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On November 05 2010 12:18 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait  Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables. Immortals= EMP Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking Phoenix= Thor Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks. DT- Raven/Scans All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= Thor
All countered very well by marines.
Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.
A fine counter is MMM.
DT- Raven/Scans
Really? All it takes is one scan and any units to kill them. or ghosts. or ravens.
And with the micro of foxer, all is countered by marines. Oh okay then collosus right?! Add some marauders.
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On November 05 2010 14:54 Rebornlife wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 12:18 Raiden X wrote:On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables. Immortals= EMP Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking Phoenix= Thor Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks. DT- Raven/Scans All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= ThorAll countered very well by marines. Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.A fine counter is MMM. DT- Raven/ScansReally? All it takes is one scan and any units to kill them. or ghosts. or ravens. And with the micro of foxer, all is countered by marines. Oh okay then collosus right?! Add some marauders.
Kind of miss that bolded/underlined/red bit in the quote? Yes mmm deals with it hence that's what you get.
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Zealots are underpowered for cost (marine beats them and is ranged... what?
Stalker is outrageously overpriced lowest dps per cost in game but at least i can hit air sup
colossus hard countered easily, vikings +4 vs armored corrupter bonus vs massive no more feed back sup.
phoenix overpriced when the only two units it actually works against are mutas (only when heavily microd) and banshee (cause banshee can't hit them)
immortals overpriced, buying that robo for 200/100 (why so much mineral blizzard?) and find out cost per cost immortal only matches roach/marauder, but once roach/marauder get in numbers immortal lose how fair)
Psi storm joke of its former power, ever try psi storming siege tanks in sc2? nothings going to happen, psi storming marauder? lol they even stimmed. psi storm roach? LOL burrowed roach heal is almost out healing the entire psi storm. Psi storm vs thor/bc/ultra? better off score screening.
Blizzard thoughts on underpowered toss - we think psi storm is OP.
No wonder there are no new protoss progamer. and the ones that stuck through all the race breaking nerfs are failing.
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this thread really make people qq. protoss had a bad showing thats all. they own late game against every race basically.
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I think it really boils down to finding a way to fix the forced blind Robo, and immoral to tank problem as stated.
I think its crazy people want buffed gateway units.
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On November 05 2010 15:01 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:54 Rebornlife wrote:On November 05 2010 12:18 Raiden X wrote:On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables. Immortals= EMP Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking Phoenix= Thor Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks. DT- Raven/Scans All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= ThorAll countered very well by marines. Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.A fine counter is MMM. DT- Raven/ScansReally? All it takes is one scan and any units to kill them. or ghosts. or ravens. And with the micro of foxer, all is countered by marines. Oh okay then collosus right?! Add some marauders. Kind of miss that bolded/underlined/red bit in the quote? Yes mmm deals with it hence that's what you get.
I guess we were proving the same point in different ways. His Pov is that mech terran is countered by protoss too easily. (Which i disagree with) I was pointing out that almost everything protoss is countered by terran bio.
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So nerf warpgate, put it on the Twilight Council or somethin', or maybe bring back Dark Pylons and you can only warp in the vicinity of those.
The 4 WG rush really isn't necessary.
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On November 05 2010 15:26 Polygamy wrote:
I think it really boils down to finding a way to fix the forced blind Robo, and immoral to tank problem as stated.
I think its crazy people want buffed gateway units.
Agreed, except on the buffed gateway units. I really think zealots (uncharged) need a buff. P is only race with slow melee units. T has no melee, zergs are all quite quick. Dts and zealots are very slow. Zealots in particular when they cant even deny scouting, and get micro'd all day by rines.
Increase zealot speed and nothing else, and i think it would really equal early game out. And/or make charge similar to Concussive. Make it cheaper and easier to obtain.
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On November 05 2010 15:14 Looky wrote:
this thread really make people qq. protoss had a bad showing thats all. they own late game against every race basically.
Zerg does by far. They can recreate their arm in seconds, mobile, and scary good units.
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On November 05 2010 15:40 Rebornlife wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:26 Polygamy wrote:
I think it really boils down to finding a way to fix the forced blind Robo, and immoral to tank problem as stated.
I think its crazy people want buffed gateway units. Agreed, except on the buffed gateway units. I really think zealots (uncharged) need a buff. P is only race with slow melee units. T has no melee, zergs are all quite quick. Dts and zealots are very slow. Zealots in particular when they cant even deny scouting, and get micro'd all day by rines. Increase zealot speed and nothing else, and i think it would really equal early game out. And/or make charge similar to Concussive. Make it cheaper and easier to obtain.
The biggest problem with this is that making charge like a 50/50 upgrade and reducing the research time would be pretty game breaking. Against small numbers zealots demolish marines. It only becomes a problem when you hit a huge mass of MM when you need to have Colossus/High Templar to deal with it. If you made Concussive actually take some kind of other tech to get (like Factory or Ebay) it would probably slow it down enough.
The same goes for Zerg, You -cannot- simply go Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. You are required to get either HT or Colossus to even the odds of a ground battle. If I could just go core gateway units, I probably would. But as it is currently against both zerg and terran, I feel that you -have- to have Colossus or Storm because all the core units of Terran are ranged and at a certain point the damage potential goes out of control (Mostly because of stimmed marines). Without having Colossus or Storm to deal with the huge ball, it becomes almost impossible to stop terran. Zergs Roach/Hydra composition is probably easier to deal with vs. Colossus. Since Roaches tank storm so well.
Granted, having 3+ colossus with +1-3 upgrades is pretty retarded to deal with. I'm sure terran and zerg don't want to deal with Colossus, but I have to keep getting them because of the above reasons.
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I am no expert on game design and balance nor to i care to be.
EMP is an awesome ability and when Blizzard switched it to Ghosts i had epic visions of high level Protosses sending out Observers and DTs ahead of their army to snipe as many Ghosts as they could in order to minimize the EMP count on their army when the inevitable engagement occurred. But none of that is happening.
I recall Blizzard saying that their design philosophy was something along the lines of an ability or unit had to be not only fun to use, but fun to fight against. There is nothing skill based or fun going on to fight against EMP really. There are things people can do if they want to sink a bunch of focus into a dice roll, and there is feedback i suppose, but neither of those options seem to be spawning entertaining or worthwhile results yet. We will have to wait and see what happens i guess. But i am hoping that there is a more cat and mouse element to EMP vs Protoss/Protoss vs EMP in the future. For the sake of both players and spectators.
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On November 05 2010 15:54 us.insurgency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:14 Looky wrote:
this thread really make people qq. protoss had a bad showing thats all. they own late game against every race basically. Zerg does by far. They can recreate their arm in seconds, mobile, and scary good units.
Yup. Zerg is the best race for late game. They can instant spawn their army with good units - it's impossible to stop. All the GSL wins against Zerg are early to mid game - nobody wants to go to a late game against Zerg because it's rather imbalanced in favor of Zerg at the moment.
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Zerg best end game
Terran best early game
Protoss best mid game all ins D:
Thats the current state of what strats seems to gravitate to :/
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um, guys, i really agree that toss is up. but! stop talking about possible balance changes in the current state. the reason is pvz. pvz right now is a complete mess, best example is gsl. you should wait a few weeks till this completely new matchup has settled a little bit. otherwise any buff could have a detremendous effect. i hate waiting for the metagame because its a slow bitch, but the last patch needs still a bit of time. because right now, no one really CAN know what protoss is really weak to. i mean, obviously terran is still overpowered by a certain degree. its impossible that they are owning 50% of top 100 ladder and tournaments since several month. screw that, they are not better, there are plenty of good starcraft broodwar and wc3 pros out there playing protoss.
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On November 05 2010 14:54 Rebornlife wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 12:18 Raiden X wrote:On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables. Immortals= EMP Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking Phoenix= Thor Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks. DT- Raven/Scans All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= ThorAll countered very well by marines. Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.A fine counter is MMM. DT- Raven/ScansReally? All it takes is one scan and any units to kill them. or ghosts. or ravens. And with the micro of foxer, all is countered by marines. Oh okay then collosus right?! Add some marauders.
EMP also reveals cloaked units - for me it's outrageous how many terrans constantly overlook that, I'd trade you my mothership for a unit that can reveal cloaked units AND has awsome uses beside that (snipe, shield/energy-remove and even nuke)
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well, seems like the thread is facing its depletion anytime soon^^
hope that every reasonable qq and justified rage has been posted and my brethren from ajur are feeling at least a bit relieved and maybe even a bit enlightened^^
anyways PROTOSS FIGHTING!!!!!!!
oh, and my bet for the next p nerf is storm, sure about that^^
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I agree the biggest problem is detection; zerg gets detection by simply taking the game past an early stage, and terran gets scans. While scans arn't as good as a reliable detection unit, they are enough to buy you time to get reliable detection. I think something of similar effect for protoss- that is to say something intended to buy time to get an emergency robo up if you used a different opening- would help the game a bit. Maybe make it so moving in range of a chrono-boosted structure causes cloaking to malfunction (and make it so you can waste a chrono on non-producing structures, and perhaps carriers)? A big argument of the balance of scans is you waste potential mules- the same would be true for this chrono-boost.
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On November 05 2010 15:37 GoldenH wrote:
So nerf warpgate, put it on the Twilight Council or somethin'
Hmm, I actually somehow like this (if it was balanced out by improving something else, obviously).
Never liked the idea of getting Warpgates instantly after CC. If the research was pushed back somewhat, non-Warpgate builds could actually be viable.
In general, I'd take any nerf to Immortals / Colossi in exchange for buffing anything else. Or just anything to make Robo tech less dominant really.
Or buff Phoenix. Just one little Phoenix buff and I'll never ask for anything again. xD
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On November 05 2010 21:37 Gileril wrote:
I agree the biggest problem is detection; zerg gets detection by simply taking the game past an early stage, and terran gets scans. While scans arn't as good as a reliable detection unit, they are enough to buy you time to get reliable detection. I think something of similar effect for protoss- that is to say something intended to buy time to get an emergency robo up if you used a different opening- would help the game a bit. Maybe make it so moving in range of a chrono-boosted structure causes cloaking to malfunction (and make it so you can waste a chrono on non-producing structures, and perhaps carriers)? A big argument of the balance of scans is you waste potential mules- the same would be true for this chrono-boost.
This is actually a pretty good idea! It allows some time to be bought against banshees instead of an instalose, can only be used defensively (I'd personally not allow chrono on pylons, this might make the ability to cheap when used offensively) and offers some great mechanics while not affecting too many other things. The only thing is.... DT's in PvP would become even more of a no-no.
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EPT
