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On November 05 2010 10:33 leveller wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:20 Sniffy wrote:
How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop. Like half the people in this thread are saying, just something about detection so we can open with stargate/TC without it being considered all in.
I wasnt gonna read through 52 pages 
Well I guess thats fair enough. I figured people were thinking some sort of buff to gateway units or something. Im guessing this is because you dont want to be forced into an early Robo against T?
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On November 05 2010 10:35 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:33 leveller wrote:On November 05 2010 10:20 Sniffy wrote:
How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop. Like half the people in this thread are saying, just something about detection so we can open with stargate/TC without it being considered all in. I wasnt gonna read through 52 pages Well I guess thats fair enough. I figured people were thinking some sort of buff to gateway units or something. Im guessing this is because you dont want to be forced into an early Robo against T?
Sorry for my tone, it was unnecary, and certainly some people are asking for buffs for all kinds of units. But mostly the concensus here is, that yes agains Terran, we are forced into very predictable gameplay and techpatterns unless we are just crossing our fingers.
And I agree that buffing any unit, especially gate way units, will just destroy the lower leagues.
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On November 05 2010 10:39 leveller wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:35 Sniffy wrote:On November 05 2010 10:33 leveller wrote:On November 05 2010 10:20 Sniffy wrote:
How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop. Like half the people in this thread are saying, just something about detection so we can open with stargate/TC without it being considered all in. I wasnt gonna read through 52 pages Well I guess thats fair enough. I figured people were thinking some sort of buff to gateway units or something. Im guessing this is because you dont want to be forced into an early Robo against T? Sorry for my tone, it was unnecary, and certainly some people are asking for buffs for all kinds of units. But mostly the concensus here is, that yes agains Terran, we are forced into very predictable gameplay and techpatterns unless we are just crossing our fingers. And I agree that buffing any unit, especially gate way units, will just destroy the lower leagues.
What sucks is that terran is also kinda forced to play mass Bio. Both T and P are forced into certain play by each other. -_- Which sucks. I'd love to go mech but Protoss wreck my mech. Not only that but they have a million ways to do it-_- Which is REALLY GAY.
TvP is just really messed up right now. And so boring to watch.
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I think the maps are to blame here. The rush distances are too short. If the distance was longer it would give the protoss more time to maybe open with SG and do some harassment, and then get Robo in case of Banshee. On the topic of FF, while one wrong FF can mean gg, a good FF can mean victory.
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On November 05 2010 11:10 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:39 leveller wrote:On November 05 2010 10:35 Sniffy wrote:On November 05 2010 10:33 leveller wrote:On November 05 2010 10:20 Sniffy wrote:
How can you buff Toss without making them absurd at every other level. I'm mid Diamond (not saying Im good, im horrible) but Stalker/Zealot/Colossus balls are almost unstoppable.
Not to mention the lower leagues are plagued by nonstop 4gating. How do you make them better without making them ridiculous at every level BUT gsl?
If you can do that then I'm all for it, but as a Zerg protoss feel incredibly strong. Phoenix harrass into Colossus is so crippling it almost feels hopeless if the P does it correctly. By teching hydras I am both ensuring my survival for 5 minutes and signing my death warrant at the exact same time. Corruptors are impossible to tech that early on with Queens and OL's being sniped nonstop. Like half the people in this thread are saying, just something about detection so we can open with stargate/TC without it being considered all in. I wasnt gonna read through 52 pages Well I guess thats fair enough. I figured people were thinking some sort of buff to gateway units or something. Im guessing this is because you dont want to be forced into an early Robo against T? Sorry for my tone, it was unnecary, and certainly some people are asking for buffs for all kinds of units. But mostly the concensus here is, that yes agains Terran, we are forced into very predictable gameplay and techpatterns unless we are just crossing our fingers. And I agree that buffing any unit, especially gate way units, will just destroy the lower leagues. What sucks is that terran is also kinda forced to play mass Bio. Both T and P are forced into certain play by each other. -_- Which sucks. I'd love to go mech but Protoss wreck my mech. Not only that but they have a million ways to do it-_- Which is REALLY GAY. TvP is just really messed up right now. And so boring to watch.
You know, I cant remember the last time I saw a tank... Wow.
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On November 05 2010 10:29 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 09:52 Mintastic wrote:On November 05 2010 08:14 STenSatsu wrote:
sangho lost cause he forgot a FF
This is a bit too much generalization that make it sound like doing a certain thing (i.e missing a FF or doing all-in) instantly would cause Protoss to lose. How about we analyze the entire game instead? -SangHo v (fake)BoxeR game 1: [...] SangHo made 2 gateways (+ core) then robo, making only one zealot and 2 sentries. -Sacrifice: weak early army so no aggression possible, flimsy defense reliant on sentry FF -Gain: getting faster tech in order to get robotics (possibly for faster colossi for a stronger midgame army? didn't get to see his plan) -Advantage: if enemy never pushes or gets up ramp then you'll be at a tech advantage, this can lead to many other strategies OR enemy pushes up ramp but you do an amazing FF to split army and pick off a few units thus weakening whole push. Once your next round of units come out you just have to clean up. -Draw: you made enough units out of 2 gates (or cannon?) to hold off the push, now you have same tech as opponent and it's time to move to next phase of your gameplan. -Disadvantage: you mess up ff at ramp and they come in and do heavy damage or just kill you off cuz you spent all your early resources on tech. . How about teching fast so i wont die to banshees? If one doesnt get that obs fast then i am blind and blind to a cloaked banshee in a few seconds. So in fact one must guess that the opponent is doing early agression and not banshee with what? Tell me how can one scout if T has a marine at the ramp or has hidden another rax. And with this comes the problem of having to go robo and being reactive till i can get the obs + immortals.
That's kind of the risk isn't it? You're fast teching to counter terran fast tech to Banshees but leaving yourself weaker to early aggression. In the meanwhile fast teching to Banshees leaves you weaker to early aggression. My summary wasn't to show imbalance or anything but to try to prove that you can't generalize the whole game as "if FF sucks I die" for any type of scenario when there were alot of factors going into that point.
I don't play protoss as my primary but based on watching protoss streams/pros I'd probably do the following based on theorycrafting (especially since I won't be confident about my FF):
- Do fast tech to robo like SangHo but with first early zealot poke into Terran ramp. At this point he won't have marauders with conc shell or enough marines to kill zealot outright so he will easily survive a quick poke and run away with shields recharging.
- If I see bunkers then I assume he might go fast tech or expand because he wasted money to get defenses and continue with my plan for defending banshee until I scout an expansion. If no bunkers or wall-in then run in and try to scout out base to find either another barracks, factory, or just keep him alive long enough to see if it's early CC (I probably let it die in this case hoping to get marine or scv kills). If it's just a wall-in and I didn't see the factory then it's I have to either take a guess or play it safe. I will probably play it safe with the following.
- I leave a probe a bit past the ramp to see if they're pushing out and with what. In the meanwhile I delay robo a bit and get a few stalkers OR I make a forge (if I'm really scared and dont trust my micro) and maybe a few stalkers whenever I have the resources while still making that robo.
- If they push out with early aggression at this point (i.e FoxeR's timing) I make more stalkers/zealots if I decided to try to defend with units. If I pussied out and made forge, I make cannons (at ramp if it's long rush distance or at a good spot in my base to defend probes/buildings) and hope I can hold out the attack since I reinforce faster. (make an immortal at this point of course since you dont need obs)
- If no early aggression then I survived and scout with newly made obs and see what I need to do next. If they had banshees they'd attack before obs is done (but no cloak) so I'd have to defend with whatever stalkers I had. If I went forge then I'd have to defend with stalkers and warp in more, and hopefully push it out while I make 2 cannons to defend mineral line. (I think forge idea is probably bad for higher level) I'd probably avoid sending out obs right away if I never see terran doing anything in case they waited for 2 banshees plus cloak. My probe in front will tell me if they push out with ground army or move to expand anyways.
This is probably not optimal but it feels safer than depending on my FF micro. I would probably die to 3 rax all-in or something but there's no build that's 100% safe against everything so I'll have to take my chances.
So... here's a thought, get a terran friend and have him do a fast banshee every time and see if your build stops it. Then have him do BoxeR's strategy (assume you didnt scout second rax) and see if it survives too. If not, see if there's a viable way to modify it to handle both without depending on perfect FF.
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Actually I'm not sure how this thread went all about PvT balance talk. There were plenty of Zergs that knocked out Protoss players too, yet it's all Terran's fault.
SC2 balance talks are imbalanced 
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On November 05 2010 11:44 Mintastic wrote:Actually I'm not sure how this thread went all about PvT balance talk. There were plenty of Zergs that knocked out Protoss players too, yet it's all Terran's fault. SC2 balance talks are imbalanced
Yeah their so Zerg Favored
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in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp
the banshee and the immortal.
the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it.
meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss.
then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play.
and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again.
so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change.
sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait 
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On November 05 2010 11:38 Mintastic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:29 Hellye wrote:On November 05 2010 09:52 Mintastic wrote:On November 05 2010 08:14 STenSatsu wrote:
sangho lost cause he forgot a FF
This is a bit too much generalization that make it sound like doing a certain thing (i.e missing a FF or doing all-in) instantly would cause Protoss to lose. How about we analyze the entire game instead? -SangHo v (fake)BoxeR game 1: [...] SangHo made 2 gateways (+ core) then robo, making only one zealot and 2 sentries. -Sacrifice: weak early army so no aggression possible, flimsy defense reliant on sentry FF -Gain: getting faster tech in order to get robotics (possibly for faster colossi for a stronger midgame army? didn't get to see his plan) -Advantage: if enemy never pushes or gets up ramp then you'll be at a tech advantage, this can lead to many other strategies OR enemy pushes up ramp but you do an amazing FF to split army and pick off a few units thus weakening whole push. Once your next round of units come out you just have to clean up. -Draw: you made enough units out of 2 gates (or cannon?) to hold off the push, now you have same tech as opponent and it's time to move to next phase of your gameplan. -Disadvantage: you mess up ff at ramp and they come in and do heavy damage or just kill you off cuz you spent all your early resources on tech. . How about teching fast so i wont die to banshees? If one doesnt get that obs fast then i am blind and blind to a cloaked banshee in a few seconds. So in fact one must guess that the opponent is doing early agression and not banshee with what? Tell me how can one scout if T has a marine at the ramp or has hidden another rax. And with this comes the problem of having to go robo and being reactive till i can get the obs + immortals. That's kind of the risk isn't it? You're fast teching to counter terran fast tech to Banshees but leaving yourself weaker to early aggression. In the meanwhile fast teching to Banshees leaves you weaker to early aggression. My summary wasn't to show imbalance or anything but to try to prove that you can't generalize the whole game as "if FF sucks I die" for any type of scenario when there were alot of factors going into that point. I don't play protoss as my primary but based on watching protoss streams/pros I'd probably do the following based on theorycrafting (especially since I won't be confident about my FF): - Do fast tech to robo like SangHo but with first early zealot poke into Terran ramp. At this point he won't have marauders with conc shell or enough marines to kill zealot outright so he will easily survive a quick poke and run away with shields recharging. - If I see bunkers then I assume he might go fast tech or expand because he wasted money to get defenses and continue with my plan for defending banshee until I scout an expansion. If no bunkers or wall-in then run in and try to scout out base to find either another barracks, factory, or just keep him alive long enough to see if it's early CC (I probably let it die in this case hoping to get marine or scv kills). If it's just a wall-in and I didn't see the factory then it's I have to either take a guess or play it safe. I will probably play it safe with the following. - I leave a probe a bit past the ramp to see if they're pushing out and with what. In the meanwhile I delay robo a bit and get a few stalkers OR I make a forge (if I'm really scared and dont trust my micro) and maybe a few stalkers whenever I have the resources while still making that robo. - If they push out with early aggression at this point (i.e FoxeR's timing) I make more stalkers/zealots if I decided to try to defend with units. If I pussied out and made forge, I make cannons (at ramp if it's long rush distance or at a good spot in my base to defend probes/buildings) and hope I can hold out the attack since I reinforce faster. (make an immortal at this point of course since you dont need obs) - If no early aggression then I survived and scout with newly made obs and see what I need to do next. If they had banshees they'd attack before obs is done (but no cloak) so I'd have to defend with whatever stalkers I had. If I went forge then I'd have to defend with stalkers and warp in more, and hopefully push it out while I make 2 cannons to defend mineral line. (I think forge idea is probably bad for higher level) I'd probably avoid sending out obs right away if I never see terran doing anything in case they waited for 2 banshees plus cloak. My probe in front will tell me if they push out with ground army or move to expand anyways. This is probably not optimal but it feels safer than depending on my FF micro. I would probably die to 3 rax all-in or something but there's no build that's 100% safe against everything so I'll have to take my chances. So... here's a thought, get a terran friend and have him do a fast banshee every time and see if your build stops it. Then have him do BoxeR's strategy (assume you didnt scout second rax) and see if it survives too. If not, see if there's a viable way to modify it to handle both without depending on perfect FF.
Again we see the problem... We need that robo... its ridiculous how predictable protoss is. And on top of that protoss is the only race with a risk opening. Zerg and Terran dont have this risk. Thats because they have the map control and tier 1 units to feel safe. Thats why T and Z can FE so easy while P cant. The imbalance here is that forced tech and the lack of early scouting, not that we have the worse tier 1 ( cause that can be a good game design choice ). A great component of RTS is scouting and if one race has to play blind then it wont be as strong as the others. On the other hand if you know what the opponnent will do every game without even commiting resources to scouting then it is clearly a bad design choice and needs to be fixed.
And dont tell me players are playing bad and that we need to start using different units like the warp prism cause that is ridiculous.By the time you can use the wp the game is already fairly stable. It is before when u HAVE to open robo and HAVE to decide on the first immortal/obs completly blind that is ruining this otherwise wonderfully balanced game ( except ofc stimmed marines ).
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On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait
Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables.
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= Thor
Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.
DT- Raven/Scans
All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
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On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait
You can't lead a protoss army with immortals into a terran, first off tanks outrange the protoss army pretty much, second off tanks are never in front of the terran army, the immortal has to go through marine/marauder and marines are great vs immortals.
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and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again.
This, except protoss has fewer surprising openings that would actually both surprise the opponent and allow them to switch tech later without being behind. The fact that protoss relies heavily on obs to scout makes protoss very predictable in almost every MU, especially PvT.
You see Z can either go Mutas+lings or roach/lings/hydra combo vs toss. Now if our obs comes to their base and we see roaches, we can maybe breathe a sigh of relief and start pumping immortals (and tech into collo later) but what if we see Spire???? Our robo building is as good as done for for the rest of the game.
TvP is a bit different as we can see T kinda have to stick w bio but because of banshee P have to open w a robo thus rendering them completely predictable too. And ultimately, robo units are not that great vs bio ball (esp marauders/vikings combo) unless you can mass 5+ Collo at which stage, you should have won the game already.
So there we go, I think the problem w Protoss is not with any particular units, rather the inability to scout without having to commit to a specific tech tree.
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We should be able to hallucinate an Observer. That would open up the tech paths.
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On November 05 2010 12:03 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 11:38 Mintastic wrote:On November 05 2010 10:29 Hellye wrote:On November 05 2010 09:52 Mintastic wrote:On November 05 2010 08:14 STenSatsu wrote:
sangho lost cause he forgot a FF
This is a bit too much generalization that make it sound like doing a certain thing (i.e missing a FF or doing all-in) instantly would cause Protoss to lose. How about we analyze the entire game instead? -SangHo v (fake)BoxeR game 1: [...] SangHo made 2 gateways (+ core) then robo, making only one zealot and 2 sentries. -Sacrifice: weak early army so no aggression possible, flimsy defense reliant on sentry FF -Gain: getting faster tech in order to get robotics (possibly for faster colossi for a stronger midgame army? didn't get to see his plan) -Advantage: if enemy never pushes or gets up ramp then you'll be at a tech advantage, this can lead to many other strategies OR enemy pushes up ramp but you do an amazing FF to split army and pick off a few units thus weakening whole push. Once your next round of units come out you just have to clean up. -Draw: you made enough units out of 2 gates (or cannon?) to hold off the push, now you have same tech as opponent and it's time to move to next phase of your gameplan. -Disadvantage: you mess up ff at ramp and they come in and do heavy damage or just kill you off cuz you spent all your early resources on tech. . How about teching fast so i wont die to banshees? If one doesnt get that obs fast then i am blind and blind to a cloaked banshee in a few seconds. So in fact one must guess that the opponent is doing early agression and not banshee with what? Tell me how can one scout if T has a marine at the ramp or has hidden another rax. And with this comes the problem of having to go robo and being reactive till i can get the obs + immortals. That's kind of the risk isn't it? You're fast teching to counter terran fast tech to Banshees but leaving yourself weaker to early aggression. In the meanwhile fast teching to Banshees leaves you weaker to early aggression. My summary wasn't to show imbalance or anything but to try to prove that you can't generalize the whole game as "if FF sucks I die" for any type of scenario when there were alot of factors going into that point. I don't play protoss as my primary but based on watching protoss streams/pros I'd probably do the following based on theorycrafting (especially since I won't be confident about my FF): - Do fast tech to robo like SangHo but with first early zealot poke into Terran ramp. At this point he won't have marauders with conc shell or enough marines to kill zealot outright so he will easily survive a quick poke and run away with shields recharging. - If I see bunkers then I assume he might go fast tech or expand because he wasted money to get defenses and continue with my plan for defending banshee until I scout an expansion. If no bunkers or wall-in then run in and try to scout out base to find either another barracks, factory, or just keep him alive long enough to see if it's early CC (I probably let it die in this case hoping to get marine or scv kills). If it's just a wall-in and I didn't see the factory then it's I have to either take a guess or play it safe. I will probably play it safe with the following. - I leave a probe a bit past the ramp to see if they're pushing out and with what. In the meanwhile I delay robo a bit and get a few stalkers OR I make a forge (if I'm really scared and dont trust my micro) and maybe a few stalkers whenever I have the resources while still making that robo. - If they push out with early aggression at this point (i.e FoxeR's timing) I make more stalkers/zealots if I decided to try to defend with units. If I pussied out and made forge, I make cannons (at ramp if it's long rush distance or at a good spot in my base to defend probes/buildings) and hope I can hold out the attack since I reinforce faster. (make an immortal at this point of course since you dont need obs) - If no early aggression then I survived and scout with newly made obs and see what I need to do next. If they had banshees they'd attack before obs is done (but no cloak) so I'd have to defend with whatever stalkers I had. If I went forge then I'd have to defend with stalkers and warp in more, and hopefully push it out while I make 2 cannons to defend mineral line. (I think forge idea is probably bad for higher level) I'd probably avoid sending out obs right away if I never see terran doing anything in case they waited for 2 banshees plus cloak. My probe in front will tell me if they push out with ground army or move to expand anyways. This is probably not optimal but it feels safer than depending on my FF micro. I would probably die to 3 rax all-in or something but there's no build that's 100% safe against everything so I'll have to take my chances. So... here's a thought, get a terran friend and have him do a fast banshee every time and see if your build stops it. Then have him do BoxeR's strategy (assume you didnt scout second rax) and see if it survives too. If not, see if there's a viable way to modify it to handle both without depending on perfect FF. Again we see the problem... We need that robo... its ridiculous how predictable protoss is. And on top of that protoss is the only race with a risk opening. Zerg and Terran dont have this risk. Thats because they have the map control and tier 1 units to feel safe. Thats why T and Z can FE so easy while P cant. The imbalance here is that forced tech and the lack of early scouting, not that we have the worse tier 1 ( cause that can be a good game design choice ). A great component of RTS is scouting and if one race has to play blind then it wont be as strong as the others. On the other hand if you know what the opponnent will do every game without even commiting resources to scouting then it is clearly a bad design choice and needs to be fixed. And dont tell me players are playing bad and that we need to start using different units like the warp prism cause that is ridiculous.By the time you can use the wp the game is already fairly stable. It is before when u HAVE to open robo and HAVE to decide on the first immortal/obs completly blind that is ruining this otherwise wonderfully balanced game ( except ofc stimmed marines ).
Yeah, TyrantPotato kind of summed it up before this post that there are certain units for both protoss and terran side that are making it a low option matchup. Protoss can't do certain openings if they want to be safe from banshees and Terrans have to always go bio heavy midgame and onwards because no one has found a good way to go mech against Protoss. Blizzard already said they're looking into it so I guess we'll have to wait and see if this matchup improves.
Still doesn't change the fact that Toss players sucked it up in GSL so far
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Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables.
Immortals= EMP
Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking
Phoenix= Thor
Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions
Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks.
DT- Raven/Scans
All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally (need) almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
Sounds a lot like playing Protoss.
I wonder if the cost of teching and tech-switching is largely to blame. Protoss early-game weakness against Terran does seem to be exacerbated by the need to skimp on units in order to afford tech.
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b/c T just need stim and concussive shield to kill all of P units w/o hard micro. P needs good FF, and units composition.
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On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait
You are right. I never thought of these reasons. Pretty much explains everything. Look at TvZ, how diverse and fun it became. All units are viable and used according to situation.
PvT.. Colossi vs MM. FUUUUUU
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On November 05 2010 12:18 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 11:53 TyrantPotato wrote:in my opinion two units have broken pvt/tvp the banshee and the immortal. the banshee because well if you didnt open robo, you lose to cloak just like that. no way around it. meaning that restricts openings from toss, meaning we get stale play from protoss. then the immortal. well remember the days in bw when in TvP there would be lines of tanks bombarding stuff to death. well the immortal alone kills that concept in sc2. each immortal can tank 14.... yes thats FOURTEEN siege tank shots each. meaning two immortals render 28 seige tank shots pretty much useless. meaning two immortals could essentially tank the damage while the rest of the army gets in range to kill the tanks. completely negating the advantage of having tanks in the first place. so that means terran is forced into bio play. and because each race knows the other race has to conform to certain strats. all we ses is the same games again and again. so until we see some sort of change to these units or at least how they interact with protoss/terran, or something done to reduce the sheer effective ness of them. nothing will change. sorry for going off topic i relise this is about gsl protoss results T.T if huk and tester get into gsl 3 and lose misserably, well then blizzard needs to take some sort of action. until then we wait Personally i feel that the problem is the fact that Mech has to accout for so many variables. Immortals= EMP Voids/Carrier= Mass Viking Phoenix= Thor Chargelots-Mass Blue Hellions Blink Stalkers- Spread Tanks. DT- Raven/Scans All these are requirements to mech safely. Notice how gas heavy it becomes. You literally almost every tech unit to just be safe. If Terran could get a goliath type unit and something like spider mines i think TvP mech is possible since it will cut Protoss's amount of options against mech
What? Protoss doesnt have a 1/1/1 build. Theres no way a toss is going robo, stargate, gateway with TC upgrades and templar in the same game unless you are 30 minutes in and have already lost. Just scan dude, and youll find that protoss is doing ONE of those, and counter it.
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On November 04 2010 03:20 FLuE wrote:Ok so if the issue is that HT are taking to long to be effective when needing then address that, and maybe look at the cost of that tech path, because I always think that balance is sometimes more about the timing then the strength of the units. The HT is very strong, very underused, and I also know that was the case in SC very early but as people got better with their storm play it was amazing to see how much could be held off with some photons and some HT. Perhaps it needs to be available earlier and cheaper to get there. Show nested quote +There are a few things i would like to address. The first is harassment is much harder for P. Sure we have blink stalkers, warp prisms, phoenix and i suppose ht and dt. But thats the thing. In comparison to burrowed roaches, speedlings, banelings, overlords and mutas for Z, and Medivacs, reapers, banshees, ravens, hellions and vikings, it is less viable to do. The reason being protoss harass doesnt come from its main army/ usual tech paths. You have to go out of your way to harass, where as terran and zerg generally make these units as a main composition. (with stalkers as an exception.) Also is that for zealots to really be effective they need charge, which takes a long to time get. (without it they are usually only meat shields when playing higher level opponents) Who is harassing with burrowed roaches? It isn't viable to go burrow roach simply to harass, it can be a byproduct but 1 cannon ends that pretty fast. This whole statement to me just seems silly. You list several viable harass options that toss have and then just dismiss them and then state that it is standard play to burrow harass yet isn't standard to get blink stalkers, or HT? I mean why isn't a Warp Prism part of standard toss play? You already spend 100 minerals on proxy pylon sometimes several why not have that to bring into battle more often. I can't remember which pro game/replay I watched where the player used terrific warp prism immortal drop play against tanks. Reminded me of reaver drops and was nasty. You also completely ignore photon cannons as a tool to harass which might be one of the best harass tool in the game now especially vs. zerg. No way a toss can harass? Give me a break, my ramp patrolling drone says otherwise.
Ok, I realize my mistake in the burrowed roaches, I was off to school and rushed this out, hence why i only had two points haha. But still, phoenix cant hit buildings, and can only kill a few workers per phoenix. (How often do you see a phoenix with 10+ kills, versus say a banshee? or muta?) Warp prisms are good for harassing, easily the best unit for P harass. But are very fragile and slow. A couple turrets/spores/cannons shut them down very quickly. Also, they neither heal or can be used in large numbers like overlords. Sure, they can warp in units, but if you have more than you can fly away with, your harass just lost a lot of value with those extra lost units.
And yes, blink stalkers are standard, but once again, They require a very lengthy upgrade at an expensive tech building. And HT? Storm was nerfed from BW, not only in strength, but in ease of use as well. Which, I remind you requires its own tech building and expensive upgrade. IF HT came with storm i would consider it much more viable.
But cannons as harass? How is a contain a harass? A static building cant be considered harass.
When have you ever seen a protoss harass the shit outta somebody with a few units for a long period of time as T does with Banshees and Z does with mutas?
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EPT
