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On September 06 2010 12:00 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:38 Martijn wrote:On September 06 2010 11:09 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
The major difference being live streaming adds an insane level of cheating that can't be detected. Use of maphacks etc can be found out and when replays are looked at discrepancy in keybinds etc can sometimes become obvious. Simply watching a live stream or somebody relaying you advice who is watching it? Virtually impossible. And one of the major things is how many more events and how much more $$$ is on the stake with more players than ever. Actually admins have the >exact< same tools to spot cheating this way as they did in broodwar. I do think players should always be on dnd by the way because some people do grief at times and fuck with games just because they dislike the other player, and maybe we can get a tool to monitor processes and have messengers like skype/vent disallowed. Which is why I said it? The difference being live streams in broodwar during tournaments were fairly rare. Now, every day there are live streamed tournaments for sc2 which is why it is a problem. The same old issues exist but the same countermeasures still exist. Livestreaming is a relatively new one.
I'm referring to maphacks in broodwar. The same things that got maphackers in BW caught, would get "stream"hackers (if you will) caught.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 Martijn wrote:
I'm referring to maphacks in broodwar. The same things that got maphackers in BW caught, would get "stream"hackers (if you will) caught.
Obviously not, you can't "catch" a maphacker without any proof because I can turn my whole army around simply by instinctively realizing something fishy is going on and it would just so happen that the opponent is trying to drop my main. Dino hacked constantly yet no one could prove it until a certain program came out and detected it. Same with hullah and many others. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
Any smart player like white ra will be at such a huge disadvantage if people knew what he was doing lmao. Because his macro alone isn't up to par with what top macro monsters can provide.
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On September 06 2010 12:11 News wrote:
Martijn, you are not getting anything that people say and you keep repeating yourself. It doesn't matter that casters are trying not to lag, as long as they lag they are in the way and the game outcome is being fucked with. Another thing, cheating is the biggest issue here, if you don't get it you have no place arguing in this thread. If you played bw you should know at least a little bit about many well-respected foreign players getting caught hacking multiple times; and everyone in bw community was really paranoid about hacking constantly keeping an eye on every suspicious thing. Still only accidentally those players were caught. Allowing people to play for cash while streaming it live is absolutely idiotic. IDIOTIC.
Also saying that casting replays instantly after the game would affect the viewer in any way is absurd, whoever wanted to watch will still watch, just like everyone religiously watched TSL. It seems to me that you haven't been following actual STARCRAFT at all; not sure what community you came from but this is not how you deal with issues at all.
At least have a civil discussion, you don't have to be on the debate team to understand that "if you don't get it, well you don't belong here" has no place in a properly formulated argument. What you need to grasp that running a maphack is still just as effective as it was in bw and has almost no disadvantage compared to cheating through a stream while giving players a myriad of information they couldn't get off a stream and whenever they want it. That's what cheating is a whole separate argument and there being a need for a whole different set of countermeasures.
I don't want to get on bad terms with the players, so I don't publicize this and I hope this stays in this thread, but during beta phase one alone I've asked admins to review replays on 4 different occasions because I thought they were fishy. Turns out, they were legit, but that didn't stop me from asking the admins for a review next time it occurred.
On September 06 2010 12:22 News wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 Martijn wrote:
I'm referring to maphacks in broodwar. The same things that got maphackers in BW caught, would get "stream"hackers (if you will) caught. Obviously not, you can't "catch" a maphacker without any proof because I can turn my whole army around simply by instinctively realizing something fishy is going on and it would just so happen that the opponent is trying to drop my main. Dino hacked constantly yet no one could prove it until a certain program came out and detected it. Same with hullah and many others. You simply don't know what you are talking about. Any smart player like white ra will be at such a huge disadvantage if people knew what he was doing lmao. Because his macro alone isn't up to par with what top macro monsters can provide.
I helped design and implement an anticheat client for league play for what at the time was the biggest dota league. I've done 4 years of league administration for arguably the biggest and most notorious gaming league there was. Saying I don't know what I'm talking about is nothing but a snide remark when I'm one of the few people who has been on all 3 sides of the fence. As a player, an admin and a streamer. Try looking at the situation from a different perspective.
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Surely someone out there is working on a delayed stream solution. R1CH, think of the children!
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I don't much have the time to browse through seven pages at the moment, but there are other gaming communities out there who have had similar issues that were resolved by the game developers coding a delayed live view of the match to be played on a different server so it wouldn't lag the players.
Blizzard wanting to bring SCII into the limelight of e-sports would be wise to consider such an under taking. From a competent group of code-monkeys it wouldn't exactly be hard to implement either.
-Two players enter custom match with one ref as the Host
-Host checks "remote viewing" option from side panel
-Game gets put on a five to ten minute queue to prevent cheating
-New tab for remote viewing gets added to the main SCII options
-List of all games being remotely streamed can be selected and watched from there via another server to prevent player lag
-Magic happens; it would be like watching any other replay, only live on a slight delay
Alternatively, people can stop using cardboard boxes for computers and carriers that use dental floss for fiber optics, but not likely. Blizzard has the resources and bandwidth to pull off the aforementioned "streaming" and would put them on par with other e-sport communities who implement similar features.
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On September 06 2010 12:28 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Surely someone out there is working on a delayed stream solution. R1CH, think of the children!
We have, it's a pain with the current architecture of the streaming platforms, we haven't given up. Optimally we'd get Waaaghtv/hltv/battlecast or such, but we don't have the time nor resources for that. Would be great if the community stepped up here.
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On September 06 2010 09:55 jamesr12 wrote:
live casting is good for lan style events
bad for online tourneys
I agree. I'm getting kind of sick of all the live casts of online tourneys that wait around for a match to start when there's a dozen other matches going on in the tourney. Doing a delayed replay cast would solve the laggy caster problem for players, allow the casters to cover more of the matches, allow the casters to rewind and look at a different perspective when multiple important things are going on, and prevent players from cheating by watching casts of their own matches while they play. Live casting only belongs at a live event where the organizers can be sure the players aren't cheating.
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I think having one Referee in the matches and sending replays off to casting teams is by far the easiest idea, everybody wins.
What really appalls me is the lack of respect for the players when obs and casters are asked to leave. I've only seen 1 observer leave the second they were asked, and I have yet to ever see a caster leave the first time they are asked. And I watch a lot of live casts.
Having 1 official caster for an event that is required is a different story and if that person is causing lag it should be changed for the next game so the players can play the game. Casters shouldn't be inherently entitled to cast games even if they're the official stream (if problems are arising), and it feels like every caster and their grandma acts like they're more important than the players. It's pretty disgusting.
Each event should get 1 email address per casting team far prior to the event starting. Delegate X amount of referee's who will spec major games with the big names and distribute the replays once the games are complete. Email is instant, it's not like it's a big deal. If a casting team would like to cast a replay from someone in the tournament that doesn't get caught by one of the official ref's, go talk to one of the players and get the replay. It's by far the simplest way to make this entire issue disappear.
This comes from someone who watches a lot of streams and casts, and I greatly prefer live games to replays. However what I prefer even more is not watching 5 casting teams bicker and fight like little bitches about who can cast what while causing lag that is detrimental to the game quality for the players.
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On September 06 2010 12:02 Martijn wrote:
The point was that this was argued to be easier than using a maphack, so make it harder. Do you think downloading/running a maphack is harder than having a second person on the phone all game?
Yes, and riskier. Maphacks can be detected, "my friend called me on the phone/yelled from another room/has his laptop next to my computer" can't.
My point was that your "make players run software that blocks IM clients" suggestion was dumb, since there's countless other ways to communicate that information. The only sensible solutions are "don't cast online games live" or "trust professional players to act honorably".
One of those solutions works 100%, the other doesn't, but it has the exact same success rate as your spyware suggestion.
EDIT:
during beta phase one alone I've asked admins to review replays on 4 different occasions because I thought they were fishy. Turns out, they were legit, but that didn't stop me from asking the admins for a review next time it occurred.
I don't understand what your point is, other than "I am paranoid and here's proof".
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On September 06 2010 12:34 sircuddles wrote:
I think having one Referee in the matches and sending replays off to casting teams is by far the easiest idea, everybody wins.
What really appalls me is the lack of respect for the players when obs and casters are asked to leave. I've only seen 1 observer leave the second they were asked, and I have yet to ever see a caster leave the first time they are asked. And I watch a lot of live casts.
I've left games when asked and I have seen others do it too. Hell, people have probably heard me complain about observers not leaving when asked. When things like this happen, tournament admins should take action against the streamers.
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Cheating off of a stream is far more effective than cheating using a maphack program because it is nearly impossible to determine the difference between someone who "guessed the right units" and someone who watched the stream. If you aren't incredibly careful with a maphack program, eventually you will look into fog randomly, and get caught. However, streamhacking is much harder to tell from good game sense.
A third party program that delays the stream works incredibly well in HoN, and would be just as effective in SC2. Who cares if you know where the Dark Shrine is 5 minutes after your opponent destroyed 20 of your workers with DTs?
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If games were played and then the replays sent off to a casting team games could still be live streamed, the only ones knowing the results would be the players and those who they told. This removes the ability to cheat, besides a maphack, because the game would be played before being streamed at all.
On September 06 2010 12:33 phuzi0n wrote:
I agree. I'm getting kind of sick of all the live casts of online tourneys that wait around for a match to start when there's a dozen other matches going on in the tourney. Doing a delayed replay cast would solve the laggy caster problem for players, allow the casters to cover more of the matches, allow the casters to rewind and look at a different perspective when multiple important things are going on, and prevent players from cheating by watching casts of their own matches while they play. Live casting only belongs at a live event where the organizers can be sure the players aren't cheating.
This is right on.
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^ Well that's just you Martijn. Don't forget you're not the only casters around and it has happened multiple times where players ask the obs to leave and they don't. And when admins are not obsing the game it's worst.
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On September 06 2010 12:35 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:02 Martijn wrote:
The point was that this was argued to be easier than using a maphack, so make it harder. Do you think downloading/running a maphack is harder than having a second person on the phone all game? Yes, and riskier. Maphacks can be detected, "my friend called me on the phone/yelled from another room/has his laptop next to my computer" can't. My point was that your "make players run software that blocks IM clients" suggestion was dumb, since there's countless other ways to communicate that information. The only sensible solutions are "don't cast online games live" or "trust professional players to act honorably". One of those solutions works 100%, the other doesn't, but it has the exact same success rate as your spyware suggestion. EDIT: Show nested quote +during beta phase one alone I've asked admins to review replays on 4 different occasions because I thought they were fishy. Turns out, they were legit, but that didn't stop me from asking the admins for a review next time it occurred. I don't understand what your point is, other than "I am paranoid and here's proof".
Really, you think maphacks get detected 100%? In most any gaming community there's 2 classes of hacks, 1 the public ones which the anticheat clients attempt to spot, 2 the private ones which are practically never banned. I know of leagues that have gone as far as to buy private hacks in a futile attempt to catch them. A day after the next version of the AC comes out, they're updated and undetectable again. Hell, I've seen leagues resort to activities which I'm pretty certain break laws just to find cheaters heh, but that's nothing to talk about in public.
On September 06 2010 12:41 GenoZStriker wrote:
^ Well that's just you Martijn. Don't forget you're not the only casters around and it has happened multiple times where players ask the obs to leave and they don't. And when admins are not obsing the game it's worst.
Tournaments should get rid of those streamers. Hell, the admins are often watching the stream instead of obsing so should know if it occurs.
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If players are interested in bigger prize pools and being able to actually make a living off of a video game, then they are going to have to put up with spectators and the media circus that surrounds the delivery of such content to the people paying the bills.
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On September 06 2010 12:02 Martijn wrote:The point was that this was argued to be easier than using a maphack, so make it harder. Do you think downloading/running a maphack is harder than having a second person on the phone all game?
Using map-hacks would be pre-meditated cheating, whereas leaving a stream on while playing would be opportunistic. It's a fact of human nature that people who would never break the rules with pre-meditation, sometimes succumb to opportunistic rule-breaking (because the temptation arises). (It's easy, after all. Many players in tournaments watch streams in between rounds etc.)
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On September 06 2010 12:44 Martijn wrote:
Really, you think maphacks get detected 100%?
No, which is why I didn't say anything of the kind?
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I've always wondered how many games people like Trump lose because they cast their games.
I'm sure even in tournaments cheating off streams happens all the time. Why wouldn't it?
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i agree with this.. but I think its necessary for big LAN events. being "live" just makes it worth watching. However, they do need to somehow include a 3-5 minute delay. i definitely know that people have cheated this way, there are too many other there who would, and too many prize tournies.
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It should be up to the players I'd they want their games casted. I watched the first Iccup live stream tournament one time and a player was concerned about cheating in the game . But thy could see if you were giving tips to the other player about their opponent . But they knew the ip adress of the person and if they were watching they knew and would be dQ. I don't think they the battle.net would have that and major tournaments. Those casters could just cast replays like what husky and HD do aswelll as day9.
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EPT
