EPTThat or just make a like 100/50 Observatory building to build them that requires a core
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 55
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
That or just make a like 100/50 Observatory building to build them that requires a core | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
On November 05 2010 21:44 Talin wrote: Hmm, I actually somehow like this (if it was balanced out by improving something else, obviously). Never liked the idea of getting Warpgates instantly after CC. If the research was pushed back somewhat, non-Warpgate builds could actually be viable. In general, I'd take any nerf to Immortals / Colossi in exchange for buffing anything else. Or just anything to make Robo tech less dominant really. Or buff Phoenix. Just one little Phoenix buff and I'll never ask for anything again. xD The problem concerning a phoenix buff is that it would be a big change in the unit role. Damage/cost change: it would be overpowered against mutas. If one thing should change, it would be graviton beam with NO ENERGY but a cooldown. And I doubt it will happen :d | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On November 06 2010 01:06 Wayem wrote: The problem concerning a phoenix buff is that it would be a big change in the unit role. Damage/cost change: it would be overpowered against mutas. This wouldn't actually be a concern. Phoenixes are meant to beat mutas quite effectively anyway, so a little extra damage isn't an issue. It's when a buff would make a unit counter something it shouldn't that you have to worry. There's also the option of decreasing bonus damage and increasing base damage, which buffs the phoenix without affecting the damage it does to light units such as mutas. If one thing should change, it would be graviton beam with NO ENERGY but a cooldown. And I doubt it will happen :d This sounds like a terrible change proposal. It would really wreck phoenix harassment play. | ||
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Zrah
Lithuania55 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 06 2010 01:58 Jumbled wrote: This wouldn't actually be a concern. Phoenixes are meant to beat mutas quite effectively anyway, so a little extra damage isn't an issue. It's when a buff would make a unit counter something it shouldn't that you have to worry. There's also the option of decreasing bonus damage and increasing base damage, which buffs the phoenix without affecting the damage it does to light units such as mutas. This sounds like a terrible change proposal. It would really wreck phoenix harassment play. Phoenixes are too handicapped vs armored targets. Not only they deal half their damage, but they also suffer double armor reduction which makes them worthless as a true air superiority craft. Just as a counter to mutas, they are abit too expensive. I'd just get them to 2x6 or even 2x7 vs armored and see what happens. | ||
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Mintastic
United States166 Posts
On November 06 2010 02:17 Zrah wrote: I have a perfect chrono boost idea, chrono boosted pylons reveal stealth ed units in 8-12 range. This would fix all the problems with not going robo first against teran. How about making a forge and then making two cannons next to your minerals? You need the forge for upgrades anyways while the cannons will also help with drop harass in the future. Assuming your simcity was good I think 2 or 3 cannons can have detection for the whole base. (not saying don't get robo ever of course, just for early game) | ||
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Zrah
Lithuania55 Posts
On November 06 2010 02:31 Mintastic wrote: How about making a forge and then making two cannons next to your minerals? You need the forge for upgrades anyways while the cannons will also help with drop harass in the future. Assuming your simcity was good I think 2 or 3 cannons can have detection for the whole base. (not saying don't get robo ever of course, just for early game) 450-600 minerals down the drain aiming for forge+2-3 canons at mineral line in order to survive banshee at 8min is kinda self mutilating. Your ground army would be a lot weaker. Also it would equal protoss stealth detection to terran. You could only use it defensively anyways, and it would give some crucial time to get robo up if you didn't expect cloack banshees | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 06 2010 03:10 Zrah wrote: 450-600 minerals down the drain aiming for forge+2-3 canons at mineral line in order to survive banshee at 8min is kinda self mutilating. Your ground army would be a lot weaker. Also it would equal protoss stealth detection to terran. You could only use it defensively anyways, and it would give some crucial time to get robo up if you didn't expect cloack banshees Yeah, very true. Without observer you even don't know whether terran building any banshees or not. What if he makes Thor push or 3 rax marauder push right before you make any colossi. You are dead instantly. So observer is way better than cannon. Hence protoss has to go by robotics tech. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
On November 06 2010 03:10 Zrah wrote: 450-600 minerals down the drain aiming for forge+2-3 canons at mineral line in order to survive banshee at 8min is kinda self mutilating. Your ground army would be a lot weaker. Also it would equal protoss stealth detection to terran. You could only use it defensively anyways, and it would give some crucial time to get robo up if you didn't expect cloack banshees Person needing detection against stealth shocker. | ||
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Zrah
Lithuania55 Posts
On November 06 2010 03:27 Sqq wrote: Person needing detection against stealth shocker. I offer a reactionary ability which would allow Protoss to survive stealth units w/o insta loss. Lets remove scan from terran so they don't have 4 frigin stealth detections, ghost, turret, raven, scan. You do understand you would be chrono boosting a pylon to get a detection in 9 or 12 range. You would get detection for 20s and would loose a chrono boost. Which could be used on probes or tech. You can't use this offensively unless you have forward pylons, you can't use it for scanning opponents and seeing their tech. This would give Protoss a lot more viable opening vs Teran w/o doing much to any other matchup. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
1. Early expand. Add a gate, research blink or charge (depending on opponents army composition). and attack and try to kill the expansion. If i don't win here, then expand behind the pressure, build 2-3 more gates and really do an all-in. I've only lost 1 game in my last 20 when i did this. 2. Lots of static defenses, no expansion. If they have too many static defenses like 3-4 spines or 2 bunkers, then get blink rush up and kill their army, then retreat and expand. This usually forces them to build a ton of units and sacrifice economy. This gives me a great mid game where i usually win 3. Good defenses (1 bunker, 2 tanks), or 2 queens and a bunch of speedlings no expansion. This for me is where it gets hard. Usually i suspect either a timing attack or mutas/banshees. In any case, i will get a robo bay use an observer and scout and in the meantime build a forge, start ugprading and build 1-2 cannons. This is probably the hardest situation for me as protoss. The inability to scout is hard to deal with. I usually build 3-4 sentries at this time as well and send down a probe to their natural to scout when they are taking an expansion. From here it is entirely situational. 4. All in rush. If i see like 4 racks or a bunch of lings, make 4-5 sentries and a ton of zealots and stalkers. I usually take this time to build a robo bay as well to get the tech advantage. If i hold off the attack and i have a lot of forces, i usually go and pressure to make sure they don't have an expansion and then take a xel'naga while building my expansion and getting up a few collosus. If they have heavy air, then build some extra stalkers and get blink, otherwise focus on a lot of collosus. 5. Cheese. I love it when someone cheeses because I'm pretty good at holding it off. Make sure you use probes if you have to as cheeses usually sacrifice economy anyway, so losing a few probes isn't a huge deal. 6. Gosu. What this means is that my opponent has a larger supply, a better economy and better tech. This has happened a few times where my opponent matches me for everything. At this point i go stargate, build a few phoenix for harass and try to kite attack with stalkers and zealots. If you opponent is really gosu then they will have cloaked banshees killing ur workers, maraudar drops, or a ball of mutas. Often, the best strategy at this time is to cut your losses, build an extra gateway and go all-in. I've yet to win a game in this situation. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
3. Good defenses (1 bunker, 2 tanks), or 2 queens and a bunch of speedlings no expansion. This for me is where it gets hard. Usually i suspect either a timing attack or mutas/banshees. In any case, i will get a robo bay use an observer and scout and in the meantime build a forge, start ugprading and build 1-2 cannons. This is probably the hardest situation for me as protoss. The inability to scout is hard to deal with. I usually build 3-4 sentries at this time as well and send down a probe to their natural to scout when they are taking an expansion. From here it is entirely situational. Do you try to use Hallucinations to scout? | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On November 06 2010 04:09 beetlelisk wrote: b Do you try to use Hallucinations to scout? The problem isn't how you scout, but how long it takes to get it up. Usually you need the robo bay for detection anyway | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
Is anyone doing anything similar? | ||
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LazyMacro
976 Posts
On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote: Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable. Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol. | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On November 06 2010 05:34 Hellye wrote: Move observer to core! It would delay the oh so dreaded - -' 4gate and toss would be in the same situation as zerg ( meaning getting detection in a essential structure to all their tech paths ). Actually i think observer to templar archives would be fine with me as well. It would force protoss to build an early templar archives which is not neccesarily a bad thing because of the awesome upgrades. | ||
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Suerte
United States117 Posts
Being forced down the robo path is not that bad of a problem. Your robo units are incredibly potent and are a good tool to help you expand and then branch off from your tech. I really wish I would see more P's in the GSL stop doing 1 base crap that doesn't work and start doing FE builds more similar to a 1-gate expo because that's the only build I can say I have a much better chance of success using. The only game I really thought, damn that sucks, was when NEXgenius went blink stalkers and his opponent decided he was going to cloak banshee rush. That's incredibly lame and annoying to have to deal with, but at the same time, the Terran was also walking the same tightrope. In going cloak banshees you are wide open, especially on DQ to get hit by a 4 gate. In short, a lot of the P decisions I saw in the GSL when it came to them being knocked out could be considered pretty questionable. I get that they wanted to be unpredictable, but sometimes being predictable is a good thing. Look at Idra, he has a good amount of success and he plays very predictable. | ||
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Zrah
Lithuania55 Posts
On November 06 2010 05:46 darmousseh wrote: Actually i think observer to templar archives would be fine with me as well. It would force protoss to build an early templar archives which is not neccesarily a bad thing because of the awesome upgrades. I really hope your trolling, you want to increase the path to observer by 100/200 and 50s? | ||
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