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On November 04 2010 15:52 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 13:24 Blacklizard wrote:
While I'm thinking of it, a wishlist for the next expansion:
1. Warp-out via Nexus (not mothership). In other words, you warp-into an enemy base with Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries... then when defense comes you warp-out back to home Nexus. That would allow the more expensive Protoss units a less costly/all-in/risky harass option early on. Would allow them to put some of their units back in their army (a la Banshee). Could also help vs Marauder conc shells if you meet them in the middle of the map early on. Hell, put it as an option on probes too. That way protoss have a way to save part of an expansion like Terran (float) and Zerg (burrow) do.
2. Possible way to fix protoss's problematic expensive/non-flexible tech problems without changing them much. Warp-exit which would refund unit or building cost.
Went dark templar rush and was completely countered and lost half of them? Insta-lose? No problem, warp-exit all the dark temps you have left and the dark shrine.
Went immortal vs a 2 port banshee/marine build? Warp-exit the immortals. Now you have gas for an observer and a stargate.
Now you can have a small hope of coming back with a new tech... just will take 2 minutes to get, but better than nothing.
Think of it as the answer to Zerg's auto-tech switch or Terran's units which are fair to good vs most all other units.
I was not going to post where Protoss are trying to formulate strategy or whatever but even on paper this sounds ridiculous. Are you on crack? Sell back the units and buildings? This is insanity.
Its not that insane its what Undead can do in WC3 at least with buildings but I cant say I like the idea really.
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I do think Protoss are a little weak v terran and on certain maps but I think the difference is pretty small. We have all seen how very small changes can swing things very quickly in recent weeks.
The reason why I think the Protoss did badly in this GSL is because they either made mistakes going for some different builds they may not have been as familiar with due to the very recent changes or they were hit by timing attacks that will probably be history in a few weeks time. SC2 tactics are in a very fluid form at the moment and I think too many changes will maybe make things worse either way. Remember Foxer looked very badly in the first round of this GSL and he looks a completely different player now so there are always other factors that need to be considered.
One thing I dont want to see for the moment are any more Protoss nerfs and am a bit concerned over the comments made at Blizzcon of Protoss being a bit strong v T at Silver and Gold level and the comment made on keeping an eye on storm because of "a strong late game".
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On November 07 2010 13:52 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am? Nobody responded because your post is stupid. If you're having terrans "spam scans" on you, as you put it, then you're obviously playing in silver league, because no good terrans have energy to spam scans before lategame. If you can't beat terrans who aren't even using their macro mechanic at all and instead save all their energy for scans, I don't really know what to tell you.
Well that's an awesome response and you clearly took the definition of the term 'spam scans' literally rather than as intended, way to overlook the rest of it.
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On November 07 2010 14:58 Vimsey wrote:
or they were hit by timing attacks that will probably be history in a few weeks time.
will more likely be the opposite
P has those openings at certain timings, they cant do anything about it without creating even worse openings later or earlier
but not all Z/T know those timings of the different buildorders
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On November 07 2010 17:00 Rea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 14:58 Vimsey wrote:
or they were hit by timing attacks that will probably be history in a few weeks time. will more likely be the opposite P has those openings at certain timings, they cant do anything about it without creating even worse openings later or earlier but not all Z/T know those timings of the different buildorders
I personally am extremely happy that 99.9% of Terrans on SEA do not punish Protosses that tech to storm.
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On November 07 2010 17:27 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:00 Rea wrote:On November 07 2010 14:58 Vimsey wrote:
or they were hit by timing attacks that will probably be history in a few weeks time. will more likely be the opposite P has those openings at certain timings, they cant do anything about it without creating even worse openings later or earlier but not all Z/T know those timings of the different buildorders I personally am extremely happy that 99.9% of Terrans on SEA do not punish Protosses that tech to storm.
sadly its an autloss in higher EU ranks
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On November 02 2010 03:15 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 03:09 Protoss_Carrier wrote:+ Show Spoiler +No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4 I am just wondering, why is protoss having such a poor showing? I open up game after game hoping for a protoss victory, but it just seems like protoss cannot compete. Is it due to the skill of protoss players, or the power of protoss does not scale well with level of competition? Or could it have to do with the number of completely unviable units protoss have? Let's discuss. I don't think you can summarize the ability of a race based on single tournament results. [1] In mirror matches, one of that race automatically gets knocked out [2] The second best person in the tournament could get knocked out first round because of the person he was matched against [3] If you make a mistake, you're knocked out of the tournament. It's not an average of several games, it's the result of a single game. Have you ever made a mistake? [4] Every player has weaknesses. The best PvT player could get knocked out because he was forced to play PvP. [5] There were probably more Terrans in the tournament to begin with. [6] What if flat out more people just play Terran? Perhaps maybe there was imbalance at a time when the game/beta just came out and players continued using that race. You need to use a much broader set of games to make conclusions, but even then, you have to separate that by skill. In diamond league in general average points for Terran and Protoss are about 940, whereas for Zerg it's 1040. However, in the top 5000 players and above, it's actually pretty even right now (Though I have a feeling we're just in the middle of a transition, and that zerg will continue to pull ahead in all sections).
Very valid arguements, your name made me laugh though haha.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2010 06:01 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 05:26 LazyMacro wrote:On November 06 2010 05:04 Silidons wrote:
Personally I love Toss but I have been practicing zerg lately (don't want to mess up ladder ranking though been doing customs) and might make the switch once I get more comfortable.
Is anyone doing anything similar? I've been thinking of changing races. Something with protoss just doesn't feel right to me. But at the same time, I don't want to jump ship only to have stuff fixed, lol. I switched to Zerg a week ago. I already do better. I never realized how much easier it is to macro as zerg, you can build all your units without going back to your base (except to inject larvae). I can micro like the pros! (lol)
Inject larvae with the minimap is pretty easy too, I don't always do it, but if I try and do it when I remember to look at the minimap. I feel like playing toss in general has made my micro better. Even a Zealot Stalker army is far better off with a decent amount of micro, so its just a good Protoss skill
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On November 07 2010 13:52 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 14:46 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:38 abrasion wrote:On November 03 2010 22:00 lowercase wrote:
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DTs... don't get me started. Terran has the best detection in the game: click, scan, dead DTs. You can never catch them "off guard" without having built detection, they automatically have it. And once they realize there are DTs, they build a few turrets (which cost nothing and build instantly), and the "harass" is over... critically, with nothing left to do down that tech path. It's over, waste of a dark shrine.
. The terrans fuck up with getting detection? - spam scan Nothing at all? Not even a smackdown on how wrong I am? Nobody responded because your post is stupid. If you're having terrans "spam scans" on you, as you put it, then you're obviously playing in silver league, because no good terrans have energy to spam scans before lategame. If you can't beat terrans who aren't even using their macro mechanic at all and instead save all their energy for scans, I don't really know what to tell you.
well, despite the post you refered to, what you say is complete nonsense. i recommend the latest daily to you. d9 actually really tries to show, how much a good terran scans and needs to scan.
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Protoss have the most rigid tech paths of all the races. At the GSL level I think that's being exploited by the races with flexibility, all they have to do is pick something, and if the Protoss isn't on the right path then it's gg.
Detection is a good example, but it's chrono boost where the rigidity is so obvious. I'm sure this mechanic was intended to supply flexibility, but in reality it does the opposite. Since all balance patches are based around "how early could protoss get this out if they exclusively chrono boosted it at the expense of all else?" and create the tech paths and balance timings around that, which results in craziness like the Dark Shrine (where chrono boost cannot be used at any point to speed it up) and zero harrass options (because with using exclusive CB on them they might have been strong otherwise, nevermind what that would have done to our economy).
Ironically I don't think it would take much to fix! Hallucinating observers, and allowing chrono boosts to stack (e.g. applying 2 chrono boosts to make it 100% faster), or allowing boosts to building warp ins, and suddenly we'd have options and surprises...
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I think that chronoboost isnt in comparison to the multiple things terran and zerg get.
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On November 07 2010 20:41 Paradice wrote:
Protoss have the most rigid tech paths of all the races. At the GSL level I think that's being exploited by the races with flexibility, all they have to do is pick something, and if the Protoss isn't on the right path then it's gg.
Protoss has the most rigit tech paths because the other viable tech paths were nerfed. Sometime ago i used to read a lot of people saying protoss and terran were the ones with more viable openings. This is not something that is inherent to the protoss race but the balance. Nerf terran units, techs, and you'd see people saying terran doesn't have many viable openings.
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Don't remind me about the Dark Shrine build time, holy crap - it's like half a damned match.
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On November 07 2010 20:41 Paradice wrote:
Protoss have the most rigid tech paths of all the races. At the GSL level I think that's being exploited by the races with flexibility, all they have to do is pick something, and if the Protoss isn't on the right path then it's gg.
Detection is a good example, but it's chrono boost where the rigidity is so obvious. I'm sure this mechanic was intended to supply flexibility, but in reality it does the opposite. Since all balance patches are based around "how early could protoss get this out if they exclusively chrono boosted it at the expense of all else?" and create the tech paths and balance timings around that, which results in craziness like the Dark Shrine (where chrono boost cannot be used at any point to speed it up) and zero harrass options (because with using exclusive CB on them they might have been strong otherwise, nevermind what that would have done to our economy).
Ironically I don't think it would take much to fix! Hallucinating observers, and allowing chrono boosts to stack (e.g. applying 2 chrono boosts to make it 100% faster), or allowing boosts to building warp ins, and suddenly we'd have options and surprises...
I dont think thats right at all each race was given a mechanic they could use that could be used to boost mostly economy and an army to some extent manually.
Dark Shrine build time was nerfed in Beta to slow down production of DTs and their gas cost increased also the zealot nerf was done because Blizzard said that Protoss was able to use the chronoboost mechanic to create a large number of them too early. So I dont see them backtracking and bringing back early DTs and the zealot rush anytime soon sadly.
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Great games on MLG this weekend, but they have underscored for me the point that Toss doesn't have ANY good anti-air. Stalkers? Give me a break, they're OK, but they're all-rounders, not dedicated. Phoenixes? Get clobbered in equal numbers by either vikings or mutas.
It would be great if a future expansion contained a good AA unit, and I'm talking about something versus vikings.
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On November 07 2010 17:53 Rea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:27 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2010 17:00 Rea wrote:On November 07 2010 14:58 Vimsey wrote:
or they were hit by timing attacks that will probably be history in a few weeks time. will more likely be the opposite P has those openings at certain timings, they cant do anything about it without creating even worse openings later or earlier but not all Z/T know those timings of the different buildorders I personally am extremely happy that 99.9% of Terrans on SEA do not punish Protosses that tech to storm. sadly its an autloss in higher EU ranks
What do you consider higher? 95% of my PvT I go for 2 base storm and Im 1800 dia
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I don't think there is enough data to argue statistics yet. What is more telling is that almost all the SC2 Pros picked Terran or Zerg.
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I think the shining light for Protoss is Tyler he is innovative finding key timings. His blink stalker play against zerg is going to be all over the ladder now in PvZ. He makes 3 gates instead of 4 and beats 4 gates with his 3 sometimes showing that his macro is spot on. I think LiquidTyler has been messing with chronoboost and discovered some interesting timings in all the matchups. proobably somewhere after 40 food or so where he is not chronoboosting probes but boosting his gates or research specifically to meet a specific timing window. Not chronoboosting because he wants it now.
I will definitely be looking at his replays from this weekend for sure and studying them
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On November 07 2010 21:10 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 20:41 Paradice wrote:
Protoss have the most rigid tech paths of all the races. At the GSL level I think that's being exploited by the races with flexibility, all they have to do is pick something, and if the Protoss isn't on the right path then it's gg.
Protoss has the most rigit tech paths because the other viable tech paths were nerfed. Sometime ago i used to read a lot of people saying protoss and terran were the ones with more viable openings. This is not something that is inherent to the protoss race but the balance. Nerf terran units, techs, and you'd see people saying terran doesn't have many viable openings.
omg, never ever nerf terran, terran is soooo fucking awesome. the race has anything. every unit is somehow not only viable but strong. you are not forced to tech, but you can of course, you can play aggressive, harrassing or defensiv.
the problem is just, that the othre races dont have all those options. i mean, just imagine, tvp in broodwar with more than one build! this would have made the game even more awesome than it is nonetheless.
its better to give protoss and maybe even zerg (though this race is something completely different) more option instead of limiting the options of terra.
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NEXGenius actually said he thought P was the strongest race in a recent interview.. Food for thought.
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EPT
