EPT if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there.
This is similar to telling a zerg player "Just get a bunch of ultralisks out early, then you'll be safe enough to macro up from there".
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 50
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
This is similar to telling a zerg player "Just get a bunch of ultralisks out early, then you'll be safe enough to macro up from there". | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there. Wow.... I don't know if you're serious or not... Do you know the amount of time needed to get to templar tech as well as the resource needed? | ||
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xilaratu
United States233 Posts
Lets say you take the top 8 players in the world purely based on skill. And lets say these 8 players all make it to ro8 of the GSL. The chances that none of these players are protoss is actually quite high. .6667 ^ 8 = 0.0390 ~4% chance nobody in the ro8 is protoss, assuming each race has an equal chance to win in all scenarios (maps/racial imbalance). | ||
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-{Cake}-
United States217 Posts
Drops can be easier to defend with good placement observers and a few stalkers in every expansion. I feel like PvT is heavily in favor for P. If T goes mech build you are able to macro more, if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there. And about xel naga, the map is bigger than standard maps but it still kinda small with small choke points for mech play. Have you actually played a PvT against a good T and gone quick 1-2 base templar? Did you win? If so, could we please get some replays? If not, your advice is worthless because it has no basis in anything | ||
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TungVu
Vietnam25 Posts
Drops can be easier to defend with good placement observers and a few stalkers in every expansion. I feel like PvT is heavily in favor for P. If T goes mech build you are able to macro more, if T goes for a bio push, counter it with templar play (bigger maps = easier 2 base) then macro from there. And about xel naga, the map is bigger than standard maps but it still kinda small with small choke points for mech play. Why do bad players keep giving advice lol. Do u even play SC2 at all? | ||
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University
United States263 Posts
Not that the OP was THAT bad, I was kind of surprised at the sparsity of Protoss in the GSL1/2 as well, but just the title is going to bring in every "expert" on TL who joined in 2010. | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On November 05 2010 01:19 Durp wrote: The reason is twofold- skill and some semblance of balance. Before you flame, I do NOT mean I think its imba. Firstly, nexgenius won blizzcon and still isn't anywhere near the level of the top gamers. SSKS on the other hand is. Look through the vP wins, most players later in the tournament tell you they train with him. When you train with the best protoss, you will beat lesser ones. With that being said, the second problem is protoss predictability. There are not very many viable openings, as too many toss openers leave you vulnerable to glaring matchup flaws (large map T drop harass comes to mind). One of three things will happen 1. Someone will come up with a new safe early opener for protoss and the entire problem is solved (imagine as T not automatically knowing no FE and no 4gate equals 2gaterobo?) 2. This will continue for a few more weeks of protoss imba rage, and blizzard will make an unnecessary patch 3. sSKS comes back to qualify for GSL3 and finally puts this senseless argument to rest. For the record, I main protoss. Its not imbalanced, we just still suck. What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? Cause i really dont see any protoss pros doing anything different than what we are all doing. And i am sure that all protoss are trying hard to come up with good different opennings but like the zerg a few patches ago it is very difficult to do so. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On November 02 2010 03:31 Lucius2 wrote: It does seem like Protoss commonly employs a very small number of build orders and this makes them predictable in the early game. The fascinating parts of a Protoss build order are where and how many gateways to build and when to make a robo. And is it just me or have HTs seen significantly less use lately? [/QUOTE] I think as has already been mentioned a lot of this is that toss has to be reactionary in the early game, especially against terran. Against terran, the main culprit are banshees. Banshees by themselves are a strong unit, but dealable with protoss ground and air. The problem is how quickly they can get cloak, which forces robo based build orders, or all-inish 4 gate pushes. The other factor is that terran infantry tends to trounce toss infantry once stim is researched. Toss has to reply on templar/collossus to beat terran forces...which again limits options. Against zerg, toss have lost a bit of their early game pressure, so their main strategies now are to either take down the zerg with a 4 gate before the macro power of zerg kicks in...or prepare the weapons of war to handle the zerg swarm. The weapons of war once again being HT or Collossus. HT don't do as well against the ling/roach armies you will often see in the midgame, making the collossus the default choice. It also gives you an immortal gap closure against power roach play. Now these factors by themselves do not make toss underpowered, but they do become more predictable, and I think eventually that will lead to protoss problems against other races. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On November 05 2010 02:07 Hellye wrote: What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? I think the biggest thing toss could work on right now is their warp prism use. Terrans have fully embraced their drop ships, and zerg are starting to incorporate baneling drops and mass base drops back into their orders. Toss have a powerful weapon with the warp prism...especially in conjucture with HT or immortals. I think its a weapon that can easily be incorporated into current toss build orders with time and practice. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On November 05 2010 03:35 Karas wrote: I think the biggest thing toss could work on right now is their warp prism use. Terrans have fully embraced their drop ships, and zerg are starting to incorporate baneling drops and mass base drops back into their orders. Toss have a powerful weapon with the warp prism...especially in conjucture with HT or immortals. I think its a weapon that can easily be incorporated into current toss build orders with time and practice. Actually I think it was NEXGenius at Blizzcon on one of the Xel'naga Caverns games vs Loner who used a Warp Prism to drop Immortals on Sieged Tanks while engaging with his army while Loner was at his nat's front door. Was pretty cool to see. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
I think the biggest thing toss could work on right now is their warp prism use. Terrans have fully embraced their drop ships, and zerg are starting to incorporate baneling drops and mass base drops back into their orders. Toss have a powerful weapon with the warp prism...especially in conjucture with HT or immortals. I think its a weapon that can easily be incorporated into current toss build orders with time and practice. On paper it sounds like the thing we should do, but there is a small problem with it imo. By comparing Warp Prism with Medivac and Overlord, warp prism lose in effectiveness. What I mean by that is you never would want to build a lot of them. As a Terran, you don't mind having a bunch of medivac because they heal bio units and zerg always have overlord. As for protoss, there is absolutely no reason to have more than 1-2 warp prism. | ||
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Mintastic
United States166 Posts
Instead of finding new strategies, I think protoss pros need to first find consistency in their play. Dominating some matches and playing poorly in others is a bad thing to have in the knockout format of GSL. Consistency is a useful talent toi have. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On November 05 2010 01:27 dragonblade369 wrote: Wow.... I don't know if you're serious or not... Do you know the amount of time needed to get to templar tech as well as the resource needed? Just a question (I play Z myself so not too knowledgeable on PvT) but don't chargelots do well against MMM and transition beautifully into templar? Is holding off on 1/2 base (depending on pressure) into chargelots a valid way to get to 3+bases ? As I understand it if the Protoss gets to 3+bases the game is essentially won. I understand MMM is painful to deal with but it seems to me like chargelot with some sentries (because you have gas) should do pretty well, especially with the tank nerf so even if there are tanks they won't ruin your zealots too much. | ||
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Mystix
Canada78 Posts
On November 05 2010 01:32 xilaratu wrote: .6667 ^ 8 = 0.0390 ~4% chance nobody in the ro8 is protoss, assuming each race has an equal chance to win in all scenarios (maps/racial imbalance). The whole point is that you can't assume .66667 chance of winning. To bring in a probability argument with an assumption that all races are equal isn't correct. | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
On November 05 2010 02:07 Hellye wrote: What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? Cause i really dont see any protoss pros doing anything different than what we are all doing. And i am sure that all protoss are trying hard to come up with good different opennings but like the zerg a few patches ago it is very difficult to do so. What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them. | ||
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Zrah
Lithuania55 Posts
On November 05 2010 01:19 Perscienter wrote: One base straight high templars tech: the T will over-expand you. Two base straight high templars tech: high probability of dying to 3 rax or 2 starports openings before the templar tech kicks in. One base templar is worse then 1 base carrier. | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
On November 05 2010 02:07 Hellye wrote: What is "we just suck"? Do we suck on not being able to think of good openings? We suck cause we cant take the most of the units we got? We suck how? Cause i really dont see any protoss pros doing anything different than what we are all doing. And i am sure that all protoss are trying hard to come up with good different opennings but like the zerg a few patches ago it is very difficult to do so. What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them. | ||
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Effen
227 Posts
... ..... you are basing your opinion on such a small sample size that it is 100% invalid. you gotta look at the bigger picture. | ||
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john0507
164 Posts
On November 05 2010 04:40 Durp wrote: What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them. Not really agreeing with everything you just said. However I 100% agree that Protoss just doesn't really have many "star players" in the scene compared to other races. NexGenius was never really top tier, the fact that he won Blizzcon doesnt change that , any of the top 8 koreans in GSL would've Roflstomped their way in Blizzcon too. Can't really see what SangHo could've done in the GSL , he lost cos he made crucial mistakes, that's about it, who knows how well he could've done. Tester got knocked out way early to build he never even saw before. And Inca , well u just can't compare him to the BW pros. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 05 2010 04:40 Durp wrote: What I mean is as a whole, the skill level of protoss players is not as high. I'm not going to waste my breath arguing that the roach is not imba, but other than ssks I have not seen a single protoss player outright dominate any other high tier players (I'm sorry, huk and sang ho just don't cut it). Quite frankly, protoss is not weak or underpowered. At 200/200 food, with proper scouting for hard counters, protoss should beat every race, as we've got the most versatile and powerful hard counters. (With blink and charge no race even touches protoss tier 1 late game). Look at FoxeR in the gsl to see that the true highest level players can win on skill alone, even against perfect hard counters. Fruit dealer, boxer, foxer, itr, idra... Only ssks comes to mind at being anywhere near their level. When the rest of the protoss field catches up to testers ability (nexgenius is close) the protoss will catch up. Nobodys good enough yet to overcome the staleness of protoss openers. Its not that the race isn't good enough- its the players playing them. Sorry, but you're being incredibly biased and ignorant. We saw how "good" ITR is today, he plays crap but still manages to beat best protoss with ease. | ||
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