well, everyone who says it all comes down to warpprism use is a noob imo and is jsut searching for excuses. just imagine, like in the oldspice commercial. hi noobies,
now look at a 4 stalker drop now look at a 4 blue hellion drop now back to the stalkers now back to the hellions sadly the stalkers arent the hellions but they could at least act like they were doing damage if they dressed like a marauder look at your base, back at your enemy. wheres your drop? Its gone with the stalkers that at least looked like marauders whats in your head? i have it! its rage! your rank now WAS diamond. well, everything was possible if you were terran and not a protoss i´m underpowered
On November 05 2010 01:19 Durp wrote: The reason is twofold- skill and some semblance of balance. Before you flame, I do NOT mean I think its imba.
Firstly, nexgenius won blizzcon and still isn't anywhere near the level of the top gamers. SSKS on the other hand is. Look through the vP wins, most players later in the tournament tell you they train with him. When you train with the best protoss, you will beat lesser ones.
With that being said, the second problem is protoss predictability. There are not very many viable openings, as too many toss openers leave you vulnerable to glaring matchup flaws (large map T drop harass comes to mind).
One of three things will happen 1. Someone will come up with a new safe early opener for protoss and the entire problem is solved (imagine as T not automatically knowing no FE and no 4gate equals 2gaterobo?) 2. This will continue for a few more weeks of protoss imba rage, and blizzard will make an unnecessary patch 3. sSKS comes back to qualify for GSL3 and finally puts this senseless argument to rest.
For the record, I main protoss. Its not imbalanced, we just still suck.
What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? Cause i really dont see any protoss pros doing anything different than what we are all doing. And i am sure that all protoss are trying hard to come up with good different opennings but like the zerg a few patches ago it is very difficult to do so.
What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them.
Sorry, but you're being incredibly biased and ignorant. We saw how "good" ITR is today, he plays crap but still manages to beat best protoss with ease.
ITR played 11 series in the GSL. He lost 2, one to the champion, and one to at least the runner up (who also beat last seasons champion). Hate to break it to you but the only ignorance here is to assume itr's losses today are any reflection on his skill, and not a complete reflection of FoxeR's. ITR has been the most consistant player in the gsl. To question that is the height of ignorance
if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there.
Wow.... I don't know if you're serious or not... Do you know the amount of time needed to get to templar tech as well as the resource needed?
Just a question (I play Z myself so not too knowledgeable on PvT) but don't chargelots do well against MMM and transition beautifully into templar?
Is holding off on 1/2 base (depending on pressure) into chargelots a valid way to get to 3+bases ? As I understand it if the Protoss gets to 3+bases the game is essentially won.
I understand MMM is painful to deal with but it seems to me like chargelot with some sentries (because you have gas) should do pretty well, especially with the tank nerf so even if there are tanks they won't ruin your zealots too much.
Chargelots are pretty good semi-early if the Terran goes a certain tech/attack path. But there is always the looming banshee. One cloaked banshee could auto-win vs a quick tech to charge. Which brings us back to, unless you have a way to break through Terran defense early and kill him before a cloaked banshee kills you, then you better go ahead and get an observer. In which case, you don't have gas for all that tech off one base.
[edit: rereading your question... I think the problem is getting to 2nd base vs an aggressive Terran. If you are even economically with Terran... safe on two bases well into late midgame and trying to get a third, then I don't think the imba arguments come into play so much. I think it's fairly well accepted that against certain Terran builds you can fast expand (popular in US vs. passive Terrans)... but Korean Terrans know this and so have proven that the early game can be the place to put Protoss on extreme defense and/or death so that fast expands are extremely risky. ]
On November 05 2010 01:19 Durp wrote: The reason is twofold- skill and some semblance of balance. Before you flame, I do NOT mean I think its imba.
Firstly, nexgenius won blizzcon and still isn't anywhere near the level of the top gamers. SSKS on the other hand is. Look through the vP wins, most players later in the tournament tell you they train with him. When you train with the best protoss, you will beat lesser ones.
With that being said, the second problem is protoss predictability. There are not very many viable openings, as too many toss openers leave you vulnerable to glaring matchup flaws (large map T drop harass comes to mind).
One of three things will happen 1. Someone will come up with a new safe early opener for protoss and the entire problem is solved (imagine as T not automatically knowing no FE and no 4gate equals 2gaterobo?) 2. This will continue for a few more weeks of protoss imba rage, and blizzard will make an unnecessary patch 3. sSKS comes back to qualify for GSL3 and finally puts this senseless argument to rest.
For the record, I main protoss. Its not imbalanced, we just still suck.
What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? Cause i really dont see any protoss pros doing anything different than what we are all doing. And i am sure that all protoss are trying hard to come up with good different opennings but like the zerg a few patches ago it is very difficult to do so.
What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them.
Sorry, but you're being incredibly biased and ignorant. We saw how "good" ITR is today, he plays crap but still manages to beat best protoss with ease.
ITR played 11 series in the GSL. He lost 2, one to the champion, and one to at least the runner up (who also beat last seasons champion). Hate to break it to you but the only ignorance here is to assume itr's losses today are any reflection on his skill, and not a complete reflection of FoxeR's. ITR has been the most consistant player in the gsl. To question that is the height of ignorance
You are looking into his achievements but completely ignore his games. His play level was very low today, he doesn't know how to respond adequately to opponents moves. Even in NexGenious series he got 2 wins just because of build order luck which he admitted in his interview. Cloaked banshee and Thor, there was no skill involved. As far as I know he abuses "wall-off then surprise" strategies to maximum whereas players like NaDa or Foxer rely on great macro and intense micro games. I agree that NaDa/Foxer better than most of protoss players, but ITR is not that good.
On November 05 2010 04:54 ensis wrote: well, everyone who says it all comes down to warpprism use is a noob imo and is jsut searching for excuses. just imagine, like in the oldspice commercial. hi noobies,
now look at a 4 stalker drop now look at a 4 blue hellion drop now back to the stalkers now back to the hellions sadly the stalkers arent the hellions but they could at least act like they were doing damage if they dressed like a marauder look at your base, back at your enemy. wheres your drop? Its gone with the stalkers that at least looked like marauders whats in your head? i have it! its rage! your rank now WAS diamond. well, everything was possible if you were terran and not a protoss i´m underpowered
now picture a game now picture the game as an RTS with asymmetrical races now see the definition of asymmetrical as being not identical you realize that the game you're playing has asymmetrical races what's the game? it's starcraft you post about this game now back to your post now look at how the post compares different races with different units now look at how you compare a same strategy with different units and different races you've got it! now you realize that the post was actually a fail what's going through your head? but at least Old Spice Guy is awesome I wish I was Old Spice Guy maybe I am the Old Spice Guy
if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there.
Wow.... I don't know if you're serious or not... Do you know the amount of time needed to get to templar tech as well as the resource needed?
Just a question (I play Z myself so not too knowledgeable on PvT) but don't chargelots do well against MMM and transition beautifully into templar?
Is holding off on 1/2 base (depending on pressure) into chargelots a valid way to get to 3+bases ? As I understand it if the Protoss gets to 3+bases the game is essentially won.
I understand MMM is painful to deal with but it seems to me like chargelot with some sentries (because you have gas) should do pretty well, especially with the tank nerf so even if there are tanks they won't ruin your zealots too much.
Theorycrafting this build certainly makes sense against marines and marauders but it rarely works in actual games. It leaves you vulnerable to banshees and you have literally no way to scout. If the terran loads up in medivacs and does drops you have extremely slow to react zealots and even if zealots reach the drop they can just load up and float away unharmed.
Players with good micro like we saw last night from Foxer will just kite your chargelots. Sure they will do their cutesy charge move, but then the terran stims, micros away, slows you with concussive shells, charge is on cooldown, and gg. Great forcefields would help but templar tech is some serious gas, 100 for twilight, 200 for charge, 200 for archives, 200 for storm, 150 for amulet, and 150 per templar.
Most protoss players sucks in GSL, I don't know if it's pressure or what, they just play terribly. When itr killer tester, tester hadn't missed a single forcefield so far in the tournament. That day his forcefeild were useless and misplaced (perhaps because itr microed well, dunno), but still.
When foxer killed sangho, sangho made a very risky build whith a lot of sentries so he can hold his ramp for a very long time....then he goes afk or i don't know and just let foxer move up the ramp like he's a bronze player altought he has enough energy for like 6 ff.
When itr killed genius, genius only used his standard build once. And it was the one time that itr used a build that perfectly counter this (thor rush). In the last game, he doesn't scout an attack (wtf already) then go in pursuit mode accross the map until itr reinforce and make a nice concave against his ball. wtf was that ?
We can't really make conclusions when those high level protosses do noob mistakes each time they have a hard match.
On November 05 2010 04:47 Durp wrote: Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level.
But, you cannot micro Protoss units to beat other units they do not counter. You can only beat the other player by having more stuff than him, which fortunately, if you live long enough, you can do that.
On November 05 2010 05:10 ReiKo wrote: For the Protoss... I can't belive how hard is to FE PvZ with Roach range increased..
Honestly, i can still pull off 15 nex easily on maps with small chokes (i.e. lost temple, mabye blistering) maps with larger chokes, such as metal or xel naga, a protoss FE is nearly impossible. This is at high lv diamond.
Most protoss players sucks in GSL, I don't know if it's pressure or what, they just play terribly. When itr killer tester, tester hadn't missed a single forcefield so far in the tournament. That day his forcefeild were useless and misplaced (perhaps because itr microed well, dunno), but still.
When foxer killed sangho, sangho made a very risky build whith a lot of sentries so he can hold his ramp for a very long time....then he goes afk or i don't know and just let foxer move up the ramp like he's a bronze player altought he has enough energy for like 6 ff.
When itr killed genius, genius only used his standard build once. And it was the one time that itr used a build that perfectly counter this (thor rush). In the last game, he doesn't scout an attack (wtf already) then go in pursuit mode accross the map until itr reinforce and make a nice concave against his ball. wtf was that ?
We can't really make conclusions when those high level protosses do noob mistakes each time they have a hard match
First, everyone make mistakes. The problem that most protoss discusses is the fact that one mistake for protoss is far more punishing than the mistake of other races.
Second, the build of Sang-ho is SUPER safe. It sacrifices offensive power for a more solid defense. The build is designed to hold off the Terran long enough for protoss to macro up. Unfortunately, one mistake made him gg.
The fact that you are saying all protoss players are bad is maybe a hint that something might be broken. This is like when zergs were UP, other races just told them to l2p.
On November 05 2010 05:10 ReiKo wrote: For the Protoss... I can't belive how hard is to FE PvZ with Roach range increased..
Honestly, i can still pull off 15 nex easily on maps with small chokes (i.e. lost temple, mabye blistering) maps with larger chokes, such as metal or xel naga, a protoss FE is nearly impossible. This is at high lv diamond.
I don't think 15nexus would work vs someone that was a top zerg, kyrix would eat it alive.
I don't think 15nexus would work vs someone that was a top zerg, kyrix would eat it alive.
i agree. thats what i hate in the roach buff - its nearly impossible to fe vs a good, offensive zerg.
Honestly, i can still pull off 15 nex easily on maps with small chokes (i.e. lost temple, mabye blistering) maps with larger chokes, such as metal or xel naga, a protoss FE is nearly impossible. This is at high lv diamond.
i tend to use this build quite often too, however any decent, offensive zerg will rape me even on LT (best map for FE). blistering or shakuras is much harder to expand safely cuz of backdoor
Most protoss players sucks in GSL, I don't know if it's pressure or what, they just play terribly. When itr killer tester, tester hadn't missed a single forcefield so far in the tournament. That day his forcefeild were useless and misplaced (perhaps because itr microed well, dunno), but still.
When foxer killed sangho, sangho made a very risky build whith a lot of sentries so he can hold his ramp for a very long time....then he goes afk or i don't know and just let foxer move up the ramp like he's a bronze player altought he has enough energy for like 6 ff.
When itr killed genius, genius only used his standard build once. And it was the one time that itr used a build that perfectly counter this (thor rush). In the last game, he doesn't scout an attack (wtf already) then go in pursuit mode accross the map until itr reinforce and make a nice concave against his ball. wtf was that ?
We can't really make conclusions when those high level protosses do noob mistakes each time they have a hard match
First, everyone make mistakes. The problem that most protoss discusses is the fact that one mistake for protoss is far more punishing than the mistake of other races.
Second, the build of Sang-ho is SUPER safe. It sacrifices offensive power for a more solid defense. The build is designed to hold off the Terran long enough for protoss to macro up. Unfortunately, one mistake made him gg.
The fact that you are saying all protoss players are bad is maybe a hint that something might be broken. This is like when zergs were UP, other races just told them to l2p.
I agree completely, it is like when zergs were UP. And then a Zerg won GSL. This is not a race problem, it's a player problem. As the level of Protoss play gets better, so will the showing of the Toss. In my opinion, all that GSL season 2 has shown is how easy it is to play Terran, how low the ZvZ quality is compared to all other match ups, and most importantly: years of having to deal with 500 apm, no mbs, no auto mine, maximum unit grouping, and not being able to scout your opponent's BO's on battlenet will put you miles ahead of your competition, regardless of how much more practice they have.
Most protoss players sucks in GSL, I don't know if it's pressure or what, they just play terribly. When itr killer tester, tester hadn't missed a single forcefield so far in the tournament. That day his forcefeild were useless and misplaced (perhaps because itr microed well, dunno), but still.
When foxer killed sangho, sangho made a very risky build whith a lot of sentries so he can hold his ramp for a very long time....then he goes afk or i don't know and just let foxer move up the ramp like he's a bronze player altought he has enough energy for like 6 ff.
When itr killed genius, genius only used his standard build once. And it was the one time that itr used a build that perfectly counter this (thor rush). In the last game, he doesn't scout an attack (wtf already) then go in pursuit mode accross the map until itr reinforce and make a nice concave against his ball. wtf was that ?
We can't really make conclusions when those high level protosses do noob mistakes each time they have a hard match
First, everyone make mistakes. The problem that most protoss discusses is the fact that one mistake for protoss is far more punishing than the mistake of other races.
Second, the build of Sang-ho is SUPER safe. It sacrifices offensive power for a more solid defense. The build is designed to hold off the Terran long enough for protoss to macro up. Unfortunately, one mistake made him gg.
The fact that you are saying all protoss players are bad is maybe a hint that something might be broken. This is like when zergs were UP, other races just told them to l2p.
I agree completely, it is like when zergs were UP. And then a Zerg won GSL. This is not a race problem, it's a player problem. As the level of Protoss play gets better, so will the showing of the Toss. In my opinion, all that GSL season 2 has shown is how easy it is to play Terran, how low the ZvZ quality is compared to all other match ups, and most importantly: years of having to deal with 500 apm, no mbs, no auto mine, maximum unit grouping, and not being able to scout your opponent's BO's on battlenet will put you miles ahead of your competition, regardless of how much more practice they have.
Where in the laws of the universe does it say that player quality problems and race up quality have to be mutually exclusive.
The Protoss players playing right now pale in comparison to the reputation of terran players. This is a legit point.
Protoss being locked into 1 tech path in some of their matchups to be "safe" being a problem is also a legit point.
Overall player quality coupled with the strategical rigidity of the race is a plausible explanation.
PvZ is one of the only matchups exciting to watch that involves Protoss, as in this matchup both races actually have options. PvP is usually colossus wars or some other 1 base all in, PvT is hovering in the area is colossus vs viking, then templar vs a bio ball, with very little variation.
Then again, Protoss has not really had a need to adjust their strats since end of beta, as they have kept working. Only recently has there been any problem what so ever. Maybe we will see some more interesting stuff in GSL3 as people (hopefully) start experimenting more.
Most protoss players sucks in GSL, I don't know if it's pressure or what, they just play terribly. When itr killer tester, tester hadn't missed a single forcefield so far in the tournament. That day his forcefeild were useless and misplaced (perhaps because itr microed well, dunno), but still.
When foxer killed sangho, sangho made a very risky build whith a lot of sentries so he can hold his ramp for a very long time....then he goes afk or i don't know and just let foxer move up the ramp like he's a bronze player altought he has enough energy for like 6 ff.
When itr killed genius, genius only used his standard build once. And it was the one time that itr used a build that perfectly counter this (thor rush). In the last game, he doesn't scout an attack (wtf already) then go in pursuit mode accross the map until itr reinforce and make a nice concave against his ball. wtf was that ?
We can't really make conclusions when those high level protosses do noob mistakes each time they have a hard match
First, everyone make mistakes. The problem that most protoss discusses is the fact that one mistake for protoss is far more punishing than the mistake of other races.
Second, the build of Sang-ho is SUPER safe. It sacrifices offensive power for a more solid defense. The build is designed to hold off the Terran long enough for protoss to macro up. Unfortunately, one mistake made him gg.
The fact that you are saying all protoss players are bad is maybe a hint that something might be broken. This is like when zergs were UP, other races just told them to l2p.
I agree completely, it is like when zergs were UP. And then a Zerg won GSL. This is not a race problem, it's a player problem. As the level of Protoss play gets better, so will the showing of the Toss. In my opinion, all that GSL season 2 has shown is how easy it is to play Terran, how low the ZvZ quality is compared to all other match ups, and most importantly: years of having to deal with 500 apm, no mbs, no auto mine, maximum unit grouping, and not being able to scout your opponent's BO's on battlenet will put you miles ahead of your competition, regardless of how much more practice they have.
I don't know what you're getting at with your last point, but Tester and Sangho at least were both perennial Proleague threats in BW. Also, most BW pros never averaged 500 apm (the main one who comes to mind is by.hero, who was touted as a rookie on fire for a short while and then never delivered), not even the most successful ones. NaDa's 400 is actually still unusually high.
Anyways, I think the chrono boost argument I saw earlier in this thread is very persuasive. One tweak I considered was reducing its energy cost in order to bring Protoss timings closer to the "balanced" timings by allowing more tech and production to be boosted at a time (since that's the state balancers must assume in order for certain boosted builds to not be abusive.) It would make Protoss more difficult to play optimally because boosting every 10 seconds may be demanding, but at least we can laugh more when competitors bank energy.
I'd also enjoy more effective harass options for Protoss ala BW Reavers, since harass-centric play was one of the most enjoyable styles to play or spectate in BW. But that's just my little pipe dream; if any of Protoss' current aoe options were buffed enough to effectively kill worker lines, they would be ridiculously effective in normal combat as well.
I would be against any chrono boost energy change or behavior change on the nexus, because it would make it better than Mule. Right now it is surprisingly balanced.
What I would like is to see a way for Protoss to sacrifice economy for tech. Right now this isn't really possible. Not only do the upgrades take a long time, but most tech is delivered through buildings so you can't chrono boost it. Dark Templar ? Not a single upgrade. The best you can do is 9 pylon 10 gate, but the gas requirements for protoss tech are so high, it turns out you won't actually have enough gas and you should've just got a 12 gate w/ early gas and chronoboosted your probes.
Out of probably the top 4 protoss (sangho/genius/ssks/ogsjmc):
sangho lost cause he forgot a FF tester got knocked out by banshee so I can only assume he was trying non-standard(non-robo) builds ogsjmc tried to all in genius tried gimmicky stuff 3 of 4 games and caught a BO loss when he tried standard play the other
So I'd say as far as GSL showings, it was a player issue. That isn't to say toss doesn't have issues. The extreme dichotomy between a good FF and a mediocre FF is too big and early game scouting is an issue. As well as conc shells making maras hard counter every gateway unit.
Suggestions imo:
Obs builds from nexus and requires core. (Maybe make it cheaper but no cloak and make cloak an upgrade from Robo so you can use it like an ovie early game.)
Increase offensive power of sentry. (That way they can actually help in a battle even if you screw an FF up. My thought was perhaps extra damage to light units since stalker has +armored already.)
Split zealot charge into charge and leg speed. Leg speed comes from core while charge stays on council. Just work cost and build time out. Obviously they wouldn't both be 200/200. (Would help with kiting but delays your warpgate research as a cost.)
I also think DTs should just be on archives and storm should be baseline but that might be too radical. (Dark shrine is just a dumb idea and every other caster gets their main spell baseline, and at t2 no less.)
hey im only gold level so i dont have much to say on the whole race imba QQ that is literally everywhere but i do play random alot and i find that protoss really isnt that Underpowered at my level and that yes the warp prism is kinda weak but man it sure is affective with some units and a full round of warp ins when you get to your opponents base. however in scanning through this thread i really need to quote someone who made me laugh and say "yup thats so true"
now picture a game now picture the game as an RTS with asymmetrical races now see the definition of asymmetrical as being not identical you realize that the game you're playing has asymmetrical races what's the game? it's starcraft you post about this game now back to your post now look at how the post compares different races with different units now look at how you compare a same strategy with different units and different races you've got it! now you realize that the post was actually a fail what's going through your head? but at least Old Spice Guy is awesome I wish I was Old Spice Guy maybe I am the Old Spice Guy
EPT
