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On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true" Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely. Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone. If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality. People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player?
For me "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" = "Terran OP". Same as complaining.
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On November 21 2010 22:48 clockwork. wrote:
you're all missing the most important thing: we can pick his race
~the people's progamer~
i vote random!
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On November 21 2010 21:54 cascades wrote:
For good or for ill, the perception is that only whines work on Blizzard.
Zerg didn't get buffs for a long time. Only until Dimage, FruitDealer, and Check whined publicly that they did.
Problem is, Blizzard seems to not intend to buff Protoss.
Take BW. Protoss is the weakest race, but they didn't whine (enough) for a change to be made.
Hence, this worrying trend continues. Unless Blizzard is more proactive rather than reactive, whine threads will become even more commonplace.
Proactive? Reactive?
The game has only been out for 4 months! What do you want, weekly patches like the beta? Where the game is fundamentally changing constantly? Where nobody gets to really let strategy develop, interact, mutate, and evolve over time?
What Blizzard has been is thoughtful and measured in their patches. They aren't quick to accept the conventional wisdom. They aren't just going to assume that, because some people complain, there is a problem that requires immediate action.
And no; Blizzard did not buff the Zerg because a few progamers whined about it. Those changes were already in process when the progamers got into it.
On November 21 2010 22:12 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:10 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.
It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit. Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me. Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans. Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else. This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!" whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't? Fill me in on this one. I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public. blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way. I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it. Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels... I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out... I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft.
Certainly. So maybe it's not a good idea to try to make a career off of a 4 month old game that still has 2 expansions to come and will have innumerable balance patches made for it.
People keep trying to make StarCraft II grow up much faster than SC1 had to. It's not going to happen. If you're going to be a pro-gamer in the early days of SC2, you're going to have to accept that the game will have these kinds of things.
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On November 21 2010 22:54 NicolBolas wrote:
Certainly. So maybe it's not a good idea to try to make a career off of a 4 month old game that still has 2 expansions to come and will have innumerable balance patches made for it.
People keep trying to make StarCraft II grow up much faster than SC1 had to. It's not going to happen. If you're going to be a pro-gamer in the early days of SC2, you're going to have to accept that the game will have these kinds of things.
So you suggest that people don't play pro SC2 because it's not got its expansions out yet? So we should wait like 5 - 6 - 7 more years?
How is he trying to make SC2 grow up fast? Is there a single second of logical thought whilst you were typing this? I'm pretty sure he accepts that toss currently has its limitations, hence why he's thinking of changing. He's not even posting saing FUUUU CHANGE THIS.
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On November 21 2010 22:38 Tone_ wrote:
Okay let's think about it with a small amount of logic from start to finish.
If you play a game professionally and are good at it but consistently get under-par results then I'd imagine it does get frustrating. This may cause you to put the occasional rant on a forum or something (Fruitdealer, Boxer). These are some of the highest level players so until you are at their level I don't see how people can compare their own, or any other "whiners" situations to theirs.
Secondly he is posting a fairly calm, question based post within his own community. Nazgul and othe mods, tbh if it pisses you off then why do you have this stuff on the forums. Did he come to TL and post it? No. So what's happening is we're taking something that wasn't even posted to TL, and bitching about how he's shoving his complaining down our throats?
</logic>
The most intelligent post i've seen in this thread. Looking at the playxp discussion, no one there is arguing about it at all, they just vote off the race they want and yet here, we have a bunch of arguments about nothing which could possibly be something but no proof that it is. Nazgul and other people are ranting about how genius is complaining about the balance issue yet if you go to the original source, it was just presented as a simple question and genius did not even spread the word beyond playxp, just some TL bystander who happened to see his post and posted it here, instigating useless arguments that have no proof.
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damn, i´m so excited for monday! cant wait for the results.
the problem is, no one knows, what the current problem with protoss really is. pvz right now is a mess of cheesing and experimenting (which is good) and pvt didnt change since beta aside from some buildordertweaks in the terrans favor. is the problem pvt? some say yes, some say no, screaming imbalances no, bad feeling playing the matchup, hell yes.
is pvz imbalanced? same story, some toss do fairly well, others just get destroyed. you cant just buff gateway units. its a dilemma at least in my eyes, and everyone who claims that everythings so easy and that the problem is obvious (marauder,roach) is just dumb imo.
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People keep trying to make StarCraft II grow up much faster than SC1 had to. It's not going to happen. If you're going to be a pro-gamer in the early days of SC2, you're going to have to accept that the game will have these kinds of things.
It's already happening. The community is HUGE in comparison and so well connected. Word and strategies spread quickly and the pro scene is already taking off. Blizzard is investing much more money in this game than they did the original.
It not only can grow up faster. It has to grow up faster.
However, people always come with stupid suggestions that are obviously not well thought out. And of course, if we're discussing pro level play then it makes sense that we should listen to what progamers have to say.
I would love if tester, sangho, inca and genius produced a wall of text of how they perceive each match up. But of course, if they did, there would be a huge outcry that they were "whining", even if they only posted their true, honest thoughts about the game.
That's sad ;o.
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So we've now come full circle. Terran UP, Zerg UP, and now Protoss UP. Woooh!
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Ha, Im sure blizz will buff protoss to let them have their GSL.... tbh I feared there would be fotm patches/races for a very long time in sc2 because honestly from Blizzards pov I dont see any incentive to truly try and perfectly balance out the game. If you got the game balanced, strategies and top players will kind of stagnate or at least evolve at a much slower rate. With small balance changes every now and then you keep the evolution of strategies and different top players of different races artificially much higher, which makes it much easier to hype sc2 esports...
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On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely. Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone.
I looked at what I wrote and I didn't say anything about if it's really a better statement or not. But I think it is. IdrA not changing his race once Zerg was OP makes him a person with self respect, only the way he expresses this fact is controversial.
But now, Protoss is the underdog, and I see one of the most influential Protoss progamer switching his race like the scrubs in the ladder. I saw better "Fuck this I'm switching races" threads/blogs in TL. IdrA's statemets about Terran is as controversial as Genius himself but this is what you call self respect? Do you see Genius as a man with self-respect now?
And you know what, I've been playing Zerg since I started playing (that's 1.03 patch, the real Zerg Underpowered patch, and I knew that Zerg was underpowered when I chose my race) and I am a real fan of IdrA. Not because he hates cheese, he BMs or any funky stuff like that (I like IdrA BM and his view on cheese btw.); it's because he has self respect and the guts to stand against all odds. He makes one clear statement even at the times when zerg was a joke in his opinion: I play zerg and I won't switch.
On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true" Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely. Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone. If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality. People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player?
I didn't imply but I definitely think like that and thanks for explaining my view.
On November 21 2010 22:53 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true" On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely. Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone. If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality. People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player? For me "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" = "Terran OP". Same as complaining.
Yeah, but it's a better one than "I'll switch if toss isn't fixed".
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Wow I didn't see this coming, Genius was saying that Protoss was the strongest last GSL. Protoss pro's never really voiced their opinion on balance but I think we'll be hearing more about this.
The QQ has been as high for P the last few weeks as it was for Z and it will probably skyrocket even more when the GSL starts again and the remaining Protoss start dropping like flies.
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There is nothing wrong with protoss.
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On November 21 2010 22:53 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true" On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely. Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone. If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality. People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player? For me "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" = "Terran OP". Same as complaining.
Yes, its the same as complaining, but thats not what the race changers are doing. Race changers are taking it to Emo level by threatening to change their race. Lets put it this way. Everyone complains about their life sucking at some point, but Emos are the ones cutting their wrists while doing it. Idra mighta been complaining, but he wasnt threatening to take action over it.
Genius might genuinely be thinking of changing races, know one except he can know for sure until he does or announces he wont. But given the fact that the only progamer I can think of off the top of my head who switched races were TLO and MorroW, and NEITHER of them were whining or threatening the race change beforehand. The others just went, "sike! im still gonna be *race*  " after sufficient attention and cries for mercy were given to them. Theyre like kids threatening to run away from home when they dont like something. Again, its pathetic.
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Such a cheap (and stupid) method to get buffs they don't need to. If zerg did this, that doesn't mean Blizzard will fall for it again.
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I think the best response to have towards these announcement is to say: " who cares?"
A) because I really don't care, especially when the threat is so empty.
B) if you have a 10 page thread on TL about it you're only going to give his whine more credibility...and if you don't interpret his announcement as a public comment about balance then...you're being silly poo head.
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On November 21 2010 23:05 KevinIX wrote:
So we've now come full circle. Terran UP, Zerg UP, and now Protoss UP. Woooh!
the sad thing is, terran never really was up. they just needed time to figure it out. and thats what people want protoss players to do. but honestly it wont happen.
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Another reason why I dislike these threads is that Genius probably won't switch race at all. Next time a pro wants to blow off steam and exaggerate about imbalance, do it without saying "I'll switch race if Blizzard doesn't do something.". Otherwise, it spawns these types of threads which ultimately ends in yet another balance discussion.
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On November 21 2010 23:17 Fantistic wrote:
Another reason why I dislike these threads is that Genius probably won't switch race at all. Next time a pro wants to blow off steam and exaggerate about imbalance, do it without saying "I'll switch race if Blizzard doesn't do something.". Otherwise, it spawns these types of threads which ultimately ends in yet another balance discussion.
well, the first one was dimaga alongside with fruitdealer, latter won the first gsl. the next one was foxer, i think, he got 2nd in 2nd gsl and now genius wants to change.... maybe it helps!
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This is a very new game, how old is SC? I think its very silly how everyone gives these players so much shit for wanting to try new races. If this game played exactly like BW it would be more valid to call people out on the race switching but for now people wanting to find the race that fits their style best is a good thing, imb aside, if players produce better games its better for every one.
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Everybody threatening to change race all the time...
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EPT
