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On November 21 2010 21:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
What Dimaga (and Fruitdealer) did was not cool either. It's not that Fruitdealer/Dimaga have more credibility but just the fact that these statements keep piling up and at one point people catch on to the bs that they are.
These guys are all amazing players and they don't need this at all.
Amazing enough that maybe they know the game and the matchups a little more than you?
If they think there's an imbalance, then that's their opinion. If they want to change their race, and want other people to discuss it, then why not?
If progamers aren't allowed to generate discussions about balance, who is?
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Well, the game is still new and raw so I dont blame people for following the fotm trends and switching to the race that seems "strongest" right now, especially progamers competing for lots of money.
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NexGenius is free to switch, and he is free to share his thoughts, but I don't really understand why people feel such a need to bitch about it. It's not like you get 1 free race-switch; you can switch whenever you want.
On that note, is he allowed to change his race in between prelim and ro64? or does he mean after GSL is done.
If he is not allowed to, then this makes me even more convinced that this is a "mindgame" statement to Blizzard in order to get a patch somewhere in between. Pretty pointless to announce a race switch before GSL starts when you are not allowed to change. I think i read his interview saying that he hoped for a patch before ro32 or something.
But regardless if he will change or not, all the best for Genius. This is a competitive game with huge prize money after all.
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The monst anoying thing in this thread is that ppl say "oh i hate whiners"
He did not whine at all, he stated he was gonna change his race, and asked which would suit him the best.
I saw not a shread of whine in the post. Quit complaining.
And to be honest. Protoss have been the race that complains by far the least of imalance.
Compared to Zerg and Terran Protoss has been extremely quit.
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On November 21 2010 21:03 goldenwitch wrote:
It sucks being P because all of our whiners were terribly patient. Because the other races whiners weren't so patient, everyone is fed up with whining. By the time toss players got fed up with playing the underpowered race, there were no ears that are willing to hear the true need that toss has for rebalancing.
the point that many toss users are patient you are absolutely right. But imo there is one thing you should consider:
When toss does one fight where he underestimate his opponent's army, its almost gg because you need the most resources and time to replace your army compared to all races. For toss, retreat should happen before the fight begins due to lack of mobility.
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On that note, is he allowed to change his race in between prelim and ro64? or does he mean after GSL is done.
He is not allowed to, you play with the race you registered. Although I am sure that they will let him if he asks really nice.
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On November 21 2010 21:00 ParasitJonte wrote:
Protosses aren't that underpowered... No stats or data anywhere would begin to even remotely suggest that.
GSL semifinal+ data, and GSL2/3 qualifying data would indicate there is an issue with their representation at the top levels.
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Interesting how things change in a few weeks, in GSL 2 when Artosis was interviewing him, he said that he thinks Protoss is the strongest race.
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On November 21 2010 20:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:24 lol12tree wrote:
Well sSKS has already been saying that TvP all-in timing pushes are over powered in one of the playxp interviews during his fail to qualify in GSL2 (not 3). I have no definitive source on this so don't quote me.
What we do know is that sSKS won the TSL Clan Tournament defeating SangHo in the finals.
TesteR changed his race to Terran to TvP SangHo and won.
I would like to see a Terran change to protoss to PvT a high level Terran.
Thats pretty strong argument if he beats own race by offracing. On topic: Terrans suits Genius better
at this moment, terran suits everyone better. It seems to me that people havent figured out how to abuse zerg properly yet and get closer to its higher skill ceiling, whereas terran is getting more mapped out, so it seems at the moment that terran is far more...fluid? of a race. It allows variety moreso then the other races, which I think is the key point to why Z and P whine about it so much
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Race that whines the most ---- wins GSL
Protoss confirmed for GSL3 winner
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On November 21 2010 21:21 maidu wrote:
Interesting how things change in a few weeks, in GSL 2 when Artosis was interviewing him, he said that he thinks Protoss is the strongest race.
Ha just hadn't noticed the imbalance yet.
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For those of you who can't understand why "blah blah I'm threatening to change my race if they don't tilt the game in my favor is stupid", it's the fundamentals of it. Everybody knows the first year or two is going to be exceptionally volatile in terms of balance. New strategies are going to be uncovered very quickly. Ideally, the game will be "balanced" around year three or four. These guys supposedly make their living by being able to see several moves ahead and making the appropriate move. They should know is going to going to be volatile for some time. Looking several moves ahead, what good does it do for you to constantly dance between races because your selected race has been considered "underpowered" for a span of less than a month? If you played ten-plus years of Starcraft and plan to play Starcraft II for a living, you should already know which race fits your playstyle. Gut it out and reap the rewards when Blizzard inevitably patches the game and "balances it in your favor".
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On November 21 2010 21:23 Widar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:21 maidu wrote:
Interesting how things change in a few weeks, in GSL 2 when Artosis was interviewing him, he said that he thinks Protoss is the strongest race. Ha just hadn't noticed the imbalance yet.
No I don't believe it was that. It's just Genius' personality, he's too confident sometimes. Now, when he's having trouble (like all Protoss atm) he's finally realized that he isn't the best and neither is his race.
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On November 21 2010 21:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:26 bokeevboke wrote:On November 21 2010 20:24 lol12tree wrote:
Well sSKS has already been saying that TvP all-in timing pushes are over powered in one of the playxp interviews during his fail to qualify in GSL2 (not 3). I have no definitive source on this so don't quote me.
What we do know is that sSKS won the TSL Clan Tournament defeating SangHo in the finals.
TesteR changed his race to Terran to TvP SangHo and won.
I would like to see a Terran change to protoss to PvT a high level Terran.
Thats pretty strong argument if he beats own race by offracing. On topic: Terrans suits Genius better at this moment, terran suits everyone better. It seems to me that people havent figured out how to abuse zerg properly yet and get closer to its higher skill ceiling, whereas terran is getting more mapped out, so it seems at the moment that terran is far more...fluid? of a race. It allows variety moreso then the other races, which I think is the key point to why Z and P whine about it so much
Yeah man even zergs should go switch to T, Terran won GSL1 and GSL2 so ez - oh wait
But if a protoss pro were to swtich, they should probably switch to Terran, since the macro mechanic of zerg is so much more different from T and P
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On November 21 2010 21:12 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:54 speedphlux wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well, if I'm correct, every single patch since the BETA, either was nerfing Protoss or didn't do anything with them.
Yeah, sure you can call the new level 1 Void Ray attack buffed, but Protoss air is still ... nowhere. Phoenixes have SOME use, Void Rays have SOME use, but that's it. There comes a time in each game in which your Terran or Zerg opponent have Vikings (or Thors, or BOTH) or Corruptors (or Infestors, or BOTH) and pretty much your whole air becomes nullified. In general, Protoss Air is only good as SURPRISE tactic. Nuff said ?
Same goes with Robo units - "Hey, I've got me a crittical mass of Collossi ! Ops - Tanks, Burrowing Roaches, Vikings, Corruptors, Infestors, Bane-drops, EMP, Stimmed Maroders and so on, comes your way.". Or "Hey, Double-Robo Immortals IS DA SHIT ! Ops, Zerglings, Marines, EMP, Thors and Hydras ... And you're dead.".
Even if you look back at BETA/Release times, when TLO was still playing Random, he sucked as Protoss, because he didn't had much options. Everything Protoss does gets countered from the other races, not by specific builds, but by playing straight up normal tech path. While the opposite isn't true. Zerg makes Mutas - shit, I better get cannons in my mineral lines and few Stalkers here and there. Terran goes bio-ball timing attack - shit, I don't have enough Sentries, Collossi, Templars. No wonder people want to change away from Protoss. + Show Spoiler +Then why don't you switch? (Assuming you're toss which your probe avatar suggests)
I really don't understand this half-assed heroic attitude in the sc2 community.
It seems that everyone chooses the race they believe to be the weakest, and keep reminding us how they stick with race X and should be lauded for it. Yet they don't carry through with the heroic attitude and feel that since they were heroic enough to stick with X they are entitled to use every single TL thread to bitch about how bad X is.
It is a COMPETITIVE game for fucks sake. That means you do what you can to compete for victory (as in sc2 victory, not as in moral victory). Choosing a weak race seems to me to be a weak strategical move, just like going 17hatch. If a person goes 17hatch and keeps complaining that 14hatching people have an advantage people don't commend the 17hatching player for sticking to his guns. It is Blizzard's job to balance the game, but if you believe you are at a disadvantage (whether from inferior strategy, inferior micro, inferior macro, or inferior race) you try to overcome it (whether by improving micro/macro, or trying new races/strategies).
NexGenius is free to switch, and he is free to share his thoughts, but I don't really understand why people feel such a need to bitch about it. It's not like you get 1 free race-switch; you can switch whenever you want.
I haven't switched, because I've been Protoss since Pre-BW SC and I'm not playing SC to compete, but TO HAVE FUN and enjoy myself. Kinda hard to enjoy yourself and to have fun, when you have to outthink, outmacro, outmicro and outplay your opponent 100% of the times.
I was just pointing out how easy it is for the other two races (Terran and Zerg) to counter whatever the Protoss is doing just on the fly, while one small mistake (misplaced force field, bad scouting route, etc.) can and will cost you the game as a Protoss.
I just hope Blizzard stop nerfing the shit out Protoss and start to consider maybe buffing up something. Phoenix range ? Or add splash damage to them ? Hardened Shields immune to EMP perhaps ? Carriers moving speed by a bit maybe ? You know, nothing ground breaking, just something that make us survive.
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I was a mid-high diamond level protoss and then switched races to zerg and then terran.
I did not switch because I felt Protoss was underpowered. I just switched because I wanted to learn more about the game and offracing for a large amount time is by far the most beneficial method to do so.
When I played Zerg I failed hard, very hard in the beginning because I lost to stupid things, but whenever I had a macrogame I won with ease.
After some time I switched to Terran and I won a shit ton of games. Way more then I did with protoss on the same level.
The first thing I noticed is, you never are in danger. Not like protoss where a missplaced forcefield ruins you the game. You can outplay your opponents in every matchup with all the possibilities terran has, there seem to be way more viable stategies to pull of safely.
I did not switch when poeple complained about terran beeing op, because Iam just not that type of person, but now I really consider staying with it.
iNconclusion(you see what I did there?) I dont think protoss is underpowered, I think its maybe even the strongest race if you are in a straight up game, but winning tournaments with it is rather hard, because your stategies are sometimes coinflips and you often lose to stupid pushes earlygame you shouldnt lose to in a perfect world.
e.g. the Raven/Banshee Push. You need a Stargate to hold it, but you also need a robo for detection. So you need to hold it this way but then you dont have enough units and just die if the terran hits the right timing.
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Don't think he will switch, more just doing what the well known zergs were doing earlier and hoping blizz takes notice. hopefully it works lol.
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Just like to note that I don't play protoss at all.
I dislike as a spectator the fact that protoss are doing bad even though they have very good players. In my opinion, sSKS is better than many players who were in r16 of GSL. Why? Because I never see significant mistakes in his games, most of his decisions are solid backed up with good micro. Similar to HopeTorture. Other players do horrible mistakes like not walling of properly, suiciding banelings into Thors or going all-in blindly. This might be one the reasons that I am losing interest in SC2 scene.
I hope to see some changes, even slightest. Glad that some top players have courage to complain openly.
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On November 21 2010 21:13 andrewwiggin wrote:
Amazing enough that maybe they know the game and the matchups a little more than you?
If they think there's an imbalance, then that's their opinion. If they want to change their race, and want other people to discuss it, then why not?
If progamers aren't allowed to generate discussions about balance, who is?
There's no need to try and insult my knowledge of the game.
Trying to create a public imbalance bandwagon by saying you will switch races, in the hope Blizzard will listen, while never actually changing your race is just an annoying thing to do. It's not nice to the fans nor the game.
Being around progamers a lot I can tell you they don't actually participate in discussions about balance. It's mostly everyone forming their own opinion off of their own games and not listening to anyone else's.
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I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins.
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EPT
