EPTPlayers vs Casters - Page 7
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892 Posts
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:38 Martijn wrote: I do think players should always be on dnd by the way because some people do grief at times and fuck with games just because they dislike the other player, and maybe we can get a tool to monitor processes That's ridiculous. Just wait 20 minutes for the replay to be available and cast that. Problem solved, without demanding that players put some sort of spyware on their computers. and have messengers like skype/vent disallowed. Alexander Graham Bell says hello. As do the inventors of text messaging, having a second computer, and friends yelling from another room. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
Now really, it isn't necessary for those guys to ruin games for other the pros. Pro-gamers should be casted by pro-casters, it's really that simple. Pro-caster = someone with personality, doesn't lag a game, and knows what they're talking about. | ||
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
So long as the players, casters, and organizers keep the results secret then it is just as good if not better than being live. That includes not updating brackets until after a cast is done. I agree that casting off replays is the better solution. I always empathize with the frustrations of the players when they are battling lag as well as their opponent. | ||
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RxN
United States255 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:51 Aurdon wrote: Casting replays is fine so long as the results do not get out. That's what made HDH and KOTBH work was that people for the most part kept quiet about who the winners of each match were. So long as the players, casters, and organizers keep the results secret then it is just as good if not better than being live. That includes not updating brackets until after a cast is done. I agree that casting off replays is the better solution. I always empathize with the frustrations of the players when they are battling lag as well as their opponent. Sometimes players cannot keep their mouths shut however. I had iNcontroL spoil the ITL Grand Prix over and over. This idea is all good in theory but there is a metric ass-ton of things that can go wrong also. It's tough and both sides make good points.. On September 06 2010 11:57 RxN wrote: I see both sides of the arguments but I think people saying, "Oh hey, replays are definitely the way to go" don't take into account how hard it is to get players to upload their replays. There was another thread where this was brought up where it was mentioned that some players will only upload their replays after constant prodding and threats of suspension from whatever tourney or league they're in. So saying, "just wait 5 minutes" isn't really feasible unless the problem of players being confrontational about uploading their replays is fixed. Very good point. Getting the ITL Grand Prix replays was a total nightmare and that was only 15 people... | ||
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Jettster
United States73 Posts
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Guplup
United States11 Posts
I can't imagine how frustrating it must be trying to play, or for you progamers, do your job while others hinder your ability and are to stuborn to leave. I don't see why live casting is so important. If your not patiant enough to wait 10 minuits, then don't watch at all. | ||
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Martijn
Netherlands1219 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 1. I never send dont stream the games, i said dont stream the games live. get the replays as soon as 1 game is played by the players or a referee in the game and stream that (the most successful tournaments as stated in the OP were from replays not LIVE games.) Again you go with "the most successful tournaments" after I already pointed out why that's a terrible argument to use. If you want to have a discussion, discuss, don't repeat the same points. On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 2. You knew the results because you looked them up, have some self control And luckily I'm not an ass and would throw them all over the chat channel during a stream, but if you think that's not going to happen, well you present an extremely one-sided argument. On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 3. Even gosucup this morning, when they were casted "live" it was barely at 3k~, when it ended (last 4 games from replays) it was at like 3.2-3.5k viewers. I really don't think live viewership adds that many people. It becomes an issue when 1 person get live and another person casts replays so ofc ppl will watch from the live just so they can watch it first. It becomes the EXACT same issue if multiple people cast the same replay, or do you expect multiple streamers to all start a replay at the same time across several stream? So if a German caster needs a biobreak, we all have to wait for him to get off the toilet before we cast the game? On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 4. What tournament does this happen? You think 1k admins are going to host games for 1k players in every weekly esl? get real plz  No, but top 8, yes they should. On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 5. your not effected by lag tho we are. its very different trying to play and trying to cast a game in lag. If you're playing poorly but win, you still get paid. If you're playing poorly but win, people don't want to watch. Casters benefit from minimal lag. It's not like casters want to lag you and if SC2 had something like WC3's Waaagh!TV or CnC3's battlecast, we'd be all over it. Streamers don't want to be lagging you and I'm sure a lot of people have heard us growl over lag. On September 06 2010 11:19 HuK wrote: 6. I dont really understand what your point is here? Point is, if you hadn't gotten all the coverage you did during beta, you wouldn't have gotten picked up by an international team. As I remember it, you weren't an established BW player, odds are that without all the coverage you got and earned during beta, you wouldn't have gotten an invite to IEM Cologne and I'd have never gotten to meet you. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:38 Martijn wrote: Actually admins have the >exact< same tools to spot cheating this way as they did in broodwar. I do think players should always be on dnd by the way because some people do grief at times and fuck with games just because they dislike the other player, and maybe we can get a tool to monitor processes and have messengers like skype/vent disallowed. Which is why I said it? The difference being live streams in broodwar during tournaments were fairly rare. Now, every day there are live streamed tournaments for sc2 which is why it is a problem. The same old issues exist but the same countermeasures still exist. Livestreaming is a relatively new one. | ||
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airety
United States63 Posts
Also, if an organization/sponsor wants their caster to cast the event, it's based off replays, and one of the players sends replays to other casters? Do they get punished for that? It's basically the only way to make sure you get the content when its hot. If JoshSuth is the "official caster" chosen by the organizer, and HuK sends his replay to Raelcun too so that Raelcun can cast it, how do you handle that? How do you even prove it was HuK and not the other player? My example as is would never happen, but could something similar happen? It's as likely as cheating is using livestream info right now. I do agree however that there are way too many people observing games right now. Pulling up a "tournament" stream and seeing 8 observers... wtf? Are you kidding me? First of all, where are your manners people- just because a caster/famous player joins a game doesn't mean you can automatically join too and try and observe. And secondly- what kind of tournament representative allows that to even happen? There should be 2 people, max. | ||
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Martijn
Netherlands1219 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:44 kojinshugi wrote: That's ridiculous. Just wait 20 minutes for the replay to be available and cast that. Problem solved, without demanding that players put some sort of spyware on their computers. Alexander Graham Bell says hello. As do the inventors of text messaging, having a second computer, and friends yelling from another room. The point was that this was argued to be easier than using a maphack, so make it harder. Do you think downloading/running a maphack is harder than having a second person on the phone all game? | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
Save livestreaming for televised events under controlled conditions. Remote tournaments where people play from their home PCs and the casters are hundreds of miles away from the players should be casted off of replays. Nobody is going to notice a 1 or 2 hr delay and it makes things so much better and more fair for the players. | ||
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Denizen[9]
United States649 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On September 06 2010 12:02 Martijn wrote: The point was that this was argued to be easier than using a maphack, so make it harder. Do you think downloading/running a maphack is harder than having a second person on the phone all game? The difference being running a map hack, when blizzard suddenly bans in waves and that person is banned. Guess who wont be in tournaments anymore because they're a known hacker? The guy who just got banned. Obviously map hacking is easier, but simply ghosting in the stream or somebody else doing it for you is 100% undetectable. | ||
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HuK
Canada1591 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:59 Martijn wrote: Again you go with "the most successful tournaments" after I already pointed out why that's a terrible argument to use. If you want to have a discussion, discuss, don't repeat the same points. And luckily I'm not an ass and would throw them all over the chat channel during a stream, but if you think that's not going to happen, well you present an extremely one-sided argument. It becomes the EXACT same issue if multiple people cast the same replay, or do you expect multiple streamers to all start a replay at the same time across several stream? So if a German caster needs a biobreak, we all have to wait for him to get off the toilet before we cast the game? No, but top 8, yes they should. If you're playing poorly but win, you still get paid. If you're playing poorly but win, people don't want to watch. Casters benefit from minimal lag. It's not like casters want to lag you and if SC2 had something like WC3's Waaagh!TV or CnC3's battlecast, we'd be all over it. Streamers don't want to be lagging you and I'm sure a lot of people have heard us growl over lag. Point is, if you hadn't gotten all the coverage you did during beta, you wouldn't have gotten picked up by an international team. As I remember it, you weren't an established BW player, odds are that without all the coverage you got and earned during beta, you wouldn't have gotten an invite to IEM Cologne and I'd have never gotten to meet you. The only reason I restated what was already written is because you obviously didn't read it or else you wouldn't of posted what you posted. Close Chat. So like gosucup this morning have the players send the replays to one email address as soon as each game ends, I would much rather take 10 seconds and do that then have to deal with all the other bigger issues with live streaming. It's not an issue they want its and issue that they do. Yes but I could of gotten the save "coverage" had it been replays instead of "live", I'm not arguing there should never be any casters ever, I hate to repeat myself but it seems you don't understand. I'm arguing "live" casting vs "replay casting" right after the game is ended, not "casting" vs "replays". | ||
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Donner
Germany91 Posts
but, wow, thats stupid. what an easy way to cheat. very effective and undetectable. O_O | ||
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Martijn
Netherlands1219 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:20 GenoZStriker wrote: Live events are different Martijn because tournament organizers are not retarded to allow multiple streamers in one game and lag issues don't happen that often. Either way there will be spoilers due to the large amount of esports journalist doing live coverage. So have good rules and regulations when it comes to streaming, which I'm pretty sure I included in my first post. I myself have gone to the CraftCup admins and to the ZOTAC Cup admins and told them there really needs to be a set of clear rules and both cups are since taking action to ensure exactly that. Meanwhile I'm hearing go4sc2 is launching an initiative as well to set up rules for streamers. | ||
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news
892 Posts
Also saying that casting replays instantly after the game would affect the viewer in any way is absurd, whoever wanted to watch will still watch, just like everyone religiously watched TSL. It seems to me that you haven't been following actual STARCRAFT at all; not sure what community you came from but this is not how you deal with issues at all. | ||
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DreamScaR
Canada2127 Posts
On September 06 2010 12:10 Martijn wrote: So have good rules and regulations when it comes to streaming, which I'm pretty sure I included in my first post. I myself have gone to the CraftCup admins and to the ZOTAC Cup admins and told them there really needs to be a set of clear rules and both cups are since taking action to ensure exactly that. Meanwhile I'm hearing go4sc2 is launching an initiative as well to set up rules for streamers. If I remember reading right, leading up to the quarters or semi's anyone can cast if they so see fit and the players agree. Once it reaches said quarter/semi only a certain group will be able to. | ||
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