On November 05 2010 08:27 MapleFractal wrote: hey im only gold level [...]i find that protoss really isnt that Underpowered
This, Sir, is the core reason of all our problems.
Protoss is a very neatly designed race UNTIL you face opponents who will stomp your face into the ground if you make a mistake early.
I'm not even being cynical, reapers were OP vs zerg on ALL levels (well, maybe bronze-players don't have the micro to move even these units around properly...dunno....) but toss only lacks at the high(er) end.
I think it starts at mid-diamond, then you get opponents who will just frickin kill you if you miss a force-field or don't calculate your zealot-meatshield properly and they can start throwing concussive balls of GG at your stalkers before you can replenish your zealots.
If protoss were hard to play at the lower end, we would never have had this discussion in the first place.
On November 05 2010 04:54 ensis wrote: well, everyone who says it all comes down to warpprism use is a noob imo and is jsut searching for excuses. just imagine, like in the oldspice commercial. hi noobies,
now look at a 4 stalker drop now look at a 4 blue hellion drop now back to the stalkers now back to the hellions sadly the stalkers arent the hellions but they could at least act like they were doing damage if they dressed like a marauder look at your base, back at your enemy. wheres your drop? Its gone with the stalkers that at least looked like marauders whats in your head? i have it! its rage! your rank now WAS diamond. well, everything was possible if you were terran and not a protoss i´m underpowered
if you dont get the joke look at this
Now look at a high templar Now look at a ghost Now back to the templar Now back to the ghost Sadly, the templars aren't ghosts But they could at least act like they were ghosts, if they were worth building Look at your base Now back at your army Back at your base Now back at your army Where has your army gone? I killed it! They had no more shields and energy Your rank WAS diamond! Now, it's time to GG You have to micro every time you build units Your opponent just spams MULES I'm underpowered.
Why again with the obs on nexus ? don't you realize how bad that puts back protoss economy? You might as well invite the banshee into your base and have it kill off 3 probes each time. And you can't just get one observer! You need 3-4 or more, really! Even if you put the obs on the nexus, you can't move it there. It's bad enough halting probe production for the mothership.
Honest, its not just getting the obs. In order to deal with banshee, you also need several gateways or a stargate to build units that can kill it. 'Cuz nothing out of the Robo will shoot air.... Its not just the one Banshee either, its like, Terrans will go MASS CLOAKED BANSHEE out of 2 starports, expand, and build even more!
If obs were on nexus, I would go forge-stargate against banshee every time rather than take the probe loss.. that way at least I would only need one observer and could still expand on time.
On November 05 2010 08:27 MapleFractal wrote: hey im only gold level [...]i find that protoss really isnt that Underpowered
This, Sir, is the core reason of all our problems.
Protoss is a very neatly designed race UNTIL you face opponents who will stomp your face into the ground if you make a mistake early.
I'm not even being cynical, reapers were OP vs zerg on ALL levels (well, maybe bronze-players don't have the micro to move even these units around properly...dunno....) but toss only lacks at the high(er) end.
I think it starts at mid-diamond, then you get opponents who will just frickin kill you if you miss a force-field or don't calculate your zealot-meatshield properly and they can start throwing concussive balls of GG at your stalkers before you can replenish your zealots.
If protoss were hard to play at the lower end, we would never have had this discussion in the first place.
heyyy your really good at using that quote button and editing out stuff, you should get a job working for the media they love people who miss quote! but as i said in the [...] i dont have anything to say about imba or anything like that. i was simply following the forum rules for giving a +1 to a previous quote while not getting a flagged post for wasted space(there is a thread for those as well! wow). however seeing as you would like to bring skill and division level into the equation you could listen to SoTG, and listen to iNcontroL, Idra, Day[9], LiquidTyler, and JP talked about this very thing on episode18(most recent). if peoples division is the factor that allows peoples opinions to be valid then even the mid diamond players that would smoke us low-ly gold players 9 out of 10 times, your opinion is mute when they speak and we should just close the thread and the forum and listen to what the pros say and take their word as law. so common guy lets not get all handy with our editing skills just to add to our post count. But now were really off topic, i hope to see some toss in the GSL top 4 soon possibly a ZvP final would be pritty epic
On November 04 2010 08:28 robertdinh wrote: It's humorous how people let their biases dictate their view on balance.
When zergs were considered underpowered to zealot pushes and reaper harass, people were saying "zerg players just need to learn how to play" and zerg players were saying "NO we REALLY are underpowered".
Now zerg got their buffs + indirect buffs through nerfs to other races and things are peachy.
The problem is, Blizzard didn't just buff Zerg. If they had just buffed Zerg, maybe the balance would be a bit more normalized now. Instead, Blizzard nerfed Terran and Protoss at the same time that they buffed Zerg, and now the game has balance issues.
Its simple why protoss is doing bad.. because protoss is the worst race + hardest race to play good.. its funny people saying just wait and protoss will start doing better. It was obvious to me in beta that protoss would do the worst in tournaments.. tester surprised me in GSL1 but he still lost while playing by far the best which just reinforced my opinion.
Tester missing forcefields against ITR was one of the reasons he lost yeah.. but thats because he is a human. Balancing the game with something that isnt humanly possible to do 100% of the time is retarded. Zerg and Terran can make loads of small mistakes and still do just as good as the protoss.
I hope tester switches to terran/zerg just to show how weak protoss is.
One good thing is that blizzcon interview thing where I think they said that they want to balance PvT early and late game more..
heyyy your really good at using that quote button and editing out stuff, you should get a job working for the media they love people who miss quote! but as i said in the [...] i dont have anything to say about imba or anything like that. i was simply following the forum rules for giving a +1 to a previous quote while not getting a flagged post for wasted space(there is a thread for those as well! wow). however seeing as you would like to bring skill and division level into the equation you could listen to SoTG, and listen to iNcontroL, Idra, Day[9], LiquidTyler, and JP talked about this very thing on episode18(most recent). if peoples division is the factor that allows peoples opinions to be valid then even the mid diamond players that would smoke us low-ly gold players 9 out of 10 times, your opinion is mute when they speak and we should just close the thread and the forum and listen to what the pros say and take their word as law. so common guy lets not get all handy with our editing skills just to add to our post count. But now were really off topic, i hope to see some toss in the GSL top 4 soon possibly a ZvP final would be pritty epic
Funny you talk about SotG.. I listened it to myself earlier today.
I think that day[9] especially has not had a chance to play Protoss since the patch, so how would he know? Anyway, it's totally right that Protoss is not UP, its just that it lacks variety. They talk about how all the players did cute stuff and how they messed up stuff that is known to work... but guess what, what happens when a patch makes stuff that is 'known to work' not work anymore? It often looks like you just screwed it up. Especially true when the only way to hold off some builds with protoss is with things that look cute. The Bisu FE w/ corsairs is a great example, that looks absolutely cute doesn't it? I thought I was just microing much worse after the patch, but after watching the replays and analyzing my games I just realized how big a change it was.
I am sure protoss players will adapt to the patch by the next tourney, however, it will be by shrinking the number of viable builds, not increasing it.
Damn, I really like the Obs build from Nexus with a Core idea, upgrade cloak at Robo. I think this is a great idea because it makes the issues with BO limitation when playing Terran less of an issue yet it comes at the cost of stopping Prob production to make the ob.
On November 05 2010 08:14 STenSatsu wrote: sangho lost cause he forgot a FF
This is a bit too much generalization that make it sound like doing a certain thing (i.e missing a FF or doing all-in) instantly would cause Protoss to lose. How about we analyze the entire game instead?
-SangHo v (fake)BoxeR game 1:
BoxeR made 2 rax (one hidden) and went for early aggression focusing entirely on building units and teching only from the tech lab. -Sacrifice: no early economy or teching -Gain: large army early in game that could do serious damage or kill opponent IF army gets past ramp and protoss does not have enough defense. -Advantage: if push gets up ramp and encounters weak defense, then it will win the game or do enough damage to severely hamper opponent. -Draw: if opponent made enough defense or units to hold off the push and you withdraw with army. Thus both of you still stuck at tier1 with same situation. -Disadvantage: opponent made just enough sentries to block off ramp while he teched, then once the tech investment comes out you have to retreat while being behind in tech OR you tried to push up the ramp against FF and got your army split and picked off, time to retreat and defend to survive.
SangHo made 2 gateways (+ core) then robo, making only one zealot and 2 sentries. -Sacrifice: weak early army so no aggression possible, flimsy defense reliant on sentry FF -Gain: getting faster tech in order to get robotics (possibly for faster colossi for a stronger midgame army? didn't get to see his plan) -Advantage: if enemy never pushes or gets up ramp then you'll be at a tech advantage, this can lead to many other strategies OR enemy pushes up ramp but you do an amazing FF to split army and pick off a few units thus weakening whole push. Once your next round of units come out you just have to clean up. -Draw: you made enough units out of 2 gates (or cannon?) to hold off the push, now you have same tech as opponent and it's time to move to next phase of your gameplan. -Disadvantage: you mess up ff at ramp and they come in and do heavy damage or just kill you off cuz you spent all your early resources on tech.
-Outcome: BoxeR pushes at ramp with a few SCVs and every combat unit he has. SangHo messes up FF horribly (missed FF timing by like 2 seconds) then FFs in middle of nowhere, but only after he warps in nothing but sentries. Thus having only one weakened zealot and 4 sentries to defend against 3 scvs, 5 marines, and 2 marauders. Terran easily push into base and build a bunker in a prime position so that by the time immortal and stalkers come out it's already too late.
-Conclusion: if you're going for a build that relies on good forcefields to survive against early aggression so that you can pull away with an early advantage, make sure you don't fuck up those forcefields. If you hate relying on perfect forcefields to keep you alive, don't go for this type of build.
On November 05 2010 04:48 Effen wrote: GUYS WHY WERENT THE RED SOX IN ANY OF THE LAST TWO WORLD SERIES? OH MY GOD WHY WHY WHY?
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you are basing your opinion on such a small sample size that it is 100% invalid. you gotta look at the bigger picture.
You're pretty ignorant if you compare baseball with SC2. You might have a point if it is elephants playing against humans, but no it's not.
I'm not sure it's a problem with the race from watching the GSL, more likely a problem with the players. There's never been instance where I've gone "wow that protoss played amazing but still lost" but more where the protoss player made poor decisions or huge mistakes to cost them the game.
Instead of finding new strategies, I think protoss pros need to first find consistency in their play. Dominating some matches and playing poorly in others is a bad thing to have in the knockout format of GSL.
Consistency is a useful talent toi have.
Has it also occur to you that many, many Terran/Zerg players also made several mistakes in their gameplay throughout the series that made far less impact than a Protoss did?
misplaced Forcefield= almost loss or loss choosing a wrong tech path (and by that I mean non-Robo against T/Z)= loss
Seriously we're not talking about buffing Zealots to 1000000/1000000, but just making early game forgiving enough to permit variety and proper expansion (into different plays). Many of us are reasonable enough to see that warpgate will probably need to be adjusted so that the early game buff wouldn't be ridiculous.
How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop.
On November 05 2010 10:09 david0925 wrote: misplaced Forcefield= almost loss or loss.
Sure, but at the same time, excellent forcefields = the other army being devastated.
How many times have you seen a Protoss army finish a battle with at least half their forces still standing because they completely cut the opposition in half with forcefields? I've seen this plenty of times. I was watching iccup KOTH the other day and saw a maxed Terran army shat all over because the P forcefielded brilliantly.
They can be ridiculously overpowered and quite bad depending on how good the player behind the P army is.
On November 05 2010 08:14 STenSatsu wrote: sangho lost cause he forgot a FF
This is a bit too much generalization that make it sound like doing a certain thing (i.e missing a FF or doing all-in) instantly would cause Protoss to lose. How about we analyze the entire game instead?
-SangHo v (fake)BoxeR game 1:
[...]
SangHo made 2 gateways (+ core) then robo, making only one zealot and 2 sentries. -Sacrifice: weak early army so no aggression possible, flimsy defense reliant on sentry FF -Gain: getting faster tech in order to get robotics (possibly for faster colossi for a stronger midgame army? didn't get to see his plan) -Advantage: if enemy never pushes or gets up ramp then you'll be at a tech advantage, this can lead to many other strategies OR enemy pushes up ramp but you do an amazing FF to split army and pick off a few units thus weakening whole push. Once your next round of units come out you just have to clean up. -Draw: you made enough units out of 2 gates (or cannon?) to hold off the push, now you have same tech as opponent and it's time to move to next phase of your gameplan. -Disadvantage: you mess up ff at ramp and they come in and do heavy damage or just kill you off cuz you spent all your early resources on tech. .
How about teching fast so i wont die to banshees? If one doesnt get that obs fast then i am blind and blind to a cloaked banshee in a few seconds. So in fact one must guess that the opponent is doing early agression and not banshee with what? Tell me how can one scout if T has a marine at the ramp or has hidden another rax. And with this comes the problem of having to go robo and being reactive till i can get the obs + immortals.
On November 05 2010 10:09 david0925 wrote: misplaced Forcefield= almost loss or loss.
Sure, but at the same time, excellent forcefields = the other army being devastated.
How many times have you seen a Protoss army finish a battle with at least half their forces still standing because they completely cut the opposition in half with forcefields? I've seen this plenty of times. I was watching iccup KOTH the other day and saw a maxed Terran army shat all over because the P forcefielded brilliantly.
They can be ridiculously overpowered and quite bad depending on how good the player behind the P army is.
In early game, this is kinda the only way how protoss can stand a chance against other races' army. In mid-game, I agree that a player's skill plays an important role but honestly, I don't remember the last time when I was amazed by a player's force-field placement in a game. Honestly, if it is a skill that can be mastered, people will already start using it amazingly. Plus, when going to mid-game, it is not easy to afford sentries as protoss need high tech unit to not suck and high tech units cost tons of gas =(
On November 05 2010 10:20 Sniffy wrote: How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop.
Like half the people in this thread are saying, just something about detection so we can open with stargate/TC without it being considered all in.
EPT
