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On November 21 2010 21:46 Kurumi wrote:
Okay,so first Terran realised all-ins versus Zergs - they were dominant in both tournaments and ladder. Now,Terran got another ace upon their sleeves - all-ins versus Protoss - same thing as Zerg problem. Many Zerg players switched their races,same happening with Protoss right now. The question is:
Will it be easier to nerf Terran or to buff those two races without causing new imbalances?
I'm actually thinking that if stim or combat shield had a factory or a higher thing requirement like adrenal glands has. Because stim has too little cost for that effective upgrade and if you increase the cost, it would be too much. And stim is used in the WHOLE FUCKING GAME. SO IS THE COMBAT SHIELD. So, if we want macro games to be a more viable choice, let's do something like this:
Increase stim's and combat shield's (also concussive shell's) upgrade time by 20 or 30 seconds. And add factory as a requirement for all. What happens if we do something like this? Strats like stim timing rushes become less viable. But how will be the +20 minute long macro games of biomech effected? 20-30 seconds. What is 20-30 seconds compared to 1200 seconds? Nothing.
Anyway, particular example is particular and I don't know how good this idea is. It just came out of nowhere and I didn't even test it against protoss or terran or anything. It just came out. But, if we have one race which is good for allins, one race which is unbeatable in the late game and one race which has nothing but glass cannons, this sucks. Every race should have the same power in the all phases of the game. Macro games should be viable. But, good early strats should also kick the shit out of greedy eco heavy ones. Just like 5pool vs 14CC in Brood War.
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On November 21 2010 21:52 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 20:39 ParasitJonte wrote:On November 21 2010 20:25 Kyuki wrote:
This is so sad.. Can top players STOP CRYING IN THE OPEN. :<
We all rage and have our moments, but I mean it's pretty damn obvious Protoss is in a spot where Zerg was before the reaper/bunker and roach range upgrade. Toss is unforgiving (4-gate aside which is very uncommon at the very highest level because it's not that hard to stop) and can be abused quite hard by the other races, but there will appear better and more refined builds and that will even out the playing field eventually. Maybe there will also be a tiny buff who knows..
Anyway, I just fucking hate when they cry like this.. Well... This is his life. No, really, I mean this is his life. His career. It's what he does. He wants to make money from it. And that post obviously contained no whining. It was a really short post. Besides, if you thought you deserved to be top 4 in GSL based on skill but found yourself being knocked out earlier based on what you perceive to be imbalances, I would call you an idiot for not trying to argue your case. Ofc it is, but the game is still soo bloody young. Zergs had the same problems, and suddenly they could adapt because they were hard pressed. I mean they've shown time and time again that it's possible to beat both terran and toss, and things will keep evolving. I feel that things right now are really unrefined and probably when we look back a couple of years from now, will consider the plays we see rather bad. (and we'll blame maps ^^).
Maybe You're right - P should adapt. The problem is,adapt WHAT? Where Zerg dropped FE and evolved 1base muta/ 20-26 ish expand. What can P change? Their tech is both expensive and taking huge amount of time (HT+Storm for an example) and leaves P without actual army. FE vs T and other crazy plays can be denied very fast,FE vs Z is pretty bad right now thanks to Roach buff (not totally bad though,can still pull off) Also there's the biggest problem - "Templar tech or Robo tech?" Protoss isn't a Terran which can have one of every production building,neither Zerg changing tech freely. When they're doing something You know that they're COMMITTING to that.
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On November 21 2010 21:49 Gudeldar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:36 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins. This is pretty much why they do it. They learned by example. First the Zergs, and now Protoss is taking a page from their book. Whether it is balanced or not doesn't really matter at this point. You have Protoss missing from the top GSL spots, the players saying they will switch, their fans using these statements as proof to claim imbalance, and voila the problem is at Blizzards doorstep without anyone having any idea how this game will be played 2 years from now. Its hard to tell whether the problem is if Protoss is weak at the very top level or there just aren't very many very good Protoss players. I can count on one hand the number of Protoss I would give a chance of winning a GSL but there are a million Zergs and Terrans who have a chance of winning GSL. I'm not a top level player by any means but I agree with whoever said on SOTG that Protoss feels like it is very unforgiving of mistakes while Terran and Zerg are more forgiving of screw ups.
Assuming you are right and I personally dont think you are (I think there are many top Protoss players).
What would you say is the reason behind there being no top players?
Because the race doesnt suit top level players?
Because by some strange fluke of luck very few top players pick Protoss?
There is an imbalance in competition play?
The history of BW being that Terran and Zerg are the more successful races so better players flock to those?
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yeah this is pretty clearly an idle threat. not worthy to even talk about
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On November 21 2010 21:51 scion wrote:
From NexGenius's post, it does really seem like he wants attention. What's scary is most of replies are supporting his decision and suggesting races he should switch to(probably why he posted there).
I would have thought Pros would know the best about relationship between trends and balance. Game balance will switch around even without blizzard's patching the game frequently because players discover new things and forming new trends.
Even if there were a game balance issue, this is just inappropriate for a pro, who probably has a mean of contacting blizzard's balance team directly or indirectly, publicly yearning for attention. I lost lot of respect for NexGenius.
....
As a pro his job is to win tournaments, not to balance the game. If he feels his race is weaker he has the right to whine like he wants. Or should he wait until maybe in a few months he has a better chance?
Every pro is subjective and argues for the sake of his own race. And Blizzard knows that, so they listen to different Pros of every race to get a picture of the balance.
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Trying to make a living off of progaming is hard as it is without facing unfavorable imbalance. Gl genius!
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On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public. blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way.
I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it.
Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels...
I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out...
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On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely.
Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone.
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On November 21 2010 22:00 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:52 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 20:39 ParasitJonte wrote:On November 21 2010 20:25 Kyuki wrote:
This is so sad.. Can top players STOP CRYING IN THE OPEN. :<
We all rage and have our moments, but I mean it's pretty damn obvious Protoss is in a spot where Zerg was before the reaper/bunker and roach range upgrade. Toss is unforgiving (4-gate aside which is very uncommon at the very highest level because it's not that hard to stop) and can be abused quite hard by the other races, but there will appear better and more refined builds and that will even out the playing field eventually. Maybe there will also be a tiny buff who knows..
Anyway, I just fucking hate when they cry like this.. Well... This is his life. No, really, I mean this is his life. His career. It's what he does. He wants to make money from it. And that post obviously contained no whining. It was a really short post. Besides, if you thought you deserved to be top 4 in GSL based on skill but found yourself being knocked out earlier based on what you perceive to be imbalances, I would call you an idiot for not trying to argue your case. Ofc it is, but the game is still soo bloody young. Zergs had the same problems, and suddenly they could adapt because they were hard pressed. I mean they've shown time and time again that it's possible to beat both terran and toss, and things will keep evolving. I feel that things right now are really unrefined and probably when we look back a couple of years from now, will consider the plays we see rather bad. (and we'll blame maps ^^). Maybe You're right - P should adapt. The problem is,adapt WHAT? Where Zerg dropped FE and evolved 1base muta/ 20-26 ish expand. What can P change? Their tech is both expensive and taking huge amount of time (HT+Storm for an example) and leaves P without actual army. FE vs T and other crazy plays can be denied very fast,FE vs Z is pretty bad right now thanks to Roach buff (not totally bad though,can still pull off) Also there's the biggest problem - "Templar tech or Robo tech?" Protoss isn't a Terran which can have one of every production building,neither Zerg changing tech freely. When they're doing something You know that they're COMMITTING to that.
Do you think I have the answer to that? 
Ofc not, that's why pros are pros, they'll find ways. Eventually. Refine Refine Refine.
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There is no need to whine at all. If he wants to change race, then change race. If he wants to whine about balance, write Blizzard an E-mail.
This reminds me of American professional athletes who tweet about their drama and whine.
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On November 21 2010 22:10 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public. blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way. I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it. Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels... I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out...
I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft.
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On November 21 2010 20:19 Critical loss wrote:based on his post in playxp: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2354027&page=2In this post he said "I'm considering changing my race. Please recommend the race which seems to be more suitable for me" He thinks protoss is so underpowered that no one playing protoss can actually win the tournament like GSL.
so what?
let's see how many switched after they started crying
if i remember right not a single person and in this case wont be any different
just rnd crying to get a buff
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On November 21 2010 22:12 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:10 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public. blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way. I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it. Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels... I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out... I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft.
No? You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. I put in the same type of mentality in whatever I do and that makes me improve upon what I'm doing.
Why do people use this as a argument? "Buff me pls, so I can make moneEz!" Really? Grow up.
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Wasn't Genius saying last GSL that Protoss was actually strongest and people just need to learn to play?
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For what it's worth. i believe the Emperor himself has whined and threathened to change race as well. Did it multiple times in various interviews as well. But i guess he gets a free pass for all the good things he has done to Esports and deservedly so.
And i am sure that the pros know that balance are an evolving concept and as Nazgul pointed out, it will take years to really understand balance.
PROBLEM is, in that 2 years, there will be multiple GSLs with over 1 million USD in prize money.
When we look back 2 years from now, it is possible to say that every winners was deserving but it is more likely that after achieving better understanding , we will see that some players did get further than they belong due to race imbalance or even hindered by their races.
2 years from now we will say things like
"oh fruitdealer totally did not deserve that , zerg macro was so broken in 1.1" or
" i pity Tester because he got hard done by in 2010" or
" wow how did cool won GSL 1 when zerg was clearly underpowered in 1.1 or
"Tester sucks because Protoss was overpowered in 1.1 and 1.2 yet he failed to qualify twice"
Players obviously does not want to belong in the "in hindsight was the best player but did not win because of race" situation because of the financial and fame implications. Aside from the huge prize money, winning attracts sponsors and fans. The earlier the development of SC2, the more it makes sense for the pros to try attract balance in their favour because the simplest of changes can alter a whole lot of matchups.
I am not trying to justify the whinings but I do understand why they do it.
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On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins.
But that's just it i mean they are using race changing threats to scare blizzard into buffing protoss wether or not they need a buff or not. If blizzard can be scared into making balance changes based on top players threats of changing races then this game will never get perfectly balanced.
If they want to help Protoss balance they should keep playing their race to the best of their ability and consistent loss to something imbalanced will lead to nerfs/buffs but being a whiny bitch and changing races isn't going to help at all.
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On November 21 2010 22:14 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:12 Woony wrote:On November 21 2010 22:10 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public. blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way. I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it. Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels... I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out... I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft. No? You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. I put in the same type of mentality in whatever I do and that makes me improve upon what I'm doing. Why do people use this as a argument? "Buff me pls, so I can make moneEz!" Really? Grow up.
Maybe not you, but most human beings would get an advantage if they can. It's not like he is killing people for it.
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On November 21 2010 22:15 dtz wrote:
For what it's worth. i believe the Emperor himself has whined and threathened to change race as well. Did it multiple times in various interviews as well. But i guess he gets a free pass for all the good things he has done to Esports and deservedly so.
And i am sure that the pros know that balance are an evolving concept and as Nazgul pointed out, it will take years to really understand balance.
PROBLEM is, in that 2 years, there will be multiple GSLs with over 1 million USD in prize money.
When we look back 2 years from now, it is possible to say that every winners was deserving but it is more likely that after achieving better understanding , we will see that some players did get further than they belong due to race imbalance or even hindered by their races.
2 years from now we will say things like
"oh fruitdealer totally did not deserve that , zerg macro was so broken in 1.1" or
" i pity Tester because he got hard done by in 2010" or
" wow how did cool won GSL 1 when zerg was clearly underpowered in 1.1 or
"Tester sucks because Protoss was overpowered in 1.1 and 1.2 yet he failed to qualify twice"
Players obviously does not want to belong in the "in hindsight was the best player but did not win because of race" situation because of the financial and fame implications. Aside from the huge prize money, winning attracts sponsors and fans. The earlier the development of SC2, the more it makes sense for the pros to try attract balance in their favour because the simplest of changes can alter a whole lot of matchups.
I am not trying to justify the whinings but I do understand why they do it.
I like this post and agree mostly.
I said the same things I said in BoxeRs thread though He dont get no freepass from me, but on second thoughts he did say in a interview with Artosis in GSL that he's just a Terran crybaby (basically). Check the interview, just made me smile. 
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On November 21 2010 22:16 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins. But that's just it i mean they are using race changing threats to scare blizzard into buffing protoss wether or not they need a buff or not. If blizzard can be scared into making balance changes based on top players threats of changing races then this game will never get perfectly balanced. If they want to help Protoss balance they should keep playing their race to the best of their ability and consistent loss to something imbalanced will lead to nerfs/buffs but being a whiny bitch and changing races isn't going to help at all.
This is exactly what people said when Zerg players started threatening to switch races. We know how that turned out don't we?
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Probably him just blowing off a bit of steam. If by some crazy thing he does change, the gsl needs more Random!
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EPT
