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On January 08 2011 06:55 Stropheum wrote:
There is no midgame when you have 13 drones mining minerals at the 7 minute mark
This. If this rush fails or doesn't do significant damage(by significant I mean killing a good number of workers, killing his rax/gateway/etc.) you will pretty much lose unless your opponent hands you the game with a big mistake at some point in the game. Terran just has to get 1-2 bunkers at their wall and not stop marine production. Toss will have a bit harder of a time but they could probably get a forge and 1-2 cannons down in time. Don't forget that taking the gas gives them more time to mine minerals meaning they can afford more bunkers/cannons than they normally would be able to at the 5 minute mark.
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Well its of use against Protoss at least, against Terran you simply get marine rushed ..
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On January 08 2011 07:50 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 07:28 SubtleArt wrote:On January 08 2011 07:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
1. the rofl stomping of mediocre diamonds on any kind of innovation is just ridiculous. Also those guys telling you how they think the game has to be played annoy me.
2. Any winning strategy is valid. Drone pumping is macro cheese (hoping the opponent does not do a timing push, as scouting is always incomplete), so wtf.
3. Since i won't dedicate half of my spare time training starcraft, i'll probably never get higher than plat. So i am interested in strats which work at my level of play. If you only want diamond proof strats, just create a new forum/section.
Regarding the strat: i'll definitely try it. Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese. However you have to apply equal or more damage to your opponent.
Anybody just counting drones to weight a build is an idiot, regardless of league. It is a general principle, that you cut drones in order to do damage. However a good strat applies more damage to your opponent's eco than to yours ;-).
"not to be used in serious games" lololololol. A game should never be serious :-D
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and normally I wouldn't bother but since I'm still waiting for sc2 to reinstall I may as well tell you why you're bad. 1. Its cause the strats horrible. Someone posts a strat, people analyze it and give their opinions. The strat sucks and thus the comments look like they do. 2. "Drone pumping is macro cheese"...lol. The reason u dont get higher than plat probably isnt cause of lack of practice but cause all your ideas about the game are just wrong. You pump drones to have an econ to make units. The skill is being able to balance drone and army. If drone pumping is cheese then I suppose every single Zerg ever cheeses 90% of their games. 3. A higher level forum would be nice, yes. Then good players wouldn't have to see the eyesore that is a mythyasha strategy post. Cutting eco in order to do a push is not cheese In this case you're sacrificing drone production to the point where your attack has to outright win or do huge damage, otherwise you lose. At that point I'm pretty sure its cheese. to 1. A strat working in plat cannot be that bad. From the ladder i know, that low diamonds are not that much better. to 2. Congrats to your insight. Your statement "pump drones to make units" really enlightened me. "90% Zerg play is cheese" => you got it: there is no cheese. You are always balancing eco vs army. But if you figure out a weak timing window in your opponents build, you cut eco to exploit that weakness. If the weakness exploited is early in the game, you call it "cheese", if it is exploited in late game you call it "serious play". The earlier in the game you try to exploit a weakness, the more likely it will be decisive or all-in-ish. However a lategame fail push is likely to end the game, it just takes some time until it is played out. Ofc this strat is somewhat risky (its not all-in i think, as you will do significant damage pretty sure), anyway drone pumping can be risky too: How often do so-called macro zergs loose, because they overdroned ? they took too much risk hoping to get away with it. Looks quite cheesy to me, kind of eco all-in: if you get away with it, you basically have won, if not => loose. to 3. You probably would not get access to a higher level forum if your major insight is "you need to pump drones in order to build units" ;-)
1. No platinum is a joke. Low diamonds are bad too but not as horrible. If you wanna go by iCCup low diamond is a D- and platinum is E to E-. yes, theyre that bad you just don;t realize it. the fact that this beats platinums is about as useful as me saying getting drunk before a spelling bee is a good idea because I can beat 5 year olds. No matter how shitty it is its always going to be overshadowed by how horrendous the competition is.
2. You're the one whos oversimplifying it. I'm just saying that you need lots of drones to be able to macro well and considering how bad zerg units are cost for cost you need more workers than the opponent. Zerg play is either go all in or make drones until you absolutely have to make units to hold off a push. If you make units too early, like I can guarentee you do judging by your statements then any competant player( competant not being a platinum obviously) will just expand behind a bunker and tanks and take his econ lead.
You also have the wrong idea for cheese, althogh the term all in is a little more clear. A cheese is just an attack with no reasonable followup. In the early game if you commit so much to an attack that its failure to outright win will leave you in a position where you can't have a decent follow through then its cheese. This attack leaves you with like 17 drones 6 minutes into the game, and thus its a cheese because you're guarenteed to be really behind if you fail. In the lategame when you have lots of bases, your tech up, lots of workers, an attack can't really be called a cheese because your options to follow through are much greater. Of course theres exceptions. In Sc1 TvP if i go 6 fact timing off 2 base and my push fails then im pretty much in a position where I can't recover vs a decent toss, and thus the attack is considered an all in.
As for the drone thing you can really take anything to an extreme. If i take my 3rd and make 60 drones under nothing but 12 speedlings then yes it can be called econ cheese but looking at more realistic examples no, its just how ur supposed to play Zerg because its units suck cost for cost. You really think pros who play for reputation and money drone whore only out of stubborn refusal to change the way they play?
3. Indeed, but it wasn't directed to the strat forum, it was directed to you, and when im speaking to a scrub that can't even make low diamond I gotta take it down to your level, you know?
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sorry I'm new to posting here and don't mean to sound like a dick, but it just makes me sad. Zerg is THE macro race, our units are cheap, not very cost effective, and we can make them by the truck loads once our econ gets up and running. Zerg is basicly meant to be platyed by having at least 1 base up on your oponent, and it just makes me so sad to see zergs that insist on consistantly going for 1 base attacks.
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Someone close this thread please, this is a strategy that does NOT work unless the opponent is blind and does not have any game sense. Also people are raging and OP is obv. not taking any advice/trolling.
Ex.
Scout at 11 -> see roach warren building, get double gas stolen.
*reaction*
toss down 2-3 bunkers, pump rines from 2-3 rax, keep 1-2 scv's there for repair.
Laugh in Zerg's face.
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Wow, i cant believe how many people read this non-sense joke build ROFL. @ Schnullerbacke13, so you think most of zerg users just prdouce drones when they go heavy econ? wow then guess again. They will eventually cut off between to macro a bit and then go back to their drones. Like SubtleArt said, zerg units are cost for cost, needed constantly produced. How are you gonna fulfill those units if you dont have good number of drones gathering resource?
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On January 08 2011 09:44 RoseTempest wrote:
Someone close this thread please, this is a strategy that does NOT work unless the opponent is blind and does not have any game sense. Also people are raging and OP is obv. not taking any advice/trolling.
Ex.
Scout at 11 -> see roach warren building, get double gas stolen.
*reaction*
toss down 2-3 bunkers, pump rines from 2-3 rax, keep 1-2 scv's there for repair.
Laugh in Zerg's face.
I have been waiting for this post to come up... :D thank you for stating the reality :D
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@SubtleArt: Had a losing streak?
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On January 08 2011 09:42 hunts wrote:
sorry I'm new to posting here and don't mean to sound like a dick, but it just makes me sad. Zerg is THE macro race, our units are cheap, not very cost effective, and we can make them by the truck loads once our econ gets up and running. Zerg is basicly meant to be platyed by having at least 1 base up on your oponent, and it just makes me so sad to see zergs that insist on consistantly going for 1 base attacks.
My friend just doesnt understand the term of "macro" and "drone production". The games he plays agaisnt me alawys come out to be less drones that he was suppose to have or not having enough unit counts. These kind of builds really set newcomers of SC2 to have a wrong ideaology of the game mechanics for different race.
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This build has been around a LOOOONNGG time (remember maybe 2 months ago when everyone 7RR'ed?). In fact this is almost the exact build the first Zerg Build Optimizer spit out for 7 roaches.
It still works, even in Mid-Diamond (where I am), especially on close position maps like Steppes of War, so it's "legit". It is pretty cheesy though, and there's no transition at all whatsoever. Either you win with it or just gg out since you will be very far behind unless you do MAJOR damage.
As Terran, you MUST build two bunkers to defend this. With Protoss, a combination of sentries stalkers, or canons will hold this, but you can't get too greedy. Any self respecting zerg who scouts will see what's happening and defend this easily.
Any decent player MIGHT get caught by this build once. Afterwards, it stops working (and hence why you don't see 7RR on ladder much anymore).
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On January 08 2011 09:44 RoseTempest wrote:
Someone close this thread please, this is a strategy that does NOT work unless the opponent is blind and does not have any game sense. Also people are raging and OP is obv. not taking any advice/trolling.
Ex.
Scout at 11 -> see roach warren building, get double gas stolen.
*reaction*
toss down 2-3 bunkers, pump rines from 2-3 rax, keep 1-2 scv's there for repair.
Laugh in Zerg's face.
You steal gas way before you build the roach warren (nice one)
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Why is SubtleArt still posting here? He's contributed nothing, and is just annoying.
Anyways, I feel like this has potential to catch people off guard, just like any other starcraft strategy.
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On January 08 2011 09:54 ToneBone wrote:
With Protoss, a combination of sentries stalkers, or canons will hold this, but you can't get too greedy.
Just curious as to how you get a combination of sentries and stalkers at 5 minutes after both of your gasses have been stolen?
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On January 08 2011 09:51 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 09:42 hunts wrote:
sorry I'm new to posting here and don't mean to sound like a dick, but it just makes me sad. Zerg is THE macro race, our units are cheap, not very cost effective, and we can make them by the truck loads once our econ gets up and running. Zerg is basicly meant to be platyed by having at least 1 base up on your oponent, and it just makes me so sad to see zergs that insist on consistantly going for 1 base attacks. My friend just doesnt understand the term of "macro" and "drone production". The games he plays agaisnt me alawys come out to be less drones that he was suppose to have or not having enough unit counts. These kind of builds really set newcomers of SC2 to have a wrong ideaology of the game mechanics for different race.
this is pretty interesting coming from a scrub whos core build is 4 warpgate all in. Oh you're protoss its not like u can do anything else or play in any way that would warrant respect
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On January 08 2011 09:54 ToneBone wrote:
This build has been around a LOOOONNGG time (remember maybe 2 months ago when everyone 7RR'ed?). In fact this is almost the exact build the first Zerg Build Optimizer spit out for 7 roaches.
It still works, even in Mid-Diamond (where I am), especially on close position maps like Steppes of War, so it's "legit". It is pretty cheesy though, and there's no transition at all whatsoever. Either you win with it or just gg out since you will be very far behind unless you do MAJOR damage.
As Terran, you MUST build two bunkers to defend this. With Protoss, a combination of sentries stalkers, or canons will hold this, but you can't get too greedy. Any self respecting zerg who scouts will see what's happening and defend this easily.
Any decent player MIGHT get caught by this build once. Afterwards, it stops working (and hence why you don't see 7RR on ladder much anymore).
7RR is still in the ladder, but people know how to react to it now.
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all i have to say is.
if your in platnuim. and playing zerg. your better off working on your macro then trying to figure out new 1 base all in timings.
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On January 08 2011 10:00 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 09:51 loveeholicce wrote:On January 08 2011 09:42 hunts wrote:
sorry I'm new to posting here and don't mean to sound like a dick, but it just makes me sad. Zerg is THE macro race, our units are cheap, not very cost effective, and we can make them by the truck loads once our econ gets up and running. Zerg is basicly meant to be platyed by having at least 1 base up on your oponent, and it just makes me so sad to see zergs that insist on consistantly going for 1 base attacks. My friend just doesnt understand the term of "macro" and "drone production". The games he plays agaisnt me alawys come out to be less drones that he was suppose to have or not having enough unit counts. These kind of builds really set newcomers of SC2 to have a wrong ideaology of the game mechanics for different race. this is pretty interesting coming from a scrub whos core build is 4 warpgate all in. Oh you're protoss its not like u can do anything else or play in any way that would warrant respect
oh wait, sorry i go P/T  like i said. Go read my profile? GLEEEEEN :D
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On January 08 2011 09:59 rawk wrote:
Why is SubtleArt still posting here? He's contributed nothing, and is just annoying.
Anyways, I feel like this has potential to catch people off guard, just like any other starcraft strategy.
He is contributing alright. He is teaching my friend/ his friend not to play like a noob and actually understand the mechanics of the zerg. I wouldn't really talk garbage if i were you...
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On January 08 2011 06:52 mythyasha wrote:
Note to readers SubtleArt lost to this build.
i lol'd
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ye i do this build for my opener and expand/lair or speed depending on the match up :D and im in plat :D been trying other builds and lost loads and now im back to using this build oh btw it also works against zerg but you need to scout early with the drone so you know not to make roaches and make lings instead incase of a 6 pool
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EPT
