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On November 21 2010 21:13 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
What Dimaga (and Fruitdealer) did was not cool either. It's not that Fruitdealer/Dimaga have more credibility but just the fact that these statements keep piling up and at one point people catch on to the bs that they are.
These guys are all amazing players and they don't need this at all. Amazing enough that maybe they know the game and the matchups a little more than you? If they think there's an imbalance, then that's their opinion. If they want to change their race, and want other people to discuss it, then why not? If progamers aren't allowed to generate discussions about balance, who is?
The point is that they dont want to change their race, it's just an empty threat and they are pretty much full of it whenever they claim they want to.
If you think the games is imbalanced, say that you think the game is imbalanced and why. Don't say you're gonna switch races just to draw attention.
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On November 21 2010 21:12 ace246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:01 gnutz wrote:
If you come from Wc3/WoW you know that whining is a constant factor in playing Blizzards games. It comes down naturally to the fact that Blizzard decided to patch the game. It's obvious that all players, especially progamers want to make their race easier, but sometimes they are right imo.
At Pros complaining about whining pros? what do you think of early game TvP? (the reason the most protoss are complaining). Sometimes it looks like the 5rax reaper opening in TvZ if terran plays banshee/raven. (It looks like it, dont know how it is in reality on pro level) imba whining pretty much derived from wc3 community and that whining phenomenon has been infected to the sc2 community. I don't recall imba whining during the BW era.
Whining over balance to developers isnt restricted to Blizzard games and goes all the way back to text only muds. So to blame it on WC3 is a bit ripe.
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TBH the real problem is that Terran is too overpowered. all in strats are so easymode as terran and its the main reason good players lose to inferior ones (terrans beating protosses and zergs)
User was temp banned for this post. Cleaned up the reactions to this post.
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On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins.
This is pretty much why they do it. They learned by example. First the Zergs, and now Protoss is taking a page from their book. Whether it is balanced or not doesn't really matter at this point. You have Protoss missing from the top GSL spots, the players saying they will switch, their fans using these statements as proof to claim imbalance, and voila the problem is at Blizzards doorstep without anyone having any idea how this game will be played 2 years from now.
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Edit- Nevermind Nazgul just said what this post did
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IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely.
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Okay,so first Terran realised all-ins versus Zergs - they were dominant in both tournaments and ladder. Now,Terran got another ace upon their sleeves - all-ins versus Protoss - same thing as Zerg problem. Many Zerg players switched their races,same happening with Protoss right now. The question is:
Will it be easier to nerf Terran or to buff those two races without causing new imbalances?
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I think that Genius is making a strategic statement here. Unlike Fruitdealer's whinge, Genius isn't targeting a specific unit (dropship). I think he's just trying to get whatever bonuses he can out of it.
I really hope that Blizzard realise that if they do want to change the Protoss early game, they have to do so in a way that will not cripple the ZvP matchup. Even now, 4gate is very strong against zerg right up until the very top level (mainly due to larvae constraints). With proxy pylons, 4gate basically puts all the pressure on the zerg and if the initial engagement is lost, the zerg is screwed because the protoss can reinforce like they're in their own base.
This is the real cause of any problem Protoss may seem to have - proxy pylons mean that protoss is balanced around practically no reinforcement time. This means that, especially while defending, they can seem very fragile and succumb to intense pressure. So Protoss really can't have an early game "home ground" advantage because it would make timing gateway/proxy pylon attacks too strong. This means that if the game isn't perfectly balanced until tier 2 units hit the scene, that Protoss will either be too strong or too weak. Currently it seems that they are about balanced vs zerg and too weak against terran.
Not being a top-tier player myself, I believe that I am seeing the current TvP problems through "filtered down" imbalances. As zerg players have done better against Terran on the ladder, it means that we're facing stronger protoss players. Anecdotally, I lose far more games vs Protoss than I do vs Terran and I largely put that down to imbalances in the TvP matchup at higher levels.
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On November 21 2010 21:36 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins. This is pretty much why they do it. They learned by example. First the Zergs, and now Protoss is taking a page from their book. Whether it is balanced or not doesn't really matter at this point. You have Protoss missing from the top GSL spots, the players saying they will switch, their fans using these statements as proof to claim imbalance, and voila the problem is at Blizzards doorstep without anyone having any idea how this game will be played 2 years from now.
Its hard to tell whether the problem is if Protoss is weak at the very top level or there just aren't very many very good Protoss players. I can count on one hand the number of Protoss I would give a chance of winning a GSL but there are a million Zergs and Terrans who have a chance of winning GSL. I'm not a top level player by any means but I agree with whoever said on SOTG that Protoss feels like it is very unforgiving of mistakes while Terran and Zerg are more forgiving of screw ups.
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From NexGenius's post, it does really seem like he wants attention. What's scary is most of replies are supporting his decision and suggesting races he should switch to(probably why he posted there).
I would have thought Pros would know the best about relationship between trends and balance. Game balance will switch around even without blizzard's patching the game frequently because players discover new things and forming new trends.
Even if there were a game balance issue, this is just inappropriate for a pro, who probably has a mean of contacting blizzard's balance team directly or indirectly, publicly yearning for attention. I lost lot of respect for NexGenius.
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On November 21 2010 20:28 Highways wrote:
Don't wanna sound like a troll but I've been saying this since day1, Marauders are the biggest joke of a unit ever.
Unless you have enough forcefields or have a heavily larger army, marauders mean that your units cannot escape and you generally lose your whole army in 2 seconds if you accidentally engage.
Don't wanna sound like a troll but I've been saying this since day1, Collossus are the biggest joke of a unit ever.
Unless you have enough vikings or have a heavily larger army, collossus means that your units cannot deal damage and you generally lose your whole army in 2 seconds if you accidentally engage.
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On November 21 2010 20:39 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:25 Kyuki wrote:
This is so sad.. Can top players STOP CRYING IN THE OPEN. :<
We all rage and have our moments, but I mean it's pretty damn obvious Protoss is in a spot where Zerg was before the reaper/bunker and roach range upgrade. Toss is unforgiving (4-gate aside which is very uncommon at the very highest level because it's not that hard to stop) and can be abused quite hard by the other races, but there will appear better and more refined builds and that will even out the playing field eventually. Maybe there will also be a tiny buff who knows..
Anyway, I just fucking hate when they cry like this.. Well... This is his life. No, really, I mean this is his life. His career. It's what he does. He wants to make money from it. And that post obviously contained no whining. It was a really short post. Besides, if you thought you deserved to be top 4 in GSL based on skill but found yourself being knocked out earlier based on what you perceive to be imbalances, I would call you an idiot for not trying to argue your case.
Ofc it is, but the game is still soo bloody young. Zergs had the same problems, and suddenly they could adapt because they were hard pressed. I mean they've shown time and time again that it's possible to beat both terran and toss, and things will keep evolving. I feel that things right now are really unrefined and probably when we look back a couple of years from now, will consider the plays we see rather bad. (and we'll blame maps ^^).
I would call you an idiot if you look back at yourself and consider yourself to be a top4 contender and then blame your race for not succeeding. That will take you nowhere. I dont care who you are and how imbalanced the game actually is - that's not the point - if you have that attitude you wont go as far as those that suck it up and just find new ways.
That's my opinion atleast.
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Farking hell -.-
Genius is my favourite protoss player. I watch all of his replays for inspiration / entertainment.
I honestly hope he doesn't switch.
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For good or for ill, the perception is that only whines work on Blizzard.
Zerg didn't get buffs for a long time. Only until Dimage, FruitDealer, and Check whined publicly that they did.
Problem is, Blizzard seems to not intend to buff Protoss.
Take BW. Protoss is the weakest race, but they didn't whine (enough) for a change to be made.
Hence, this worrying trend continues. Unless Blizzard is more proactive rather than reactive, whine threads will become even more commonplace.
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Hey guys,
I'm considering switching to Toss, let's make a thread 
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I think the problem with Protoss is way too vague for Blizzard to really identify it yet. As I see it, its like they said on the SOTG podcast, its less forgiving and more "bare" than terran and zerg. So while the potential of Protoss is strong in the lategame, their weaknesses in the early to midgame are easier to exploit than zergs and terrans. Protoss has a harder time to stay alive if they get caught off guard compared to the other races.
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On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one.
I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public.
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On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public.
blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way.
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Protoss are strong in the Lategame , Weak Early game.
Terran are strongest at the Early and Midgame but melt away to Storms during the late games.
I say the matchups are balanced enough .
As i see it , protoss needs a slight buff , so please blizzard don"t nerf terran again.
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K we've had these topics for every race now. Excellent.
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EPT
