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On November 06 2010 05:26 LazyMacro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote:
Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable.
Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol.
I switched to Zerg a week ago. I already do better. I never realized how much easier it is to macro as zerg, you can build all your units without going back to your base (except to inject larvae). I can micro like the pros! (lol)
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the problem is, protoss has to many weeknesses.
not the strongness is the problem. thats why u cant simply buff some units, u have to integrate more viability and flexibility to this race.
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On November 06 2010 06:01 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:26 LazyMacro wrote:On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote:
Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable.
Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol. I switched to Zerg a week ago. I already do better. I never realized how much easier it is to macro as zerg, you can build all your units without going back to your base (except to inject larvae). I can micro like the pros! (lol)
u can inject larva through minimap, the nearest queen will do it...
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On November 06 2010 06:01 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:26 LazyMacro wrote:On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote:
Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable.
Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol. I switched to Zerg a week ago. I already do better. I never realized how much easier it is to macro as zerg, you can build all your units without going back to your base (except to inject larvae). I can micro like the pros! (lol)
zergs act like inject larva made their race macro the hardest while its unbelivable easy compered to other races, 1 tech building and then spam hotkeys and micro while others have to add new producing buildings in heat of battle, even with supply buildings is easier because you can just spam ovies,
hotkey every qeeen and i can inject larva with my eyes closed ....
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larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though.
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larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though.
I agree that it is very hard to manage with multiple base. However, I don't think the game is balanced around it. What I mean is that Inject Larva on multiple bases will equalize other races' macro mechanism even if it is not used immediately. This shows that if it is timed right, zerg will outmacro any other races. Again, this is what I think about the mechanism, nothing to back it up.
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On November 06 2010 06:27 taintmachine wrote:
larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though.
Having multiple nexusess and chain chrono boosting multiple upgrades with out missing ain't the easiest thing aswell. Teran got the easiest drop and forget.
Completely missing larva injects is the most punishing. But most protoss players do have constant refreshment of units from warpgate each 40s¬ so transitioning to larva injects won't be a problem for a protos player.
Personally i think one of the reasons why most other people don't transition is still hoping for something better for toss and hating TvT and ZvZ far more then PvT, PvZ combined.
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On November 06 2010 06:40 Zrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:27 taintmachine wrote:
larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though. Having multiple nexusess and chain chrono boosting multiple upgrades with out missing ain't the easiest thing aswell. Teran got the easiest drop and forget. Completely missing larva injects is the most punishing. But most protoss players do have constant refreshment of units from warpgate each 40s¬ so transitioning to larva injects won't be a problem for a protos player. Personally i think one of the reasons why most other people don't transition is still hoping for something better for toss and hating TvT and ZvZ far more then PvT, PvZ combined.
Exactly this.
I am losing all interest in P right now... not because of any supposed balance issue, but because of the race design. However, this has been my race since BW and that's hard to let it go...
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On November 06 2010 06:27 taintmachine wrote:
larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though.
you rarely have enough resources to spare it on all larvas so if u forget one inject here or there that doesnt rly make a big difference, you also can add 1 more hatch to solve not enough larva problem.
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On November 06 2010 05:59 Zrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:46 darmousseh wrote:On November 06 2010 05:34 Hellye wrote:
Move observer to core! It would delay the oh so dreaded - -' 4gate and toss would be in the same situation as zerg ( meaning getting detection in a essential structure to all their tech paths ). Actually i think observer to templar archives would be fine with me as well. It would force protoss to build an early templar archives which is not neccesarily a bad thing because of the awesome upgrades. I really hope your trolling, you want to increase the path to observer by 100/200 and 50s?
Sorry I meant to say twilight council lol. templar archives would be horrible.
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err, i suppose i didn't use the best wording. i meant larvae inject is insanely powerful on multiple bases, not insanely hard to do 
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I'm not sure yet, 2GSL is too small of a sample to really be sure.
Also there are too few really good protoss in these GSL. And the likeliness of a single player getting eliminated at a point is high even against weaker players, you need more strong players to hope see some of them deeper into the tournament.
I'll wait for more tournaments to be sure about it.
Me as a protoss on a side note I feel the issue is protoss has a very glass canon vibe, it's like when everything line up you really wreak havoc but something wrong happens and the recovery seem harder than zerg or terran. But that's just a feeling.
That and the stupid lack of easy to get detection forcing robo which is a huge investment.
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I find zerg macro substantially easier than both protoss and terran for a couple of reasons
1) its very rhythmic. Once you have played them a handful of times its very easy to keep a steady APM and do all the things you need to do. The mere fact that people say they require higher apm doesn't make their macro more difficult... in any way... and to be honest the difference in APM is marginal at best.
2) Building placement is almost never relevant. They build fewer buildings, they dont build production buildings, they can build their version of a supply depot/pylon without clicking their screen, they dont have to worry about how many production buildings to build based on their income/strategy, they dont live and die by their ability to hold a ramp or seal off an area. Zergs can do 90% of their macro without ever looking at their base. My last PvZ game was against a 2000 zerg that built 5, count em 5 total buildings besides the hatcheries at his 2 expansions. I won, but 5?
Terran and protoss macro is much more difficult once you get a rhythm down for zerg, theyre just different.
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On November 06 2010 07:50 rezoacken wrote:
I'm not sure yet, 2GSL is too small of a sample to really be sure.
Also there are too few really good protoss in these GSL. And the likeliness of a single player getting eliminated at a point is high even against weaker players, you need more strong players to hope see some of them deeper into the tournament.
I'll wait for more tournaments to be sure about it.
Me as a protoss on a side note I feel the issue is protoss has a very glass canon vibe, it's like when everything line up you really wreak havoc but something wrong happens and the recovery seem harder than zerg or terran. But that's just a feeling.
That and the stupid lack of easy to get detection forcing robo which is a huge investment.
Agreed protoss is strong if you don't get heavy pokes before 2 bases and your 3rd base doesn't get denied or pressured, once your set with that the game is favored for you to win.
Loosing early units is the most cripling for protoss since our units cost the most and are quite bad w/o collosus or storms assisting them.
Getting back up from early probe loss is nearly impossible for protoss i haven't seen a pro player get back up from getting early harassed as in 6-12 probe loss.
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On November 06 2010 06:11 zomgad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:01 lowercase wrote:On November 06 2010 05:26 LazyMacro wrote:On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote:
Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable.
Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol. I switched to Zerg a week ago. I already do better. I never realized how much easier it is to macro as zerg, you can build all your units without going back to your base (except to inject larvae). I can micro like the pros! (lol) zergs act like inject larva made their race macro the hardest while its unbelivable easy compered to other races, 1 tech building and then spam hotkeys and micro while others have to add new producing buildings in heat of battle, even with supply buildings is easier because you can just spam ovies, hotkey every qeeen and i can inject larva with my eyes closed ....
It's so easy pros like idra and zenio never have their queen go higher than 25 energy! Oh wait...
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Making it possible to hallucinate an observer would be an awesome change. Since then protoss also has a detection spell. Also maybe lower the research time for hallucinate, but that might not be necessary.
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On November 06 2010 06:44 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:40 Zrah wrote:On November 06 2010 06:27 taintmachine wrote:
larva inject is still the most punishing macro mechanic to neglect. it's insane on multiple bases, though. Having multiple nexusess and chain chrono boosting multiple upgrades with out missing ain't the easiest thing aswell. Teran got the easiest drop and forget. Completely missing larva injects is the most punishing. But most protoss players do have constant refreshment of units from warpgate each 40s¬ so transitioning to larva injects won't be a problem for a protos player. Personally i think one of the reasons why most other people don't transition is still hoping for something better for toss and hating TvT and ZvZ far more then PvT, PvZ combined. Exactly this. I am losing all interest in P right now... not because of any supposed balance issue, but because of the race design. However, this has been my race since BW and that's hard to let it go...
I played Protoss in BW. I changed races because they just don't seem the same. Protoss used to be aggressive, but protoss now is a little Kitten.
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I think all the races are pretty balanced but I dont understand the void ray nerf. Void rays were in no way o.p. I dont get why zerg got buffs even after fruit dealer won the 1st gsl. But i think roaches are o.p. against brotoss because stalkers arent very good versus stalkers anymore. The roach range made roaches too good vs gateway units. I though hydras were supposed to be the counter to mass gateway units not roaches
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On November 06 2010 09:27 doubled wrote:
Making it possible to hallucinate an observer would be an awesome change. Since then protoss also has a detection spell. Also maybe lower the research time for hallucinate, but that might not be necessary.
this would be amazing would change the whole game
protoss play would me much less robo centric
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On November 06 2010 10:18 meltingmykohchoo wrote:
I think all the races are pretty balanced but I dont understand the void ray nerf. Void rays were in no way o.p. I dont get why zerg got buffs even after fruit dealer won the 1st gsl. But i think roaches are o.p. against brotoss because stalkers arent very good versus stalkers anymore. The roach range made roaches too good vs gateway units. I though hydras were supposed to be the counter to mass gateway units not roaches
so you are saying zerg should expand to keep up unit production, tech up to lair and build hydra den to beat units from 4 gates that only need one tech building, since forcefields can decrease the damage of lings to zero what else could the zerg do besides roaches?stalkers arent specialised in killing armoured units because they are an allround unit that is also able to attack air
the voidray nerf was unnecessary i strongly agree with that but imo their strange design with different damage outputs is what messed them up
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EPT
