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I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW!
This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene.
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On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene.
He really did that ?
wow...
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On December 31 2010 19:41 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out. It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge. But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry. I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
I disagree. I'm a fan of eSports but i firmly believe that if an inferior sequal is able to wring the life out of it's predecessor then that just delegitimises eSports as a whole and prevents it from ever being as viable as 'ordinary athletic sports'. It's not eSports if theres no longevity and the 40% to 60% of the fan/plaerbase jumps ship each time SC3 and WAR4 come out.
I also disagree that SC2 is already a strong eSport. The essence of a viable spectator sport is that of which many of the spectators are casual viewers. That fat guy with a huge pot belly watching football...does he play? Fangirls creaming themselves upon witnessing jangbi storms...do they play?
As of right now the entirety of SC2 viewership is completely made up of kids trying to get higher up the ladder. So no i don''t believe SC2 is an eSport yet.
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On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow...
No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different.
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Just way untill Blizzard grows tired of SC2 and then the community will take over and everything will be fine and dandy. Until then... I like playing sc2 ladder. And who says you can't play both? Just play BW when you feel like it. For example, the recent RACE WARS thread motivated me to go play killing fields just to see wassup with the map, it felt nice to play BW again after months.
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On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different.
I can't see any evidence of that.
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On December 31 2010 21:02 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different. I can't see any evidence of that.
He used to have HuskytheHusky channel on which were all the bw vods but Youtube says he has closed that channel so I guess these are gone.
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On December 31 2010 21:17 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 21:02 Garrl wrote:On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different. I can't see any evidence of that. He used to have HuskytheHusky channel on which were all the bw vods but Youtube says he has closed that channel so I guess these are gone.
HtH was dead a long time before he started doing SC2 Beta stuff. His SCBW games were up on HuskySC for a long while.
I heard he removed them because he wanted partner status, so he needed his own content and not VODs from SCBW, but he definitely has got rid of the BW vods from both channels.
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2 years from now:
MULEs nerfed to 65% of what they do now.
Warpgate tech moved to Citadel
Queens inject 3 larva.
+random fixes to actually make this balanced
+ Air-to-Air unit with splash damage for each race to make air dominance battles interesting.(remember BW) IMO they purposely left this out to have a go-to unit for the expansion.
IF SC2 were to remain unchanged, it would die out prematurely, but 2(!!) expansion packs are coming and millions of dollars of motivation are there to make sure the game DOESN'T die out.
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On December 31 2010 18:47 Osmoses wrote:
You've probably heard this argument before, but SC2 is a brand new game, as you say, so how can you expect it to be just as good now as a 12 year old perfectly polished game like BW?
I don't think SC2 is nearly as good as BW right now, but to say it never will be is stupid and shortsighted.
Nah no it's not. I said that Command and Conquer will never be as good of a game as BroodWar 6 months after it came out and I was right.
I said that War3 will never be as good of a game as BroodWar 6 months after it came out and I was right.
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place. They'll be unlikely to change their minds and redesign the whole thing, and that's why SC2 will never be as good as BroodWar.
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On December 31 2010 21:57 gen.Sun wrote:
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place.
And what would those things be, that cannot be changed by a simple tweak?
I'm honestly asking, none are coming to my mind atm.
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On December 31 2010 20:14 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol... TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team. Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive. Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous.
Sorry but you're wrong. There was never a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed after SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed after SC2 came out.
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On December 31 2010 22:15 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:14 dogabutila wrote:On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol... TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team. On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive. Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous. Sorry but you're wrong. There was never a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed after SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed after SC2 came out.
Sorry but you're wrong. There was a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed before SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed before SC2 came out.
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On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie.
I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing.
Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around.
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On December 31 2010 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 21:57 gen.Sun wrote:
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place. And what would those things be, that cannot be changed by a simple tweak? I'm honestly asking, none are coming to my mind atm.
Sure, for instance the idea that every race needs good mobility.
Hence you have the introduction of warps, and medivacs, blink!!! and the loss of strong defensive or positional play brought about by features such as mines, supply depot walls, and high ground advantage.
Or the idea that every race needs a stable mid tier 'tank' unit. Hence you get shit like roaches and Marauders, and now most matchup midgame plays like BroodWar PvP.
This is a very command and conquer philosophy that watch every match turn into tank rush. Complete fail. It also bares mentioning how terrible the Thor unit is. It's almost like a Battlecruiser in how huge and high up the tech tree it is, but it's a completely necessary part of a mech army, yet it sucks balls compared to the goliath. It's a huge misfit.
Also minor fails like moving spine crawlers. That kind of leap frog positional play is the territory of the terran, if the zerg can do that then the terran loses part of what makes their play unique.
These changes bring all the races much closer together, and the matchups lose much of their distinctiveness.
Also just general and random noobification. For instance in BW you had to be very careful of your scout timings and scout positioning to keep yourself map aware, now you just send 1 probe to the xelnaga towers. When I first saw that 'feature' i literally had a facepalm.
Also the 'macro mechanics' are completely broken, but that's been covered over and over.
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On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around.
I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams.
It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo.
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On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo.
fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities
However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it.
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Although I consider myself a BW fan, I hope SC2 turns out great with the expansions simply because I wish nothing but the best from the bottom of my heart for people like InControl, White-Ra, and many other foreigners who we love.
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On December 31 2010 22:48 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo. fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it.
It depends on where the money goes. There's like 20 Korean companies that support eSports. All together they have like 500 billion dollars of market value.
If those companies decide to invest in SC2, have it fail, then that may turn them off eSports forever.
If those companies keep on investing in BW as they have been doing, then whatever happens in SC2 will not damage BW.
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On December 31 2010 22:55 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:48 kaisr wrote:On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo. fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it. It depends on where the money goes. There's like 20 Korean companies that support eSports. All together they have like 500 billion dollars of market value. If those companies decide to invest in SC2, have it fail, then that may turn them off eSports forever. If those companies keep on investing in BW as they have been doing, then whatever happens in SC2 will not damage BW.
well then you're just talking about the korean scene where BW is as active and alive as ever. Its only in the foreign scene that BW is pretty much completely dead, and theres no way korean companies would invest in foreign tournaments.
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EPT
