I have maybe 40 replays in my folder against Zerg, I maybe have 6 wins. I try to 4gate, they throw down two spines, I try to macro, they change army composition in one click. I go Colossi, he gets two corruptors and roaches. I make phoenix, he has 20 hydras in one click. I just dont see how a Protoss can win. Any help, would be greatly appreciated.

A few reps attached, perhaps some rage at the end of these, IDK.

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ForTeEscaPe

United States38 Posts

December 09 2010 05:15 GMT

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167705

mizU

United States12125 Posts

December 09 2010 05:19 GMT

Try posting some of your replays, it'll be more helpful than your slightly biased and not-so informative game summaries.
Also, 4gate is fairly easy to counter vs a zerg. Change it up!

eth3n

718 Posts

December 09 2010 05:22 GMT

On December 09 2010 14:19 mizU wrote:
Try posting some of your replays, it'll be more helpful than your slightly biased and not-so informative game summaries.

this + work on sentry micro

coitus

Canada8 Posts

December 09 2010 05:24 GMT

So you've tried 4 gate and it doesn't work lol. Well i can tell you that 4 gate is a risky build and can be defended by good zerg players. What i do is 2 gate fast expand. if you see him go hatch first before pool then you can pretty much expand as soon as warpgate is finished (you're making zealots/sentries btw). If he goes pool first, then make a few more zealots before you throw down teh nexus. Make sure you follow up appropriately after you put down your nexus though, what i do is throw down a third gateway and either robotics or stargate. Personally I go stargate and chronoboost a voidray. This helps defend against roaches, and you can burn overlords that are just floating outside their base, and harass his buildings like the gas extractor to distract him.

mizU

United States12125 Posts

December 09 2010 05:43 GMT

Can you use a... replay site please?

us.insurgency

United States330 Posts

December 09 2010 05:45 GMT

Never 4 gate a zerg. I would only use it in a PvP but only to change it up.

TNZ Softmouth

United States14 Posts

December 09 2010 06:11 GMT

Updated with Reps, thanks for the suggestions so far =]

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

December 09 2010 06:22 GMT

On December 09 2010 14:15 ForTeEscaPe wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167705

This style actually loses to a lot of zerg play these days, unless the zerg assumes you're going to pressure. It's just not greedy enough for you to come out ahead against a Zerg who is being greedy (and sentries mean you can't really be aggressive, unfortunately)

Check this out, might help you
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992

Chairman Ray

United States11903 Posts

December 09 2010 07:28 GMT

#10

I think you are just using the wrong approach. Whatever you can throw at your opponent, of course they can counter it in some way. If they can't, then it's imbalanced. Why don't you try getting early hallucination, and scout with a hallu phoenix. Then you can see exactly what tech the Zerg is doing. Then the Zerg would be complaining about how you have phoenixes whenever he tries to go mutas and you have colossi whenever he tries to go hydras. You probly won't win all your games with this strategy, but it will give you a sense of how counters work.

dc302

Australia576 Posts

December 09 2010 08:08 GMT

#11

it sounds like you're not putting enough pressure on the zerg and letting him macro up too hard =/

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

December 09 2010 08:19 GMT

#12

Though the Plexa guide is a bit outdated (especially from a zerg point of view) it's still a good starting point. 4 gating is generally quite weak against zerg though as it's too easy to spot for them (zerg should be alerted by P being on only 1 gas immediately) and too easy to stop.

With regards to the unit mixes, I actually think your overreacting quite a bit on this point. Zerg leans on unit upgrades alot vs P so as they take so much time to get zerg CAN't effectively do fast unit swaps anyway.
For example suppose they are going heavy roach and are upgrading roach attack already. This should put the P into stalker + robo play generally while getting a few attack upgrades. If they are to switch units at this point (for example go muta) you have so much upgraded stalkers already that a simple blink upgrade automatically counters them fine.
In the same way it is really hard for them to switch from muta/ling back to roach/hydra that late.

Nevertheless it is quite easy for zerg to counter certain units fast, such as colossi. As a result I would never ever get too many colossi (just get 3 or so) and just force them into overproducing those corruptors. If he gets too many you simply switch to immortals straight away and you are still in a favorable composition. That's basically the trick with protoss vs zerg imo, you have to use compositions that are very robust to anything they throw at you and never invest too much in a unit they can too easily tech switch to counter. That's why the stalker is the baseline unit vs zerg really as there is no zerg hard counter to them and they mix well in any army.

TNZ Softmouth

United States14 Posts

December 09 2010 19:41 GMT

#13

I just feel as if I'm constantly behind. The zerg always seems to be one step ahead of me, whenever i finally get something to counter him, he has made a tech switch, and by the time i get to that tech, he has switched to another. My win ratio against non Zerg is roughly 70% and against Zerg I would say its around 30%. I understand how this game works, I try really hard to understand the strategies and such, but Zerg just has me completely baffled.

HardCorey

United States709 Posts

December 09 2010 20:21 GMT

#14

Yo SoftMouth, I just took a look at one of your replays and made a video commenting and reviewing it. I noticed you had some trouble keeping up economically with your zerg opponent and tried to build a bit too big of an army off of one base to try and win early. I see this kind of thing a lot in PvZ but try not to be too frustrated because there are definitely a few key things that you can work on that will make a world of difference.

Heres the video:HardCorey QuestionTime #13: Keeping up with Zerg Fast Expand as Protoss

My Main Thread

Hope this Helps,
-HardCorey

EDIT: Video needs to finish converting.

Vazzle

Uganda4 Posts

December 09 2010 20:32 GMT

#15

About a month back when I started playing again after a month (a month can do a lot to metagame) I was knocked into platnum for a bit because I kept losing to annoying all-in roach plays and gettig out macroed if I prepared for the worst. I feel your pain. The thing about Zerg is they only need one building to open up the tech path from which their hatchs can produce en masse.

But if you get a macro lead with a FE our options as toss open up incredibly. What you need is the ability to go for one tech path while also teching to the next one to be prepared for when Zerg responds. 15 nexus really works well for that reason. 15 nexus also kind of baits Zerg into making less drones and pushing in. It has the same effect as when you feign a push only it's reversed.

Playing standard is tough for toss in everything but pvp because you really gotta make sure your units earn their cost and one FF misplaced can be detrimental. Suprise Zerg. If I manage a safe 15 nexus I've gone for +2 carriers and have won almost everytime

Kiarip

United States1835 Posts

December 09 2010 20:46 GMT

#16

On December 09 2010 15:22 Plexa wrote:

Show nested quote +

whaaat? sentries let you be insanely aggressive.

Nony's build is pretty much the new 4 gate. It's really hard to beat, even if you do scout it, because of how strong sentries with a lot of energy are. Then he reinforces with stalkers from 5 warpgates, and you're really in trouble.

If you have lots of spines and go hydra, you can probably defend it with relative ease, but if you're going muta, you're going to have a lot of problems.

SubtleArt

2710 Posts

December 09 2010 20:52 GMT

#17

Lol you fail a 4 warp gate and are surprised at why you don't win...

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

December 09 2010 21:37 GMT

#18

You do know you can kill creep tumors, right? I watched the first replay and you were constantly giving him perfect information about your army and allowing him to outmanoeuvre you. Force fields, colossus control and attack timings were pretty bad too, but the creep tumors are matchup-specific.

TheGiz

Canada708 Posts

December 09 2010 21:45 GMT

#19

On December 10 2010 05:32 Vazzle wrote:
If I manage a safe 15 nexus I've gone for +2 carriers and have won almost everytime

These are both things that I think should become part of general Protoss strategy in the near future.

Fast Expanding:
Seeing as how Protoss now functions, it is becoming abundantly clear that Protoss needs to expand more than any other race, especially early. This works extremely well against Zerg, who are automatically economically behind unless they are allowed to Drone or expand relatively quickly.

Carriers:
While Zerg have both Hydras and Corruptors to deal with Carriers, I still think that they can fit into general gameplay soon. The upcoming patch is buffing the Stargate a little (Phoenixes are built faster), so Phoenix-heavy builds may become more common. This then opens up the possibility of a tech switch to Carriers because their damage scales so massively with upgrades.