learns to play standard so that he can become a better player.
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On January 08 2011 07:12 hunts wrote:
I'm not very high, like 2450 or so diamond but I've gotten this to work a few times on ladder, but like i said I was screwing around with this, it is definitely not something that should be used often or in serious games, and I really hope the OP realizes this and learns to play standard so that he can become a better player.
I've had the dishonour of playing with the guy. Trust me theres no chance of that.
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@ hunts, yea this build is definite all-in build.
@IVXX, Dont even start.  i dont know how i failed against this stuipd build rofl. I was so offguard that i just forgot to get my assimilator up :'( anywho, yea this build is definite silver league style so dont take this advise
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1. the rofl stomping of mediocre diamonds on any kind of innovation is just ridiculous. Also those guys telling you how they think the game has to be played annoy me.
2. Any winning strategy is valid. Drone pumping is macro cheese (hoping the opponent does not do a timing push, as scouting is always incomplete), so wtf.
3. Since i won't dedicate half of my spare time training starcraft, i'll probably never get higher than plat. So i am interested in strats which work at my level of play. If you only want diamond proof strats, just create a new forum/section.
Regarding the strat: i'll definitely try it. Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese. However you have to apply equal or more damage to your opponent.
Anybody just counting drones to weight a build is an idiot, regardless of league. It is a general principle, that you cut drones in order to do damage. However a good strat applies more damage to your opponent's eco than to yours ;-).
"not to be used in serious games" lololololol. A game should never be serious :-D
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On January 08 2011 07:12 hunts wrote:
I'm not very high, like 2450 or so diamond but I've gotten this to work a few times on ladder, but like i said I was screwing around with this, it is definitely not something that should be used often or in serious games, and I really hope the OP realizes this and learns to play standard so that he can become a better player.
Yeah ! Everybody please play standard .. really exciting. Surprising games are awful and have to get eliminated. Real guys always do standard ...
playing standard means being mediocre at best, hahaha.
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On January 08 2011 07:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
1. the rofl stomping of mediocre diamonds on any kind of innovation is just ridiculous. Also those guys telling you how they think the game has to be played annoy me.
2. Any winning strategy is valid. Drone pumping is macro cheese (hoping the opponent does not do a timing push, as scouting is always incomplete), so wtf.
3. Since i won't dedicate half of my spare time training starcraft, i'll probably never get higher than plat. So i am interested in strats which work at my level of play. If you only want diamond proof strats, just create a new forum/section.
Regarding the strat: i'll definitely try it. Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese. However you have to apply equal or more damage to your opponent.
Anybody just counting drones to weight a build is an idiot, regardless of league. It is a general principle, that you cut drones in order to do damage. However a good strat applies more damage to your opponent's eco than to yours ;-).
"not to be used in serious games" lololololol. A game should never be serious :-D
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and normally I wouldn't bother but since I'm still waiting for sc2 to reinstall I may as well tell you why you're bad.
1. Its cause the strats horrible. Someone posts a strat, people analyze it and give their opinions. The strat sucks and thus the comments look like they do.
2. "Drone pumping is macro cheese"...lol. The reason u dont get higher than plat probably isnt cause of lack of practice but cause all your ideas about the game are just wrong. You pump drones to have an econ to make units. The skill is being able to balance drone and army. If drone pumping is cheese then I suppose every single Zerg ever cheeses 90% of their games.
3. A higher level forum would be nice, yes. Then good players wouldn't have to see the eyesore that is a mythyasha strategy post.
Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese
In this case you're sacrificing drone production to the point where your attack has to outright win or do huge damage, otherwise you lose. At that point I'm pretty sure its cheese.
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@ Schnullerbacke13 : you really cnat simply just say drone production/scv production/probe production is cheese. like what subtleart said, your idea of starcraft is wrong to not produce up drones. You need economy to proudce units, make up grades, and research on skills. Your bascially just saying now is "make units with number of drones you have with." seriously? so if i build up 90 probes/drones/scvs and make them work for building units, is that cheesy? pfft.
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On January 08 2011 07:02 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. And then once that fails you realize you have half the worker count of your opponent and a small handful of shitty units that move as fast as a snail. Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. Wow that loveholic guy u played must be wood league or something. Please post a useful rep. Unless your opponent is over 3000 diamond its meaningless honestly.
Chill out, man. Every single one of your posts in this thread makes you seem like an arrogant ass. Why do you have to be so condescending?
And this build isn't going to work if your first push doesn't work. If the opponent fends of the attack, you're going to be wayyy too behind in economy to come back.
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On January 08 2011 07:37 Precision wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:02 SubtleArt wrote:On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. And then once that fails you realize you have half the worker count of your opponent and a small handful of shitty units that move as fast as a snail. On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. Wow that loveholic guy u played must be wood league or something. Please post a useful rep. Unless your opponent is over 3000 diamond its meaningless honestly. Chill out, man. Every single one of your posts in this thread makes you seem like an arrogant ass. Why do you have to be so condescending? And this build isn't going to work if your first push doesn't work. If the opponent fends of the attack, you're going to be wayyy too behind in economy to come back.
Thanks captain obvious. I'm sure this wasn't apparent to anyone in this thread. Thanks for your enlightenment. I mean its not like the whole purpose of this strat is to build up to a single roach attack.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I watched your replays.
The first win VS Terran on Scrap Station clearly prooved your strategy worthless, at least against T. With the poorest micro and engagement of all time, the Terran chew through your roach ball and was way ahead in economy.
Forcing mineral-only units can't justify the loss in macro you're experiencing while doing this and you still can be crushed. End of discussion I guess.
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On January 08 2011 07:43 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:37 Precision wrote:On January 08 2011 07:02 SubtleArt wrote:On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. And then once that fails you realize you have half the worker count of your opponent and a small handful of shitty units that move as fast as a snail. On January 08 2011 07:01 mythyasha wrote:
@loveeholicce it is 17 drones at 5 min mark with 7 roaches with potential to do economic damage or win the game. Wow that loveholic guy u played must be wood league or something. Please post a useful rep. Unless your opponent is over 3000 diamond its meaningless honestly. Chill out, man. Every single one of your posts in this thread makes you seem like an arrogant ass. Why do you have to be so condescending? And this build isn't going to work if your first push doesn't work. If the opponent fends of the attack, you're going to be wayyy too behind in economy to come back. Thanks captain obvious. I'm sure this wasn't apparent to anyone in this thread. Thanks for your enlightenment. I mean its not like the whole purpose of this strat is to build up to a single roach attack.
Lol, don't be so hurt.
It's still a "strategy," regardless of how bad it is.
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Any decent terran that was going 2 raxx would know if he saw the zerg going 1 base, to scout for a roach warren or baneling nest. Once the warren has been scouted, then double bunker on my ramp, and throw down an in-base OC or even 2. Repair accordingly, you're not breaking that. Grats, your economy is now shot to pieces.
Plus, even if the terran doesn't scout the warren (who would be bad, cause they know you're 1 base, can keep the scout alive, and then can always scan at the 4.15 mark), the double gas steal has to alert them to something.
Personally, if you're going roach rush, I prefer 3RR. More terrans freak out when they see the 9 pool and stop scouting then. Still stopped by anyone with a clue.
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On January 08 2011 07:28 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
1. the rofl stomping of mediocre diamonds on any kind of innovation is just ridiculous. Also those guys telling you how they think the game has to be played annoy me.
2. Any winning strategy is valid. Drone pumping is macro cheese (hoping the opponent does not do a timing push, as scouting is always incomplete), so wtf.
3. Since i won't dedicate half of my spare time training starcraft, i'll probably never get higher than plat. So i am interested in strats which work at my level of play. If you only want diamond proof strats, just create a new forum/section.
Regarding the strat: i'll definitely try it. Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese. However you have to apply equal or more damage to your opponent.
Anybody just counting drones to weight a build is an idiot, regardless of league. It is a general principle, that you cut drones in order to do damage. However a good strat applies more damage to your opponent's eco than to yours ;-).
"not to be used in serious games" lololololol. A game should never be serious :-D
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and normally I wouldn't bother but since I'm still waiting for sc2 to reinstall I may as well tell you why you're bad. 1. Its cause the strats horrible. Someone posts a strat, people analyze it and give their opinions. The strat sucks and thus the comments look like they do. 2. "Drone pumping is macro cheese"...lol. The reason u dont get higher than plat probably isnt cause of lack of practice but cause all your ideas about the game are just wrong. You pump drones to have an econ to make units. The skill is being able to balance drone and army. If drone pumping is cheese then I suppose every single Zerg ever cheeses 90% of their games. 3. A higher level forum would be nice, yes. Then good players wouldn't have to see the eyesore that is a mythyasha strategy post. In this case you're sacrificing drone production to the point where your attack has to outright win or do huge damage, otherwise you lose. At that point I'm pretty sure its cheese.
to 1. A strat working in plat cannot be that bad. From the ladder i know, that low diamonds are not that much better.
to 2. Congrats to your insight. Your statement "pump drones to make units" really enlightened me. "90% Zerg play is cheese" => you got it: there is no cheese.
You are always balancing eco vs army. But if you figure out a weak timing window in your opponents build, you cut eco to exploit that weakness.
If the weakness exploited is early in the game, you call it "cheese", if it is exploited in late game you call it "serious play". The earlier in the game you try to exploit a weakness, the more likely it will be decisive or all-in-ish. However a lategame fail push is likely to end the game, it just takes some time until it is played out.
Ofc this strat is somewhat risky (its not all-in i think, as you will do significant damage pretty sure), anyway drone pumping can be risky too: How often do so-called macro zergs loose, because they overdroned ? they took too much risk hoping to get away with it. Looks quite cheesy to me, kind of eco all-in: if you get away with it, you basically have won, if not => loose.
to 3. You probably would not get access to a higher level forum if your major insight is "you need to pump drones in order to build units" ;-)
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". This build relies heavily on the element of surprise and is very much based on the 7 roach rush"
and by that you mean it's basicly the same, without ling speed if i see correctly, to be even more unstable and allin
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Oh god, I can sense the awkwardness and facepalms of all the people reading this :p
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Cool story OP. I can see this working on ladder against an opponent that doesn't know how to respond or never seen a double gas steal, but this is a one trick pony.
With no gas, there's nothing stopping terran from walling off with a bunch of bunkers at his ramp and camping with SCVs. Better yet, he can bunker rush you and contain you at your base. He won't be at an economic disadvantage even with the camping SCVs because of mules and constant SCV production while your economy is in the shit. And all those precious minerals used to make bunkers? Don't know if you heard, but bunkers are free in this game.
For protoss, if I get double gas stolen I'm immediately going to cannon rush you. And that shuts down your early aggression. Try the rush after being cannon contained and you'll be rolled. If you don't die to the cannon rush this will just become a standard PvZ game.
This is good for pumping out a bunch of fast wins on ladder if that's what you care about. I don't really care about just getting the wins but I do like a cheesy game every once in a while to mix up the pace. Maybe like 1 out of 10 games. I was recently demoted to platinum and would this strategy have worked on me? Yeah, probably for 1 game. I'm kinda bad at this game. But now that I know how to respond would it work on me again? Probably not.
EDIT: Schnullerbacke13, you seem to be either trolling or adamantly defending a shitty strategy. The mark of a good cheese is that it's hard to hold off. This is not that hard to hold off compared to other cheeses. You telegraph cheese so early with a double gas steal. And regardless of whether you go lings or roaches, terran and protoss can respond the exact same way.
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On January 08 2011 07:34 loveeholicce wrote:
@ Schnullerbacke13 : you really cnat simply just say drone production/scv production/probe production is cheese. like what subtleart said, your idea of starcraft is wrong to not produce up drones. You need economy to proudce units, make up grades, and research on skills. Your bascially just saying now is "make units with number of drones you have with." seriously? so if i build up 90 probes/drones/scvs and make them work for building units, is that cheesy? pfft.
Everybody knows that. This is bronze level knowledge. I really would apreciate a higher level forum now :-), this forum is full of muppets telling me "Hi, you know you need to build drones in order to get money, because units aren't for free".
Droning becomes cheese, whenever you have to "hope" that your opponents does not push right now (because you do not really know because of incomplete scouting). This is exactly the same as hoping your opponent does not see your hidden pylon, when cannon rushing.
Cutting drones at the right time to make a decisive push is "SubtleArt" :-D
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lol, that subtleart kid's raging and thinking he's amazing because he can probably beat this build is funny.
This build is crap, if someone sees two drones, it's just way too obvious that you're going to gas steal.... Also, what are you going to do about your opponent's scout, obviously they will see a pathetically low drone count/roach warren (depending on when they scouted).. I don't play toss, but for terran, one geyser will allow for marauders eventually... And bunkers also exist.
Also, don't post 2000+ platinum, only try to post a build when you're... say, a 2500+ that can back up the build... You are making yourself look like a fool
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EPT
