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On November 06 2010 08:15 Jayrod wrote:
I find zerg macro substantially easier than both protoss and terran for a couple of reasons
1) its very rhythmic. Once you have played them a handful of times its very easy to keep a steady APM and do all the things you need to do. The mere fact that people say they require higher apm doesn't make their macro more difficult... in any way... and to be honest the difference in APM is marginal at best.
2) Building placement is almost never relevant. They build fewer buildings, they dont build production buildings, they can build their version of a supply depot/pylon without clicking their screen, they dont have to worry about how many production buildings to build based on their income/strategy, they dont live and die by their ability to hold a ramp or seal off an area. Zergs can do 90% of their macro without ever looking at their base. My last PvZ game was against a 2000 zerg that built 5, count em 5 total buildings besides the hatcheries at his 2 expansions. I won, but 5?
Terran and protoss macro is much more difficult once you get a rhythm down for zerg, theyre just different.
zerg macro is pretty easy for me to pick up too (coming from your normal diamond player, not 2.3k or w/e) and it's relatively easy for me to keep my money low and keep up on larva injects. i actually have something to do with my apm now - with protoss a lot of it was just constantly moving my army around since there was nothing else to spend it on. creep tumors also increase this. i mean i have a normal apm of 80 as toss being passive (i NEVER spam, not even in the beginning) and the first time i ever played zerg i was sitting at around 90ish just droning up.
and i can actually macro and micro my army efficiently now - 1 s rrr then switch back to army...
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On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. I raised this point on the Blizzard forums and was mocked mercilessly by people. I see it as a fundamental design flaw to the game and another prime example of the SC2 team going straight to the drawing board for 'cool units' and not thinking about the dynamics of gameplay. Each race needs a 'drop' or harass of some kind. Each race needs detection. Each race needs a scouting ability. (you get the idea) This is pure game design, not 'lore' or anything just pure, core game design. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Terrans lose a large amount of worker units - spam mule Which race has the longest range units for air to air, ground to air and ground to ground (don't ask, you can guess the answer) Then you've got protection, which race has the best defended expansion? - yep that too, now which race can repair that defended expansion ... oh! So yeah, from a design perspective, if you were to tick off a checklist of features, sadly Terran wins a fuckload of options. Sure Protoss can warp things in anywhere and Zerg can tech switch fast - but ultimately, what works out for the best and wins the most games? Look at the core design of the game and say to yourself not "this is too strong" or "this is too cheap" but beyond that - "what can they do, which I simply can't do?" - even at this level, I feel Protoss is behind. One last thing, I just can't let it go, Marauder concussive build time and cost - as well as Marauder cost - do you know it slows every single Protoss ground unit except for one, every.single.one of them :/ You can see more of my thoughts on this here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801800789?page=1Warning, I get sick of playing nice on there and just turn full asshole in a few posts. Share your thoughts if any people.
Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
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Just imagine if when Bisu was working on his build one of his practice partners sent a replay to blizzard saying it was OP and they nerfed the build time on corsairs.
Course they did just that with the Reaver in Starcraft 1 and their addition of shuttle cooldown...
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On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. I raised this point on the Blizzard forums and was mocked mercilessly by people. I see it as a fundamental design flaw to the game and another prime example of the SC2 team going straight to the drawing board for 'cool units' and not thinking about the dynamics of gameplay. Each race needs a 'drop' or harass of some kind. Each race needs detection. Each race needs a scouting ability. (you get the idea) This is pure game design, not 'lore' or anything just pure, core game design. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Terrans lose a large amount of worker units - spam mule Which race has the longest range units for air to air, ground to air and ground to ground (don't ask, you can guess the answer) Then you've got protection, which race has the best defended expansion? - yep that too, now which race can repair that defended expansion ... oh! So yeah, from a design perspective, if you were to tick off a checklist of features, sadly Terran wins a fuckload of options. Sure Protoss can warp things in anywhere and Zerg can tech switch fast - but ultimately, what works out for the best and wins the most games? Look at the core design of the game and say to yourself not "this is too strong" or "this is too cheap" but beyond that - "what can they do, which I simply can't do?" - even at this level, I feel Protoss is behind. One last thing, I just can't let it go, Marauder concussive build time and cost - as well as Marauder cost - do you know it slows every single Protoss ground unit except for one, every.single.one of them :/ You can see more of my thoughts on this here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801800789?page=1Warning, I get sick of playing nice on there and just turn full asshole in a few posts. Share your thoughts if any people. Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
Well you aren't wrong obviously , you pointed out the strengths Terran has.
You just pretty much chose to not state the weaknesses Terran has and the strengths that other races have.
Whether you are unintentially or intentially trying to mislead people i don't know.
But fact is you have a whole lot of stuff you didn't even list.
Anyways , I did click on your link and everything needed to be said has pretty much been said by the people there.
So let's not try and derail the thread into another QQ thread.
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So you don't feel in regards to flexibility and variety in play options there's more room to move as T? Regardless of build times, unit costs / damage and stats in general, the abilities themselves, you don't think there's more options? I mean we all know before 1.2 the Zerg were utterly pidgeon holed in to very very few openings.
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I don't think anyone would disagree that Terran has the most options. But is it imbalanced in any way. No. In fact after 1.2 I switched to Random and found that Terran is my least favourite race to play simply cos i NEED to make something happen (do a strong early timing, dmg my opponent, super expand frenzy, w/e). Going into macro mode against any other race is sorta suicidal. However I don't think it's imbalance in any way , it's just the way the race is.
I do think there is a problem with Protoss however as i'm having really A LOT of problems with PvZ. Obviously you can't play a macro game , and there aren't many early timing options for PvZ. I find myself doing a 2-base Colossus timing almost every single game against Z. It could be my own problem cos I can't find another way that's effective against Z. GSL doesn't really help as there has been many PvZ wins at all (only 2 i think , both in RO64).
PvT is fine as I have the option to play a more solid macro game or 2-3 base timing pushes work relatively fine.
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On November 06 2010 16:52 john0507 wrote:
I don't think anyone would disagree that Terran has the most options. But is it imbalanced in any way. No. In fact after 1.2 I switched to Random and found that Terran is my least favourite race to play simply cos i NEED to make something happen (do a strong early timing, dmg my opponent, super expand frenzy, w/e). Going into macro mode against any other race is sorta suicidal. However I don't think it's imbalance in any way , it's just the way the race is.
Weird, this is why I switched to T and am massively enjoying it.
On November 06 2010 16:52 john0507 wrote:
I do think there is a problem with Protoss however as i'm having really A LOT of problems with PvZ. Obviously you can't play a macro game , and there aren't many early timing options for PvZ. I find myself doing a 2-base Colossus timing almost every single game against Z. It could be my own problem cos I can't find another way that's effective against Z. GSL doesn't really help as there has been many PvZ wins at all (only 2 i think , both in RO64).
I used to play P, may I suggest a 2 gate + Stargate => Zealots(however many you can make) + 2VR push, if all goes well you will reach his base before the spire is up, if he goes roaches you will have your VR ready before the roaches arrive (or will be completed during the battle if distances are really short). While you are attacking consider making Stalkers + Phoenixes/VR. This way if you are pushed back you can defend and/or counter-attack without losing time or leaving yourself open.( this build is effective even after the VR nerf)
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On November 06 2010 17:10 sqrt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 16:52 john0507 wrote:
I do think there is a problem with Protoss however as i'm having really A LOT of problems with PvZ. Obviously you can't play a macro game , and there aren't many early timing options for PvZ. I find myself doing a 2-base Colossus timing almost every single game against Z. It could be my own problem cos I can't find another way that's effective against Z. GSL doesn't really help as there has been many PvZ wins at all (only 2 i think , both in RO64). I used to play P, may I suggest a 2 gate + Stargate => Zealots(however many you can make) + 2VR push, if all goes well you will reach his base before the spire is up, if he goes roaches you will have your VR ready before the roaches arrive (or will be completed during the battle if distances are really short). While you are attacking consider making Stalkers + Phoenixes/VR. This way if you are pushed back you can defend and/or counter-attack without losing time or leaving yourself open.( this build is effective even after the VR nerf)
I tried this build before actually , my problem with it is IF the zerg goes roaches. Without the robo it's pretty much blind. And yes more often than not the VR comes out before the Roaches arrive, but that doesnt really stop an entire ground army trade , occasionally even getting some probes, then i'm stuck on 1 base vs 2 base.
It works pretty well against a muta+ling build , but it's kinda coin-flippy.
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I feel like im having de ja vu looking at this thread, hang on, wasnt it zerg that was fundamentally flawed a couple weeks ago? Oh wait, it turned out that some minor changes plus a shift in the metagame were all zerg needed to start doing well again. Now I dont deny that protoss is the weakest race at the moment, its pretty obvious, but we need to realize 1. how fragile the balance of a game like SC2 is, and 2. how likely it is that the balance will shift of its own accord, without any actual changes being made.
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On November 06 2010 10:46 phil.ipp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 09:27 doubled wrote:
Making it possible to hallucinate an observer would be an awesome change. Since then protoss also has a detection spell. Also maybe lower the research time for hallucinate, but that might not be necessary. this would be amazing would change the whole game protoss play would me much less robo centric
Yea, it would open up for so much more creative play. It would make the stargate tech path much more viable.
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On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. I raised this point on the Blizzard forums and was mocked mercilessly by people. I see it as a fundamental design flaw to the game and another prime example of the SC2 team going straight to the drawing board for 'cool units' and not thinking about the dynamics of gameplay. Each race needs a 'drop' or harass of some kind. Each race needs detection. Each race needs a scouting ability. (you get the idea) This is pure game design, not 'lore' or anything just pure, core game design. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Terrans lose a large amount of worker units - spam mule Which race has the longest range units for air to air, ground to air and ground to ground (don't ask, you can guess the answer) Then you've got protection, which race has the best defended expansion? - yep that too, now which race can repair that defended expansion ... oh! So yeah, from a design perspective, if you were to tick off a checklist of features, sadly Terran wins a fuckload of options. Sure Protoss can warp things in anywhere and Zerg can tech switch fast - but ultimately, what works out for the best and wins the most games? Look at the core design of the game and say to yourself not "this is too strong" or "this is too cheap" but beyond that - "what can they do, which I simply can't do?" - even at this level, I feel Protoss is behind. One last thing, I just can't let it go, Marauder concussive build time and cost - as well as Marauder cost - do you know it slows every single Protoss ground unit except for one, every.single.one of them :/ You can see more of my thoughts on this here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801800789?page=1Warning, I get sick of playing nice on there and just turn full asshole in a few posts. Share your thoughts if any people. Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
I garantuee you that at Gold level, you aren't losing due to any sort of racial imbalance. Im not trying to be a condecending jerk, but any advantages or disadvantages races may or may not have don't really come into play when they aren't being played close to their fullest.
Terran is versatile, thats how they are. You list out every good thing Terran has going for them and then you casually ignore every good thing that Protoss has going for them. So your post was flat out terrible to begin with, completely ignoring the balance at Gold league thing.
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On November 06 2010 14:09 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 08:15 Jayrod wrote:
I find zerg macro substantially easier than both protoss and terran for a couple of reasons
1) its very rhythmic. Once you have played them a handful of times its very easy to keep a steady APM and do all the things you need to do. The mere fact that people say they require higher apm doesn't make their macro more difficult... in any way... and to be honest the difference in APM is marginal at best.
2) Building placement is almost never relevant. They build fewer buildings, they dont build production buildings, they can build their version of a supply depot/pylon without clicking their screen, they dont have to worry about how many production buildings to build based on their income/strategy, they dont live and die by their ability to hold a ramp or seal off an area. Zergs can do 90% of their macro without ever looking at their base. My last PvZ game was against a 2000 zerg that built 5, count em 5 total buildings besides the hatcheries at his 2 expansions. I won, but 5?
Terran and protoss macro is much more difficult once you get a rhythm down for zerg, theyre just different. zerg macro is pretty easy for me to pick up too (coming from your normal diamond player, not 2.3k or w/e) and it's relatively easy for me to keep my money low and keep up on larva injects. i actually have something to do with my apm now - with protoss a lot of it was just constantly moving my army around since there was nothing else to spend it on. creep tumors also increase this. i mean i have a normal apm of 80 as toss being passive (i NEVER spam, not even in the beginning) and the first time i ever played zerg i was sitting at around 90ish just droning up. and i can actually macro and micro my army efficiently now - 1 s rrr then switch back to army...
Chrono Boost is exactly the same amount of energy as Larva Inject is, Larva Inject is just much more important and players always cry how punishing it is to miss even 1 or 2 Injects. But if you want to play Protoss with a lot of APM just check all the time that you don't forget your Chrono Boost. I personally think that protoss underestimate the impact of not using chrono boost on your workers in time and waiting for 60-80 energy to build up during fights. It really adds up in your worker count, if you use chrono boost consistently you have so much more workers than your opponent. Don't use it randomly.
My personal opinion is that Hallucination should be THE spell which gives protoss more flexibility by decreasing it's energy cost to something like 75 and additionally increasing the damage hallucinations take by another 50%. Also, even more importantly, I would suggest to decrease the research time to 70 from 110.
This would allow protoss on the hand to get some more cool flexibility and messing with their opponents and on the other hands get an opportunity to get an early scout if they really need it. Warpgate isn't as much of an MUST GET upgrade as most protoss think, if you decrease hallucination research timing it should be very well possible to get it early enough to get some essential scouting early and choose which tech path to take while still being safe to early pressure.
Imo hallucinations are not really used because they simply cost too much energy and positional advantage due to forcefields always overshine hallucinations in direct combats. Make hallucinations viable by giving them a better timing window where you can get them, they are such a cool tool. At the moment they are too dangerous to use in the essential early game scouting, because they are worth 2 VERY important forcefields and come way too late.
But by the way I don't think protoss is a weak race, they just feel quite gimmicky at the moment because no one really knows what to do. Give it some time and don't start QQing because there are 2 tournaments without protoss in top4. It can change very fast, just give them some time, maybe 4-5 months.
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On November 06 2010 22:29 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 14:09 Silidons wrote:On November 06 2010 08:15 Jayrod wrote:
I find zerg macro substantially easier than both protoss and terran for a couple of reasons
1) its very rhythmic. Once you have played them a handful of times its very easy to keep a steady APM and do all the things you need to do. The mere fact that people say they require higher apm doesn't make their macro more difficult... in any way... and to be honest the difference in APM is marginal at best.
2) Building placement is almost never relevant. They build fewer buildings, they dont build production buildings, they can build their version of a supply depot/pylon without clicking their screen, they dont have to worry about how many production buildings to build based on their income/strategy, they dont live and die by their ability to hold a ramp or seal off an area. Zergs can do 90% of their macro without ever looking at their base. My last PvZ game was against a 2000 zerg that built 5, count em 5 total buildings besides the hatcheries at his 2 expansions. I won, but 5?
Terran and protoss macro is much more difficult once you get a rhythm down for zerg, theyre just different. zerg macro is pretty easy for me to pick up too (coming from your normal diamond player, not 2.3k or w/e) and it's relatively easy for me to keep my money low and keep up on larva injects. i actually have something to do with my apm now - with protoss a lot of it was just constantly moving my army around since there was nothing else to spend it on. creep tumors also increase this. i mean i have a normal apm of 80 as toss being passive (i NEVER spam, not even in the beginning) and the first time i ever played zerg i was sitting at around 90ish just droning up. and i can actually macro and micro my army efficiently now - 1 s rrr then switch back to army... Chrono Boost is exactly the same amount of energy as Larva Inject is, Larva Inject is just much more important and players always cry how punishing it is to miss even 1 or 2 Injects. But if you want to play Protoss with a lot of APM just check all the time that you don't forget your Chrono Boost. I personally think that protoss underestimate the impact of not using chrono boost on your workers in time and waiting for 60-80 energy to build up during fights. It really adds up in your worker count, if you use chrono boost consistently you have so much more workers than your opponent. Don't use it randomly. My personal opinion is that Hallucination should be THE spell which gives protoss more flexibility by decreasing it's energy cost to something like 75 and additionally increasing the damage hallucinations take by another 50%. Also, even more importantly, I would suggest to decrease the research time to 70 from 110. This would allow protoss on the hand to get some more cool flexibility and messing with their opponents and on the other hands get an opportunity to get an early scout if they really need it. Warpgate isn't as much of an MUST GET upgrade as most protoss think, if you decrease hallucination research timing it should be very well possible to get it early enough to get some essential scouting early and choose which tech path to take while still being safe to early pressure. Imo hallucinations are not really used because they simply cost too much energy and positional advantage due to forcefields always overshine hallucinations in direct combats. Make hallucinations viable by giving them a better timing window where you can get them, they are such a cool tool. At the moment they are too dangerous to use in the essential early game scouting, because they are worth 2 VERY important forcefields and come way too late. But by the way I don't think protoss is a weak race, they just feel quite gimmicky at the moment because no one really knows what to do. Give it some time and don't start QQing because there are 2 tournaments without protoss in top4. It can change very fast, just give them some time, maybe 4-5 months.
Agreed. I've always liked the possibilities of using hallucination since it brings a lot of variety in play simply by producing a large number of hallucinated units. It can have many uses such as creating VRs to make it harder for the opponent to focus fire ground units etc. In addition, it would be very diverse in build orders if it was more easily accessible in the early game.
I think the main issue isn't a handful of those issues stated above. Research cost time being the same as warpgate (110) gives you a balanced tradeoff between a more army-unit-number orientation or a flexible orientation (scout with phoenix, bluffing any scouting with hallucinated army etc). The only real issue is the mana cost at 100. Sentries are already gas intensive and simply by training them you're sacrificing total damage output for mass forcefields which simply shows too much preference in sentries mainly to 'create' the battlefield' (provided they have enough sentries/energy for forcefields). By lowering the cost of hallucination we won't always just predict sentries as forcefield spam and a GS or two.
The buff to this more utility-based skill can possibly provide slight aid in early game kiting by MM allowing more 'dummy' units to cop the concussive shells allowing main army to catch up to the MM army. Just an example
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On November 06 2010 20:42 doubled wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:46 phil.ipp wrote:On November 06 2010 09:27 doubled wrote:
Making it possible to hallucinate an observer would be an awesome change. Since then protoss also has a detection spell. Also maybe lower the research time for hallucinate, but that might not be necessary. this would be amazing would change the whole game protoss play would me much less robo centric Yea, it would open up for so much more creative play. It would make the stargate tech path much more viable.
If we could hallucinate an observer that would be all that I would ask for. Regardless of our shitty air units that can never actually take map control since both terran and zerg have better air units than ours, moving the observer to hallucinate would let me open to HT's much faster, VRs, etc without having to worry.
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On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:
Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
That was an interesting look at Protoss and Zerg. No one can argue at how versatile the Terran race is. They have the most redundancy out of the three races. Redundancy allows mistakes to made and these mistakes to be masked or even corrected without massive repercussions.
For Zerg and Protoss, what seem to be small mistakes are actually huge, glaring issues that have now cost the game.
"Oh, you built Stalkers to counter mass Banshee? You have lost the game."
"You scouted a tech lab on a Barracks early in the game and had a cloaked Banshee roll into your Probe line and take 15 kills without any problem? Where is your detection?"
There are a plethora of other examples that I could bring up, but you get the idea. The Terran Marine is so insanely versatile, that it can be used to counter the counter to the Marine! Just watch Foxer play in the GSL. This proves that Terran units have much more staying power than Protoss units, making Marines a viable part of the army.
At this point in the game, I do not believe that Protoss is just simply underpowered when you compare unit stats to Terran. Lacking versatility is more crippling to the Protoss arsenal than anything else.
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On November 03 2010 07:05 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:43 Endorsed wrote:One button and all your energy and 100 shields (which is shields gone from all Gateway units) gone. GG. One button. Shields have been worthless since SC1 and ironically cost the most to upgrade as well lol. Like anyone upgrades shields...ZzZzZz. You really shouldn't be worrying about ghosts. If you lose to them in the early game/mid game it's because it's your own fault for heaving the wrong unit composition to deal with them, dont spread your units well. If he has ghosts early on it means he will have less medivacs/vikings. So adjusts your unit composition accordingly. Late game you have storm + HT's. Wich with amulet makes the matchup rediculous late game. There are no good timings to atack anymore because of the way warpgates and amulet HT's work. I always like how protoss player clump up all their HT's and then cry. Difference between EMP and Storm. 4 storms and the MMM ball is dead. 4 EMP's and the protoss army lost all their shields. Look where Ghosts are in the tech tree, now look at where amulet/storm upgraded HTs are in the tech tree, now look back again at Ghosts. I'm on a Horse User was warned for this post
lol
It is true though, a Terran could have ghosts really early if he wanted to. But templars are even more far up the tech tree.
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On November 06 2010 20:54 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. I raised this point on the Blizzard forums and was mocked mercilessly by people. I see it as a fundamental design flaw to the game and another prime example of the SC2 team going straight to the drawing board for 'cool units' and not thinking about the dynamics of gameplay. Each race needs a 'drop' or harass of some kind. Each race needs detection. Each race needs a scouting ability. (you get the idea) This is pure game design, not 'lore' or anything just pure, core game design. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Terrans lose a large amount of worker units - spam mule Which race has the longest range units for air to air, ground to air and ground to ground (don't ask, you can guess the answer) Then you've got protection, which race has the best defended expansion? - yep that too, now which race can repair that defended expansion ... oh! So yeah, from a design perspective, if you were to tick off a checklist of features, sadly Terran wins a fuckload of options. Sure Protoss can warp things in anywhere and Zerg can tech switch fast - but ultimately, what works out for the best and wins the most games? Look at the core design of the game and say to yourself not "this is too strong" or "this is too cheap" but beyond that - "what can they do, which I simply can't do?" - even at this level, I feel Protoss is behind. One last thing, I just can't let it go, Marauder concussive build time and cost - as well as Marauder cost - do you know it slows every single Protoss ground unit except for one, every.single.one of them :/ You can see more of my thoughts on this here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801800789?page=1Warning, I get sick of playing nice on there and just turn full asshole in a few posts. Share your thoughts if any people. Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am? I garantuee you that at Gold level, you aren't losing due to any sort of racial imbalance. Im not trying to be a condecending jerk, but any advantages or disadvantages races may or may not have don't really come into play when they aren't being played close to their fullest. Terran is versatile, thats how they are. You list out every good thing Terran has going for them and then you casually ignore every good thing that Protoss has going for them. So your post was flat out terrible to begin with, completely ignoring the balance at Gold league thing.
Oh I'm not implying for a second these imbalances are affecting my play, that would be folly.
I find it frustrating as someone who watches probably just as many hours as anyone on this site of the game online, that I'm not allowed to have an opinion generally unless I'm a diamond player.
A gold player who never watches a replay, never watches any streams - can't comment on shit but as someone who watches just so much and sees how things play out, I don't see why I can't have an opinion.
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On November 07 2010 01:16 morsX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:
Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
That was an interesting look at Protoss and Zerg. No one can argue at how versatile the Terran race is. They have the most redundancy out of the three races. Redundancy allows mistakes to made and these mistakes to be masked or even corrected without massive repercussions. For Zerg and Protoss, what seem to be small mistakes are actually huge, glaring issues that have now cost the game. "Oh, you built Stalkers to counter mass Banshee? You have lost the game." "You scouted a tech lab on a Barracks early in the game and had a cloaked Banshee roll into your Probe line and take 15 kills without any problem? Where is your detection?" There are a plethora of other examples that I could bring up, but you get the idea. The Terran Marine is so insanely versatile, that it can be used to counter the counter to the Marine! Just watch Foxer play in the GSL. This proves that Terran units have much more staying power than Protoss units, making Marines a viable part of the army. At this point in the game, I do not believe that Protoss is just simply underpowered when you compare unit stats to Terran. Lacking versatility is more crippling to the Protoss arsenal than anything else.
Well you seem to agree entirely, I appreciate it, I put a lot of thought in to it - but seeings as I'm a scrub, it'll likely go ignored :D
and yeah, my concern is the flexibility / versatility - it's a core game design thing, not a stats and numbers thing.
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On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. I raised this point on the Blizzard forums and was mocked mercilessly by people. I see it as a fundamental design flaw to the game and another prime example of the SC2 team going straight to the drawing board for 'cool units' and not thinking about the dynamics of gameplay. Each race needs a 'drop' or harass of some kind. Each race needs detection. Each race needs a scouting ability. (you get the idea) This is pure game design, not 'lore' or anything just pure, core game design. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Terrans lose a large amount of worker units - spam mule Which race has the longest range units for air to air, ground to air and ground to ground (don't ask, you can guess the answer) Then you've got protection, which race has the best defended expansion? - yep that too, now which race can repair that defended expansion ... oh! So yeah, from a design perspective, if you were to tick off a checklist of features, sadly Terran wins a fuckload of options. Sure Protoss can warp things in anywhere and Zerg can tech switch fast - but ultimately, what works out for the best and wins the most games? Look at the core design of the game and say to yourself not "this is too strong" or "this is too cheap" but beyond that - "what can they do, which I simply can't do?" - even at this level, I feel Protoss is behind. One last thing, I just can't let it go, Marauder concussive build time and cost - as well as Marauder cost - do you know it slows every single Protoss ground unit except for one, every.single.one of them :/ You can see more of my thoughts on this here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801800789?page=1Warning, I get sick of playing nice on there and just turn full asshole in a few posts. Share your thoughts if any people. Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
So broodwar has a design flaw too ?
Is this smackdown enough ? :D
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On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am?
Nobody responded because your post is stupid. If you're having terrans "spam scans" on you, as you put it, then you're obviously playing in silver league, because no good terrans have energy to spam scans before lategame. If you can't beat terrans who aren't even using their macro mechanic at all and instead save all their energy for scans, I don't really know what to tell you.
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EPT
