Genius is considering changing the race

On November 21 2010 20:21 Silidons wrote:
fuck me sideways man wtf

On November 21 2010 20:23 Sewi wrote:
So Blizzard has to make a decison.

Nerf Terran -> Boxer wants to switch
Nerf Toss (Or dont make them stronger) -> Genius wants to switch

But btw, Any more infos on this? Did he say something about specific units or matchups?
Everyone knows that atm it is impossible for any Toss to win GSL so I wonder if there was some more specific talk?!

On November 21 2010 20:24 lol12tree wrote:
Well sSKS has already been saying that TvP all-in timing pushes are over powered in one of the playxp interviews during his fail to qualify in GSL2 (not 3). I have no definitive source on this so don't quote me.

What we do know is that sSKS won the TSL Clan Tournament defeating SangHo in the finals.
TesteR changed his race to Terran to TvP SangHo and won.

I would like to see a Terran change to protoss to PvT a high level Terran.

On November 21 2010 20:26 bokeevboke wrote:


Thats pretty strong argument if he beats own race by offracing.

On November 11 2010 23:19 adrift wrote:


Tester > Rain
Cool > Eternal
Clide > Revival
Sangho > Smart

Tester > Cool
Sangho > Clide

Tester v Sangho now

pretty cool how they have the players casting their teammates. FD casting for tester v sangho

On November 11 2010 23:38 Blitzmarine wrote:
Here is rough translation of thier last chating;

Tester : Oh yeah, Terran imba.

Sangho : Yes, it really is.

On November 21 2010 20:28 Highways wrote:
Don't wanna sound like a troll but I've been saying this since day1, Marauders are the biggest joke of a unit ever.

Unless you have enough forcefields or have a heavily larger army, marauders mean that your units cannot escape and you generally lose your whole army in 2 seconds if you accidentally engage.

On November 21 2010 20:26 Gotmog wrote:

AND
Nerf Zerg ->Fruitdealer, Idra and dimaga want to switch (and TLO chose T i guess)

On November 21 2010 20:30 Panoptic wrote:
I don't know about you guys but I'm getting kind of tired of big-name players constantly threatening to switch. It seems...just...a bit pathetic. I know a lot of players make their living from this game, so balance is more important to them than anyone. It's just that it fuels the masses into going: "see! my race is UP QQ" etc etc. It harms the community and adds unnecessary fuel to the fire. And whilst toss might very well be UP, I can't help but be cynical about their motives for making these announcements.

If you're planning on switching, why not just keep quiet about it?

On November 21 2010 20:25 Kyuki wrote:
This is so sad.. Can top players STOP CRYING IN THE OPEN. :<

We all rage and have our moments, but I mean it's pretty damn obvious Protoss is in a spot where Zerg was before the reaper/bunker and roach range upgrade. Toss is unforgiving (4-gate aside which is very uncommon at the very highest level because it's not that hard to stop) and can be abused quite hard by the other races, but there will appear better and more refined builds and that will even out the playing field eventually. Maybe there will also be a tiny buff who knows..

Anyway, I just fucking hate when they cry like this..

On November 21 2010 20:25 Kyuki wrote:
This is so sad.. Can top players STOP CRYING IN THE OPEN. :<

We all rage and have our moments, but I mean it's pretty damn obvious Protoss is in a spot where Zerg was before the reaper/bunker and roach range upgrade. Toss is unforgiving (4-gate aside which is very uncommon at the very highest level because it's not that hard to stop) and can be abused quite hard by the other races, but there will appear better and more refined builds and that will even out the playing field eventually. Maybe there will also be a tiny buff who knows..

Anyway, I just fucking hate when they cry like this..

On November 21 2010 20:37 Licmyobelisk wrote:
See this guy, saying that protoss was the strongest race in GSL 2 then after being defeated time for me to switch race... what a champ..

On November 21 2010 20:32 Tropics wrote:
pretty funny considering a month or two ago he said protoss was the strongest race

pretty sure that was post roach range buff too

On November 21 2010 20:33 lol12tree wrote:

huh? its not like they are running around saying, MY RACE IS UP, IMA CHANGE !!!!

No. Its Genius that wants to change and asking fans which would they rather him change to. HE HAS ALREADY MADE UP HIS MIND TO CHANGE HIS RACE.

That is very different than Genius asking "should I change race?"

On November 21 2010 20:40 Saechiis wrote:
Funny that Terran still gets the blame for imbalance when it has been receiving nothing but nerfs since TvP was considered the most balanced MU. When you look at GSL percentages it's Zergs taking places from Toss, not Terran.

On November 21 2010 20:39 lol12tree wrote:

source?

On November 21 2010 20:43 frucisky wrote:
...Faster warp gate research...

On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.

On November 21 2010 20:19 Critical loss wrote:
based on his post in playxp: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2354027&page=2

In this post he said "I'm considering changing my race. Please recommend the race which

seems to be more suitable for me"

He thinks protoss is so underpowered that no one playing protoss can actually win the

tournament like GSL.

On November 21 2010 20:47 Fantistic wrote:
Getting bored of reading about top players planning to switch races unless Blizzard does something. Now we'll have Protoss underpowered threads for a week.

On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.

It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit.

On November 21 2010 20:49 dtz wrote:
I don't think they like to whine themselves. It is just that they think (and with good reason) that whining and threathening to change do accelerate Blizzard's patches.

Look what happened after Cool whined. This combined with the fact that it is public knowledge that CheckPrime is in constant contact with David Kim and has been sending Blizzard "whine e-mails" lead to patches that significantly buffed zerg. Without those 2 patches, GSL 1 ,2,and 3 might have different winners. The "whining" was so succesful that Check said he received a lot of flame for that and said that he'll shut up for now.

But considering the potential financial reward and how compeititive future GSLs will be, this is the best time to get wins becaus it is gonna get harder for everyone. I think it makes complete sense to whine to get a buff especially with the dwindling Protoss number and the real possibility of not having any P in ro4 for the third time in a row.

On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:

Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me.

Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans.

On November 21 2010 20:51 dtz wrote:


The OP translation says he is considering changing his race. So that means he has not decided yet. Unless you have a more accurate translation in which case ignore this.

On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:

Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me.

Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans.

On November 21 2010 20:49 Firebolt145 wrote:

Regarding the part you quoted, is that ALL he said? Because if it is, he isn't really whining, but just asking for the public's opinion.

If he did actually complain etc, could you translate what he said?

On November 21 2010 20:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:

Obviously he isn't going to ever let your opinion influence whichever race he will switch to (which I highly doubt he will do). He is going to play Protoss in the foreseeable future and is not going to switch at all. It's just another way of getting peoples attention and sadly enough it's working.

On November 21 2010 20:50 lol12tree wrote:

Again not to be a prick but if you actually read more clearly; Genius says that he is asking the fans which race to change to, he is not threating to change his race. I repeat, he is NOT threatening to change his race. He has already decided to give up on protoss he is asking the fans which way they want him to go. That sounds very reasonable to me.

Sure people can turn this into a whine party but is that genius responsibility? Heck genius is not even asking us (presumably) hes asking his korean fans.

On November 21 2010 20:50 Lawdy wrote:

It's not like we didn't have them for weeks or anything.

On November 21 2010 20:58 Supamang wrote:

Sorry man, but I think thats a stupid notion. Genius is a pro player, far better than any of his fans. He would know the nuances of the races much better than any of us, so he wouldnt need any input from his fans. Furthermore, most of his fans would follow him because they like Protoss. Of course they would prefer that hed stay as Protoss above anything else.

This sounds like he wants to make the threat but is trying to be sneaky about it, like "No im not an attention whore! Im just asking for input!"

On November 21 2010 20:54 speedphlux wrote:
Well, if I'm correct, every single patch since the BETA, either was nerfing Protoss or didn't do anything with them.
Yeah, sure you can call the new level 1 Void Ray attack buffed, but Protoss air is still ... nowhere. Phoenixes have SOME use, Void Rays have SOME use, but that's it. There comes a time in each game in which your Terran or Zerg opponent have Vikings (or Thors, or BOTH) or Corruptors (or Infestors, or BOTH) and pretty much your whole air becomes nullified. In general, Protoss Air is only good as SURPRISE tactic. Nuff said ?
Same goes with Robo units - "Hey, I've got me a crittical mass of Collossi ! Ops - Tanks, Burrowing Roaches, Vikings, Corruptors, Infestors, Bane-drops, EMP, Stimmed Maroders and so on, comes your way.". Or "Hey, Double-Robo Immortals IS DA SHIT ! Ops, Zerglings, Marines, EMP, Thors and Hydras ... And you're dead.".
Even if you look back at BETA/Release times, when TLO was still playing Random, he sucked as Protoss, because he didn't had much options. Everything Protoss does gets countered from the other races, not by specific builds, but by playing straight up normal tech path. While the opposite isn't true. Zerg makes Mutas - shit, I better get cannons in my mineral lines and few Stalkers here and there. Terran goes bio-ball timing attack - shit, I don't have enough Sentries, Collossi, Templars. No wonder people want to change away from Protoss.

On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:

whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't?
Fill me in on this one.

On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:
whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't?
Fill me in on this one.

On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.

It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit.

The worst thing of it all may just be that people actually logon to TL and use the opinion of these players to support their balance whines, even though it's pretty damn obvious none of these players actually have a clue about balance and just want their own race to be better.

In a way I'm glad it's a Protoss doing it now because now if I yell at him I won't be attacked by angry Zerg and Terran players saying that it isn't my race that is underpowered.

On November 21 2010 21:06 Ramble wrote:
Nazgul while you are here, mind if shoot you a rather OT question? Will we see you in any future tournaments at all? I liked your play at MLG Dallas.

On November 21 2010 21:06 Ramble wrote:
Nazgul while you are here, mind if shoot you a rather OT question? Will we see you in any future tournaments at all? I liked your play at MLG Dallas.

On November 21 2010 20:33 lol12tree wrote:

huh? its not like they are running around saying, MY RACE IS UP, IMA CHANGE !!!!

No. Its Genius that wants to change and asking fans which would they rather him change to. HE HAS ALREADY MADE UP HIS MIND TO CHANGE HIS RACE.

That is very different than Genius asking "should I change race?"

On November 21 2010 21:01 gnutz wrote:
If you come from Wc3/WoW you know that whining is a constant factor in playing Blizzards games. It comes down naturally to the fact that Blizzard decided to patch the game. It's obvious that all players, especially progamers want to make their race easier, but sometimes they are right imo.

At Pros complaining about whining pros? what do you think of early game TvP? (the reason the most protoss are complaining). Sometimes it looks like the 5rax reaper opening in TvZ if terran plays banshee/raven. (It looks like it, dont know how it is in reality on pro level)

On November 21 2010 20:54 speedphlux wrote:
Well, if I'm correct, every single patch since the BETA, either was nerfing Protoss or didn't do anything with them.
Yeah, sure you can call the new level 1 Void Ray attack buffed, but Protoss air is still ... nowhere. Phoenixes have SOME use, Void Rays have SOME use, but that's it. There comes a time in each game in which your Terran or Zerg opponent have Vikings (or Thors, or BOTH) or Corruptors (or Infestors, or BOTH) and pretty much your whole air becomes nullified. In general, Protoss Air is only good as SURPRISE tactic. Nuff said ?
Same goes with Robo units - "Hey, I've got me a crittical mass of Collossi ! Ops - Tanks, Burrowing Roaches, Vikings, Corruptors, Infestors, Bane-drops, EMP, Stimmed Maroders and so on, comes your way.". Or "Hey, Double-Robo Immortals IS DA SHIT ! Ops, Zerglings, Marines, EMP, Thors and Hydras ... And you're dead.".
Even if you look back at BETA/Release times, when TLO was still playing Random, he sucked as Protoss, because he didn't had much options. Everything Protoss does gets countered from the other races, not by specific builds, but by playing straight up normal tech path. While the opposite isn't true. Zerg makes Mutas - shit, I better get cannons in my mineral lines and few Stalkers here and there. Terran goes bio-ball timing attack - shit, I don't have enough Sentries, Collossi, Templars. No wonder people want to change away from Protoss.

On November 21 2010 21:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
What Dimaga (and Fruitdealer) did was not cool either. It's not that Fruitdealer/Dimaga have more credibility but just the fact that these statements keep piling up and at one point people catch on to the bs that they are.

These guys are all amazing players and they don't need this at all.

NexGenius is free to switch, and he is free to share his thoughts, but I don't really understand why people feel such a need to bitch about it. It's not like you get 1 free race-switch; you can switch whenever you want.

On November 21 2010 21:03 goldenwitch wrote:
It sucks being P because all of our whiners were terribly patient. Because the other races whiners weren't so patient, everyone is fed up with whining. By the time toss players got fed up with playing the underpowered race, there were no ears that are willing to hear the true need that toss has for rebalancing.

On that note, is he allowed to change his race in between prelim and ro64? or does he mean after GSL is done.

On November 21 2010 21:00 ParasitJonte wrote:

Protosses aren't that underpowered... No stats or data anywhere would begin to even remotely suggest that.

On November 21 2010 20:26 bokeevboke wrote:


Thats pretty strong argument if he beats own race by offracing.

On topic: Terrans suits Genius better

On November 21 2010 21:21 maidu wrote:
Interesting how things change in a few weeks, in GSL 2 when Artosis was interviewing him, he said that he thinks Protoss is the strongest race.

On November 21 2010 21:22 TheAntZ wrote:


at this moment, terran suits everyone better. It seems to me that people havent figured out how to abuse zerg properly yet and get closer to its higher skill ceiling, whereas terran is getting more mapped out, so it seems at the moment that terran is far more...fluid? of a race. It allows variety moreso then the other races, which I think is the key point to why Z and P whine about it so much

On November 21 2010 21:13 andrewwiggin wrote:
Amazing enough that maybe they know the game and the matchups a little more than you?

If they think there's an imbalance, then that's their opinion. If they want to change their race, and want other people to discuss it, then why not?

If progamers aren't allowed to generate discussions about balance, who is?

On November 21 2010 21:13 andrewwiggin wrote:


Amazing enough that maybe they know the game and the matchups a little more than you?

If they think there's an imbalance, then that's their opinion. If they want to change their race, and want other people to discuss it, then why not?

If progamers aren't allowed to generate discussions about balance, who is?

On November 21 2010 21:12 ace246 wrote:


imba whining pretty much derived from wc3 community and that whining phenomenon has been infected to the sc2 community. I don't recall imba whining during the BW era.

On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins.

On November 21 2010 21:36 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:

This is pretty much why they do it. They learned by example. First the Zergs, and now Protoss is taking a page from their book. Whether it is balanced or not doesn't really matter at this point. You have Protoss missing from the top GSL spots, the players saying they will switch, their fans using these statements as proof to claim imbalance, and voila the problem is at Blizzards doorstep without anyone having any idea how this game will be played 2 years from now.

On November 21 2010 20:28 Highways wrote:
Don't wanna sound like a troll but I've been saying this since day1, Marauders are the biggest joke of a unit ever.

Unless you have enough forcefields or have a heavily larger army, marauders mean that your units cannot escape and you generally lose your whole army in 2 seconds if you accidentally engage.

On November 21 2010 20:39 ParasitJonte wrote:


Well... This is his life. No, really, I mean this is his life. His career. It's what he does. He wants to make money from it. And that post obviously contained no whining. It was a really short post.

Besides, if you thought you deserved to be top 4 in GSL based on skill but found yourself being knocked out earlier based on what you perceive to be imbalances, I would call you an idiot for not trying to argue your case.

On November 21 2010 21:00 lol12tree wrote:

whats up with this biasism, when dimaga voiced his concern and change from Z to possibly T , people took him seriously, so why not genius? Does Dimaga have some sort of special credit behind him that genius doesn't?
Fill me in on this one.

On November 21 2010 21:56 Kyuki wrote:


I said the exact same things in Dimagas and Fruitdealers posts. It's imo disgusting and childish behaviour to cry out like this to the public.

On November 21 2010 21:46 Kurumi wrote:
Okay,so first Terran realised all-ins versus Zergs - they were dominant in both tournaments and ladder. Now,Terran got another ace upon their sleeves - all-ins versus Protoss - same thing as Zerg problem. Many Zerg players switched their races,same happening with Protoss right now. The question is:
Will it be easier to nerf Terran or to buff those two races without causing new imbalances?

On November 21 2010 21:52 Kyuki wrote:


Ofc it is, but the game is still soo bloody young. Zergs had the same problems, and suddenly they could adapt because they were hard pressed. I mean they've shown time and time again that it's possible to beat both terran and toss, and things will keep evolving. I feel that things right now are really unrefined and probably when we look back a couple of years from now, will consider the plays we see rather bad. (and we'll blame maps ^^).

On November 21 2010 21:49 Gudeldar wrote:


Its hard to tell whether the problem is if Protoss is weak at the very top level or there just aren't very many very good Protoss players. I can count on one hand the number of Protoss I would give a chance of winning a GSL but there are a million Zergs and Terrans who have a chance of winning GSL. I'm not a top level player by any means but I agree with whoever said on SOTG that Protoss feels like it is very unforgiving of mistakes while Terran and Zerg are more forgiving of screw ups.

On November 21 2010 21:51 scion wrote:
From NexGenius's post, it does really seem like he wants attention. What's scary is most of replies are supporting his decision and suggesting races he should switch to(probably why he posted there).

I would have thought Pros would know the best about relationship between trends and balance. Game balance will switch around even without blizzard's patching the game frequently because players discover new things and forming new trends.

Even if there were a game balance issue, this is just inappropriate for a pro, who probably has a mean of contacting blizzard's balance team directly or indirectly, publicly yearning for attention. I lost lot of respect for NexGenius.

On November 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote:

blizzard watches public opinion and the public is retarded, if you feel somethings unfair its only logical to try and swing public opinion your way.

On November 21 2010 21:46 Metalwing wrote:
IdrA always had talks about balance. But instead of saying "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", he said "I don't play Terran because I have self respect". I'd expect the same from the Protoss players. But they just don't care. They just QQ like the little kids do. Terran suits Genius better. He should play Terran definitely.

On November 21 2010 22:00 Kurumi wrote:


Maybe You're right - P should adapt. The problem is,adapt WHAT? Where Zerg dropped FE and evolved 1base muta/ 20-26 ish expand. What can P change? Their tech is both expensive and taking huge amount of time (HT+Storm for an example) and leaves P without actual army. FE vs T and other crazy plays can be denied very fast,FE vs Z is pretty bad right now thanks to Roach buff (not totally bad though,can still pull off) Also there's the biggest problem - "Templar tech or Robo tech?" Protoss isn't a Terran which can have one of every production building,neither Zerg changing tech freely. When they're doing something You know that they're COMMITTING to that.

On November 21 2010 22:10 Kyuki wrote:

I agree it's logical, it does not make it more honerable to be crying, or whatever you wanna call it.
Even though blizzard listens, they have shown several times with different patches that they do quite the oposite of what the crowd thinks is needed, and somehow that have made players change up their play and adapt to something that they did not think would work. So regardless of what people say about them I think they have more clue than most. Blizzard seriously deserve some cred even though they can't make fucking chatchannels...

I mean is there no pride? Whine and cry by all means, but really, do it privately and then look back at your game and try harder? Everything is not figured out...

On November 21 2010 20:19 Critical loss wrote:
based on his post in playxp: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2354027&page=2

In this post he said "I'm considering changing my race. Please recommend the race which

seems to be more suitable for me"

He thinks protoss is so underpowered that no one playing protoss can actually win the

tournament like GSL.

On November 21 2010 22:12 Woony wrote:


I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft.

On November 21 2010 21:31 Gudeldar wrote:
I think all the non-Protoss players will have to acknowledge there is a problem now when one of the very few top Protoss players is considering switching. And if the post about Inca and Tester considering switching is true then even Blizzard won't be able to ignore it and focus on something other than ladder wins.

On November 21 2010 22:14 Kyuki wrote:

No? You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. I put in the same type of mentality in whatever I do and that makes me improve upon what I'm doing.

Why do people use this as a argument? "Buff me pls, so I can make moneEz!" Really? Grow up.

On November 21 2010 22:15 dtz wrote:
For what it's worth. i believe the Emperor himself has whined and threathened to change race as well. Did it multiple times in various interviews as well. But i guess he gets a free pass for all the good things he has done to Esports and deservedly so.

And i am sure that the pros know that balance are an evolving concept and as Nazgul pointed out, it will take years to really understand balance.

PROBLEM is, in that 2 years, there will be multiple GSLs with over 1 million USD in prize money.

When we look back 2 years from now, it is possible to say that every winners was deserving but it is more likely that after achieving better understanding , we will see that some players did get further than they belong due to race imbalance or even hindered by their races.

2 years from now we will say things like
"oh fruitdealer totally did not deserve that , zerg macro was so broken in 1.1" or
" i pity Tester because he got hard done by in 2010" or
" wow how did cool won GSL 1 when zerg was clearly underpowered in 1.1 or
"Tester sucks because Protoss was overpowered in 1.1 and 1.2 yet he failed to qualify twice"

Players obviously does not want to belong in the "in hindsight was the best player but did not win because of race" situation because of the financial and fame implications. Aside from the huge prize money, winning attracts sponsors and fans. The earlier the development of SC2, the more it makes sense for the pros to try attract balance in their favour because the simplest of changes can alter a whole lot of matchups.

I am not trying to justify the whinings but I do understand why they do it.

On November 21 2010 22:16 Raiznhell wrote:


But that's just it i mean they are using race changing threats to scare blizzard into buffing protoss wether or not they need a buff or not. If blizzard can be scared into making balance changes based on top players threats of changing races then this game will never get perfectly balanced.

If they want to help Protoss balance they should keep playing their race to the best of their ability and consistent loss to something imbalanced will lead to nerfs/buffs but being a whiny bitch and changing races isn't going to help at all.

On November 21 2010 22:17 Woony wrote:


Maybe not you, but most human beings would get an advantage if they can. It's not like he is killing people for it.

On November 21 2010 22:16 Raiznhell wrote:


But that's just it i mean they are using race changing threats to scare blizzard into buffing protoss wether or not they need a buff or not. If blizzard can be scared into making balance changes based on top players threats of changing races then this game will never get perfectly balanced.

If they want to help Protoss balance they should keep playing their race to the best of their ability and consistent loss to something imbalanced will lead to nerfs/buffs but being a whiny bitch and changing races isn't going to help at all.

On November 21 2010 22:26 Tachion wrote:
So what is it that separates ladder results from tournament results? I hate to make this comparison, but P is leading the pack in most of their T and Z matchups across the globe according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169358.

P does seem to be struggling in korea in PvZ, though I'm not entirely convinced yet that it's a balance issue. Most of the Z's are being aggressive over there with roach/ling and mutas which are fairly new strategies and could use a little more time to be ironed out.
Against T though, P seems to be doing quite well, and T seems to be the main focus of Protoss complaints. So back to my original question. What is it that pros are doing compared to diamond ladder players to turn a Protoss favored matchup, into an imbalance fest?

On November 21 2010 22:26 Tachion wrote:
So what is it that separates ladder results from tournament results? I hate to make this comparison, but P is leading the pack in most of their T and Z matchups across the globe according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169358.

P does seem to be struggling in korea in PvZ, though I'm not entirely convinced yet that it's a balance issue. Most of the Z's are being aggressive over there with roach/ling and mutas which are fairly new strategies and could use a little more time to be ironed out.
Against T though, P seems to be doing quite well, and T seems to be the main focus of Protoss complaints. So back to my original question. What is it that pros are doing compared to diamond ladder players to turn a Protoss favored matchup, into an imbalance fest?

On November 21 2010 22:32 Ramble wrote:


The only thing Blizzard should read from ladder data is that their ladder matchmaker is good at putting people of equal skill together.

On November 21 2010 20:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Getting tired of these people threatening to change race. It's whichever race isn't winning tournaments immediately complains about everything. Very annoying and sad. If you want switch race just fucking switch race and don't bother us with these ridiculous threats.

It's so obvious the only reason they do this is not because they believe in the balance they proclaim but only because they are looking out for themselves and want an easier time winning shit.

The worst thing of it all may just be that people actually logon to TL and use the opinion of these players to support their balance whines, even though it's pretty damn obvious none of these players actually have a clue about balance and just want their own race to be better.

In a way I'm glad it's a Protoss doing it now because now if I yell at him I won't be attacked by angry Zerg and Terran players saying that it isn't my race that is underpowered.

On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:


Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone.

On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:
wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true"




If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality.

People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player?

On November 21 2010 22:48 clockwork. wrote:
you're all missing the most important thing: we can pick his race

~the people's progamer~

On November 21 2010 21:54 cascades wrote:
For good or for ill, the perception is that only whines work on Blizzard.

Zerg didn't get buffs for a long time. Only until Dimage, FruitDealer, and Check whined publicly that they did.

Problem is, Blizzard seems to not intend to buff Protoss.

Take BW. Protoss is the weakest race, but they didn't whine (enough) for a change to be made.

Hence, this worrying trend continues. Unless Blizzard is more proactive rather than reactive, whine threads will become even more commonplace.

On November 21 2010 22:12 Woony wrote:


I'm pretty certain that you would think different if you were trying to make a career off Starcraft.

On November 21 2010 22:54 NicolBolas wrote:
Certainly. So maybe it's not a good idea to try to make a career off of a 4 month old game that still has 2 expansions to come and will have innumerable balance patches made for it.

People keep trying to make StarCraft II grow up much faster than SC1 had to. It's not going to happen. If you're going to be a pro-gamer in the early days of SC2, you're going to have to accept that the game will have these kinds of things.

On November 21 2010 22:38 Tone_ wrote:
Okay let's think about it with a small amount of logic from start to finish.

If you play a game professionally and are good at it but consistently get under-par results then I'd imagine it does get frustrating. This may cause you to put the occasional rant on a forum or something (Fruitdealer, Boxer). These are some of the highest level players so until you are at their level I don't see how people can compare their own, or any other "whiners" situations to theirs.

Secondly he is posting a fairly calm, question based post within his own community. Nazgul and othe mods, tbh if it pisses you off then why do you have this stuff on the forums. Did he come to TL and post it? No. So what's happening is we're taking something that wasn't even posted to TL, and bitching about how he's shoving his complaining down our throats?

</logic>

People keep trying to make StarCraft II grow up much faster than SC1 had to. It's not going to happen. If you're going to be a pro-gamer in the early days of SC2, you're going to have to accept that the game will have these kinds of things.

On November 21 2010 22:10 ace246 wrote:


Are you implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch"? If so, thats kinda stupid isn't it? I mean saying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is pretty much BM to all the other terrans. Whereas "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch" isn't really offensive to anyone.

On November 21 2010 22:40 Supamang wrote:
wait, how did the "general consensus" in Korea go from PvZ being P favored (zomg even worse than TvZ some say!) to it being Z favored? maybe ive been an idiot all along for believing people when they say "well koreans say *blah* so it must be true"




If Metalwing was implying that "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" is a better statement than "I'll switch if zerg isn't fixed in the next patch", then I completely agree with him. At least Idra has self-respect, and not because he doesn't play terran. its because he believes in himself and his own abilities to the end and keeps his head up high despite going against the odds. I am no Idra lover either. Ive always disliked his BM and how much of an asshole he can be when losing, but I respect him as a strong player and a strong personality.

People look up to the progamers because of their ability and drive. People who make it to the top in anything should have confidence in their own abilities. How pathetic is it that tons of people respect Genius as a pro Protoss player when he himself doesnt have self-respect as a Protoss player?

On November 21 2010 22:53 bokeevboke wrote:


For me "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" = "Terran OP". Same as complaining.

On November 21 2010 22:53 bokeevboke wrote:


For me "I don't play Terran because I have self-respect" = "Terran OP". Same as complaining.

On November 21 2010 23:05 KevinIX wrote:
So we've now come full circle. Terran UP, Zerg UP, and now Protoss UP. Woooh!

On November 21 2010 23:17 Fantistic wrote:
Another reason why I dislike these threads is that Genius probably won't switch race at all. Next time a pro wants to blow off steam and exaggerate about imbalance, do it without saying "I'll switch race if Blizzard doesn't do something.". Otherwise, it spawns these types of threads which ultimately ends in yet another balance discussion.

On November 21 2010 23:17 Fantistic wrote:
Another reason why I dislike these threads is that Genius probably won't switch race at all. Next time a pro wants to blow off steam and exaggerate about imbalance, do it without saying "I'll switch race if Blizzard doesn't do something.". Otherwise, it spawns these types of threads which ultimately ends in yet another balance discussion.

On November 21 2010 23:19 ensis wrote:


well, the first one was dimaga alongside with fruitdealer, latter won the first gsl. the next one was foxer, i think, he got 2nd in 2nd gsl and now genius wants to change.... maybe it helps!

On November 21 2010 22:57 ace246 wrote:


The most intelligent post i've seen in this thread. Looking at the playxp discussion, no one there is arguing about it at all, they just vote off the race they want and yet here, we have a bunch of arguments about nothing which could possibly be something but no proof that it is. Nazgul and other people are ranting about how genius is complaining about the balance issue yet if you go to the original source, it was just presented as a simple question and genius did not even spread the word beyond playxp, just some TL bystander who happened to see his post and posted it here, instigating useless arguments that have no proof.

On November 21 2010 23:22 Tone_ wrote:


I really struggle to see why you bother posting stuff like this. First off it's clear you haven't read anything about this besides probably the title. The guy posted a question about switching race to one site in Korea. He didn't say "unless Blizz changes x", he didn't say "toss is UP". He just asked a small calm question to a community.

TL gets their hands on it and it's a 10 page rage thread about how Genius is raging and whining to everyone. Where is the sense.

On November 21 2010 23:08 Supamang wrote:

Yes, its the same as complaining, but thats not what the race changers are doing. Race changers are taking it to Emo level by threatening to change their race. Lets put it this way. Everyone complains about their life sucking at some point, but Emos are the ones cutting their wrists while doing it. Idra mighta been complaining, but he wasnt threatening to take action over it.

Genius might genuinely be thinking of changing races, know one except he can know for sure until he does or announces he wont. But given the fact that the only progamer I can think of off the top of my head who switched races were TLO and MorroW, and NEITHER of them were whining or threatening the race change beforehand. The others just went, "sike! im still gonna be *race* " after sufficient attention and cries for mercy were given to them. Theyre like kids threatening to run away from home when they dont like something. Again, its pathetic.