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On September 06 2010 16:02 Elegy wrote:
Like Raelcun and a billion other people in this thread have said, if only 1 official streamer streams (maybe 2-3 MAX for different languages in certain circumstances) the problem is solved and lag won't be an issue. if there is any lag from the casters, they leave, and they cast the replay. done. having a fuckton of casters is stupid and only makes for worse game quality, especially when people who spend hours a day practicing get screwed over because of lag
How does this fix cheating? Do you not think that 900 Euro is enough to make someone open their browser and be able to view a stream in a few clicks?
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On September 06 2010 15:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Martijn, as a viewer, I personally will be making sure not to watch the stream of anyone I see streaming live. I feel like it is utterly selfish for Casters to refuse to wait like 10 minutes...ridiculous. After reading this post, I'm only watching replays or casters doing replays.
And so the narrowminded bandwagoning against casters begins full-on. This is exactly the sort of thing that TotalBiscuit warned against, and ironically got banned for.
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For replay casts the result of a game is already clear the the caster most of the time and that will spoil the cast, because the excitement is lost. Live casts for big tournaments (number of players and not the prize money) are really the best way to do it, because there are too many people to check up and the results will be easily visible in the tournament brackets. Spoilers are no fun.
I think the players need to get used to the pressure too, because SC2 is becoming an eSport and every sport lives and falls with the spectators. Sport without spectators does not work and even the pressure of being watched by thousands of nerds live can work to some players advantage.
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On September 06 2010 16:03 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 16:02 Elegy wrote:
Like Raelcun and a billion other people in this thread have said, if only 1 official streamer streams (maybe 2-3 MAX for different languages in certain circumstances) the problem is solved and lag won't be an issue. if there is any lag from the casters, they leave, and they cast the replay. done. having a fuckton of casters is stupid and only makes for worse game quality, especially when people who spend hours a day practicing get screwed over because of lag How does this fix cheating? Do you not think that 900 Euro is enough to make someone open their browser and be able to view a stream in a few clicks?
oh wow, could have sworn i typed in a part about stream delay. weird T_T.
Surely it is possible for a streaming service to implement a delay of, say, 10 minutes to the stream. Arbitrary number of course and might not be sufficient, but its either that or cast the replays (and as G2wolf said, getting replays can be very difficult and i imagine its a frustrating process).
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On September 06 2010 16:04 Alphaes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 15:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Martijn, as a viewer, I personally will be making sure not to watch the stream of anyone I see streaming live. I feel like it is utterly selfish for Casters to refuse to wait like 10 minutes...ridiculous. After reading this post, I'm only watching replays or casters doing replays. And so the narrowminded bandwagoning against casters begins full-on. This is exactly the sort of thing that TotalBiscuit warned against, and ironically got banned for.
I realize I am being very
stubborn on the issue, but I just see it as such an easy way to cheat. I feel like it is too much of a temptation for some people. In a 200+ player huge tournament, its hard to be confident every game was legit.
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On September 06 2010 16:04 Alphaes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 15:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Martijn, as a viewer, I personally will be making sure not to watch the stream of anyone I see streaming live. I feel like it is utterly selfish for Casters to refuse to wait like 10 minutes...ridiculous. After reading this post, I'm only watching replays or casters doing replays. And so the narrowminded bandwagoning against casters begins full-on. This is exactly the sort of thing that TotalBiscuit warned against, and ironically got banned for.
Honestly, I think this isn't a bad thing at all. The majority of amateur casters are mediocre/sub-par and the fact that they all feel entitled to lag up an event is absurd. If anything it'll at least weed out this nasty attitude that has plagued new casters and at least force them to be courteous and just live-cast reps.
Ok I guess my tone is a bit harsh. The biggest problem I think is when casters feel that they NEED to be in a game. I just am wondering where common courtesy went - if you lag the game, just leave. Anytime I try to cast a friends game just for a group of other friends, and lag issues come up, I instantly stop since I know how frustrating lag can be.
If anyone has played a game with unberable lag they should sympathize with the players. That means anyone who's played SC2 at all. It seems that "bandwagonning" against this mass casting issue would produce a lot more good at this point.
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I really don't know why people care so much about the games being casted live, as long as the players don't spoil the game results seeing the replay 10 minutes after the game was played is the same thing as watching it live...
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The most important thing is the integrity of the game. VOD please.
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Osaka27152 Posts
On September 06 2010 16:04 Alphaes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 15:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Martijn, as a viewer, I personally will be making sure not to watch the stream of anyone I see streaming live. I feel like it is utterly selfish for Casters to refuse to wait like 10 minutes...ridiculous. After reading this post, I'm only watching replays or casters doing replays. And so the narrowminded bandwagoning against casters begins full-on. This is exactly the sort of thing that TotalBiscuit warned against, and ironically got banned for.
Dude, it is one guy. Don't go nailing yourself to a cross just yet.
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People who say, Players should be allowed to say that caster or obs cant be in the game.
I'd say its completely up to the casters and the admins of the tournie, as its their money they put into it, if they want coverage of it, they should be able to cover the a match.
Its just bullshit to say that its up to the player, if they dont wanna get casted, cus it lags? dont play then, no one force you to play.
Go make a tournie yourself with your own money as prizes, and then suddenly, you are not allowed to watch the game, cus the player dont want to. its unfair to the host, and he wants coverage, he should be allowed that.
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I feel like one caster could be put into the game... I mean is the lag that bad compared to just having no casters? I feel like some events being live streamed is fun and quite neat, I mean there's definitely a difference in watching something live and something that's pre-recorded.
That being said however, from a player perspective I can see totally see the desire to have the most desirable and comfortable gaming environment.
I really feel like this is an issue that Blizzard should have dealt with.
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On September 06 2010 15:43 G2Wolf wrote:
Yea, sure. I highly doubt you can find 250ish volunteers to trust to obs and save the replay and send it in without a fair bit of failure and possibly cheating involved.
Why would you need 250 people? If there are 3 groups of casters casting a single event, you would need a maximum of 3 people. They can only cast one game at a time, and if they were casting live only a maximum of 3 games could be casted. This puts 3 observers (not including admins) with a maximum of 1 per game out there instead of 8+ with possible overlap.
(This isn't directed to you in particular, just in general) I don't think it's a lot to ask for, especially considering the stance most casters are taking. If viewership and casting are so absolutely integral to the propagation of SC2 as an online e-sport, then get organized and put some effort into how it's done instead of letting 10 groups of people fumble around randomly lagging games at every online event.
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Wouldn't a simple rule of making the winner of every match have to upload/send the replays to an admin/tourney site to be able to advance eliminate the problem of having to 'threaten' or 'hassle' players to send their reps in? I mean.. you don't wanna send in your reps? np, get dq'd. Then have the replays casted to eliminate all the other cheating/lag/retardedness/stress issues that are being piled up on top of the players.
offtopic
ps; martijn, are you the same one from CAL?
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There is something different about watching events live. Why do people stay up late night to watch IEM or GSL ? Because there is a bit of magic to watching something live. When you watch a football match , you want to watch it live. Unless you are specially interested in the game there is very little chance people watching it when they send it later on.
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On September 06 2010 16:46 Sqq wrote:
There is something different about watching events live. Why do people stay up late night to watch IEM or GSL ? Because there is a bit of magic to watching something live. When you watch a football match , you want to watch it live. Unless you are specially interested in the game there is very little chance people watching it when they send it later on.
i'd be more inclined to believe it's impatience
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On September 06 2010 16:15 Skeyser wrote:
I really don't know why people care so much about the games being casted live, as long as the players don't spoil the game results seeing the replay 10 minutes after the game was played is the same thing as watching it live...
With any tournament with more than 16 players and has 359374953475 viewers, there's absolutely no way that the results won't get leaked almost instantly.
On September 06 2010 16:35 sikatrix wrote:
Wouldn't a simple rule of making the winner of every match have to upload/send the replays to an admin/tourney site to be able to advance eliminate the problem of having to 'threaten' or 'hassle' players to send their reps in? I mean.. you don't wanna send in your reps? np, get dq'd. Then have the replays casted to eliminate all the other cheating/lag/retardedness/stress issues that are being piled up on top of the players.
offtopic
ps; martijn, are you the same one from CAL?
The problem is with the big (128+ person tournaments) is that people want to just play their matches and start on their next match right away without uploading. The problem is too widespread, it would result in 40% of a tournament being dq'd after the first round.
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Good point HuK, however, there are a few problems with this in a tournament format.
For one, LANs.
LANs, due to them attracting real audience (and with real I mean that the people are actually there), can't be played without a live stream. It just wouldn't work, and it wouldn't be as enjoyable for the people watching as it should.
Secondly, as far as I know, tournaments follow a tight scheduale, which means you can't get rid of the Admin in there, anyway. And if we look at this, too, from a LAN perspective, you would end up with a delay of the games(due to them getting casted after the actual game finishes) , which means the event will go on for a longer time, which, from a spectator PoV, can't be a good thing. What if you end up in an epic 45 minute long macro game vs IdrA in the 7th game of a BO7 in the finals, and as you've finished, the casters simply wont have enough time to cast the match, due to the event ending (Again, LAN perspective here).
I like the general idea you posted about, however I do not see any simple ways to get around the problem at hands, especially at a LAN event.
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I prefer live streams, tbh.... Feels moar epix :D
There's no way to stop cheating anyway (like map hax), so if players want to cheat, there's nothing stopping them. The stream makes it easier, though.
If any observers lag, they should leave immediately, no matter what. And if they don't, there name should go on a public list of blocked observers and be barred from observing any other games in the tourney.
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For me replays take away most of the fun at such daily tournaments, since results spread too fast and i'm one of the type who checks every coverage site to see results. For example, you have to report your lose at Zotac Cup. So you can check the bracket and see the result.
Given i know the result, live games are boring and i'd rather watch a stream like the one of CellaWeRRa. I know it's my fault for checking results, but it also makes those coverage sites, they try to get results as fast as possible to be the best coverage site!
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Get rid of livestreams and just send the replays after the game for people to cast it. It wouldn't really make much of a difference for people who watch it.
The guy who streams just waits for the replay, talks whatever he wants to talk about in the meantime, he downloads the replay and he starts casting. Everyone would watch the game just 2-4 minutes after it has been played.
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EPT
