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1. Limit the number of casters
2. Only allow verified, professional casters (e.g. people who will leave if they cause lag)
3. Add a delay to the live streams, but not too heavy of a delay
I think the IEM Group Stages went really well today with just the two dedicated casters (iccup & glhf.tv), one on each match at each time. I don't like it when there's like 3 casters and a few obs too, people end up talking, lagging, and just being annoying. Also I've seen instances where it really felt like one of the players was watching the stream.
Cheating is definitely the big issue here, not lag or "pressure to the players" (<- nonsense).
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If I was playing for money I would not let any live stream of my games happen its just dumb as much as you want to please the community you need to eat and anyone with a friend or an extra laptop can see what is happening and no one has to know they cheated.
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On September 06 2010 14:20 alphafuzard wrote:
Is there no possible way for the stream to be delayed a few minutes?
Get some of our genius programmers on the case!
It would cost whoever runs the RTMP server some serious memory usage, so basically good luck. I'm not sure if it would be possible to do it on the streamers desktop, maybe if he had a beastly machine you could figure out a way to rig a delay, but honestly, why not just give the players a clean, lag free game, and cast the match when its over 10 mins later.
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Totally agree. Even LAN events can leave open the possibility for cheating (depending on the streams delay), via spectators filling people in on missed scouting information and the like. Or worse still, players overhearing the casters at a live LAN event.
When there's money on the line, people will cheat if they are able to.
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As someone who has run various tournaments that ask for replays to be sent in, I find it amusing for players to suggest that people just cast replays, when players never give them out. It takes so much time and harassment of a player just to get the replays you require for a tournament. Most players are under the idea that they're doing me or another tournament organizer a favor by playing. They think they can just show up without reading anything about the tournament, such as where to send replays, how to report results, or what the map pool is. There are the individual few who have of course been great and take the time to make sure they're doing everything right. But 80% of players don't read rules or news about tournaments and just look for the prize pool and time.
I'll happily organize tournaments in the future that have delayed casts of one hour (any sort of tournament that has games casted a week after they are done is asking for leaks and spoils) that are from replays, when all the players in a tournament actually take the time to give me the replays that I ask from them.
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100% support. I watch many casts of pro matches, and the only thing I care about is seeing good games where both players played to their best.
If live casting affects this in any tiny way at all, for God's sake, just cast it 15 minutes later off a replay.
But players, please provide us the replays ;D
On September 06 2010 14:40 Alou wrote:
As someone who has run various tournaments that ask for replays to be sent in, I find it amusing for players to suggest that people just cast replays, when players never give them out.
It's so easy, put in your tournaments rules that not uploading a replay gets you booted, worked nicely at IEM.
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Even easier, have 1 tounry rep in each game and have HIM save the replay to give out to the casters after. No lag for players, guaranteed replays, and the fans get to see the games. E z p z
Dont say there is too many games going on, im sure u could find enough volunteers in the community to obs and save replays.
The point is that the players should be #1 priority. If a player is lagging, like huk was, playing from Canada on eu, every bit of lag is amplified. Casters need to show some respect for the people giving them something to cast.
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I agree 100%. The only streamer should be whoever runs the tournament. Even then the issue of cheating is pretty big if it has no delay (even with delay).
On September 06 2010 09:55 jamesr12 wrote:
live casting is good for lan style events
bad for online tourneys
Summed up it quite nicely.
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I find it surprising that so many games are cast 100% live solely for the reason people can easily have the stream open in the background, especially the higher rounds. It benefits everyone to cast the replays (fair games are much more enjoyable, right?)
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The only tournament I've watched all the way through was the HDH. I like replays because you can watch them at your own pace. As long as the shoutcasters sound like the action is as new to them as it is to you then I don't care if it's already happend (and unlike most people I don't have a problem with HD or husky). All things considered between lagging obs and cheating I think replays are far superior to live casts.
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Organizers really need to be prepared for both live casting and replay casting possibilities. Sometimes unforeseen issues come up where live casting isn't really a good option, and I think these rules which force players to have streamers is kind of unfair to the players if an issue comes up. Not to mention when a famous player like Idra is playing in the early round of a tourny, a streamer could demand to stream the game when everyone else can just play their opponent on their own, so I'd imagine that would get really annoying for the more famous players to have to be bothered/slowed down by casters in the early stages of a tournament.
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I watch progames for the quality of the play. If the lag kills the quality I may as well be watching random VODs of any Diamond player.
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On September 06 2010 15:33 Grond wrote:
I watch progames for the quality of the play. If the lag kills the quality I may as well be watching random VODs of any Diamond player.
same... i hate it when im watching a replay pack and you start seeing things like both players saying leave leave leave leave over and over =/
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Look at every sport in the world!!
Premier League Football, baseball in the USA etc etc. In ALL of these sports there is not a single commentator that is more important than the player. How many casters get paid in non esports more than say Wayne Rooney? NOT ONE!!
If we want esports to grow to like it is in Korea, companies need one official and maybe 2 casters max!! And alot better organisation.
Some of the casters think they have a god given right to be there, there are only two people that have that, the two players.
14 observers in a game is totally ridiculous.
Tell me what is the point? I would love to be an observer in a pro game, but if I lagged the joint up and I was asked by a player to leave I would have no hesitation in doing so, but I have lost count how many times in vods or replays I have seen an observer asked to leave and they just stay right where they are.
Very bad manners in my honest opinion.
I totally agree with Huk on this one.
If it weren't for the players people would have no one to watch.
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What's so great about live? Upload the replays as soon as the game is done and watch it 2 minutes after. I"d rather watch a game where both players played to the best of their ability under optimal conditions. I have watched many a replay of HuK - and when the game ends you see "HuK has left the game, player x has left the game" - which is them followed by 59 randoms also leaving the game; so I can see where he is coming from.
To be honest, it should and is always is up to the players. Let them decide how they want to play. They should not feel pressured to allow unnecessary others to live steam / observe their games.
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On September 06 2010 15:01 azzu wrote:100% support. I watch many casts of pro matches, and the only thing I care about is seeing good games where both players played to their best. If live casting affects this in any tiny way at all, for God's sake, just cast it 15 minutes later off a replay. But players, please provide us the replays ;D Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 14:40 Alou wrote:
As someone who has run various tournaments that ask for replays to be sent in, I find it amusing for players to suggest that people just cast replays, when players never give them out. It's so easy, put in your tournaments rules that not uploading a replay gets you booted, worked nicely at IEM.
We've still had to do our fair share of threatening and harassing to get replays uploaded also. I doubt a single tournament can have even 50% of matches upload replays without having to harass some people to do it since most players seem to not even bother to learn how to properly report results. (Talking about qualifiers)
On September 06 2010 15:08 Fodder03 wrote:
Even easier, have 1 tounry rep in each game and have HIM save the replay to give out to the casters after. No lag for players, guaranteed replays, and the fans get to see the games. E z p z
Dont say there is too many games going on, im sure u could find enough volunteers in the community to obs and save replays.
Yea, sure. I highly doubt you can find 250ish volunteers to trust to obs and save the replay and send it in without a fair bit of failure and possibly cheating involved.
On September 06 2010 15:42 Danze wrote:
What's so great about live? Upload the replays as soon as the game is done and watch it 2 minutes after.
If you can find a way to get players to upload the replays without constantly having to threaten them with bans because they refuse to, then that might be a possibility. Until then, it's not an option because too many players feel the need to refuse to upload replays until someone personally has to threaten them to do it.
On September 06 2010 15:37 Drteeth wrote:
Look at every sport in the world!!
Premier League Football, baseball in the USA etc etc. In ALL of these sports there is not a single commentator that is more important than the player. How many casters get paid in non esports more than say Wayne Rooney? NOT ONE!
John Madden got paid roughly 8x the average salary in the NFL.
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Martijn, as a viewer, I personally will be making sure not to watch the stream of anyone I see streaming live. I feel like it is utterly selfish for Casters to refuse to wait like 10 minutes...ridiculous. After reading this post, I'm only watching replays or casters doing replays.
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The issue was raised because of "a lot" of casters in the games. I don't think anyone is arguing for 10+ casters in the games.
That issue is easy to fix: only a few casters in the games.
Replay vs live is another matter. I remember Day9 telling how difficult it was to get the replays from the players. Besides, if you cast from replays there is no way to schedule the final as the start time depends on the duration of the first game. While everyone waits some moron spiols the results.
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Like Raelcun and a billion other people in this thread have said, if only 1 official streamer streams (maybe 2-3 MAX for different languages in certain circumstances) the problem is solved and lag won't be an issue. if there is any lag from the casters, they leave, and they cast the replay. done. having a fuckton of casters is stupid and only makes for worse game quality, especially when people who spend hours a day practicing get screwed over because of lag
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EPT
