EPTCan't a compromise be reached? Maybe just 1 caster per game? The admin should not be in-game. The admin's responsibility is to pick a responsible caster, and give that caster the responsibility of judging some things, including whether DCs were close or not.
Players vs Casters - Page 12
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
Karliath
United States2214 Posts
Can't a compromise be reached? Maybe just 1 caster per game? The admin should not be in-game. The admin's responsibility is to pick a responsible caster, and give that caster the responsibility of judging some things, including whether DCs were close or not. | ||
|
Papillon
Germany131 Posts
| ||
|
Forsti.henning
Germany220 Posts
1. games need a lock button to prevent people from f list following 2. admins need to create all games beginning with the quarters with one english and maybe one stream in their native language (for their local sponsor). so we come down to players + 1-4 (co)caster + 1 admin that leaves the game after creation. 3. i can not understand why observers are allowed in any kind of serious tournament. Especially when the tourney is online everybody feels free to join and sneaks in. that is the best solution and it is already fact for ESL tournaments. sadly its tough to organize and there are still waiting periods, but this method solves tons of problems. | ||
|
Frankon
3054 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:40 HuK wrote: Hi I'm really bad at this but I'm going to try since it comes up so often. Almost all top players as far as I can think at some point or another have had some issues with this (including Idra, morrow, myself, etc. etc.) so I think it would be healthy for it to be discuss publicly. The issues with games being livestreamed: Negatives - Lag Lag with usually 1 video guy, 2 casters, 1 admin ( 4 people in general) for the main stream is a lot of players even if it only adds a slight amount of lag/delay to game play on top of other issues players might be having including cross realm play. This in no way includes every other person who wants to cast/stream the games. - Cheating Believe it or not people are not always moral. On the contrary I find it hard to believe as an intelligent human being that people won't cheat. As far as I know no "livestreams" have any delay besides a few seconds added to their stream. So something such as Gosucup which I played today where 900 euro is the 1st place and the games are being live streamed sooner or later someone will cheat if it hasn't already happened (which I'm sure it has). Other then that it is also almost undetectable and can't be proven. I am no way accusing adelscott of doing this just saying it is a possibility in the past/future/present for such especially with money involved. Obviously at LANs this is not an issue. - Stress Thats right boohoo stress to the players, but you have no idea from week to week to play in ESL how many messages from legit and unlegit people you get asking to stream your games. If people had it their way every single game I play and most top players in general would be full with different streamers who constantly lag and complain about how they are more important to the other. More importantly when there is lag even on screen peoples names popping up, they don't leave. This is ontop of trying to focus on playing, dealing with admins, other players, etc. etc. Positives -Live games You get to watch games 5-10 minutes before they could just be streamed as replays when players send them in is the only real advantage I see from "live games". But is it really worth it considered the negative effects? Now many people are going to say, "but if its live it will attract more viewers." Which isn't really true, two of the biggest tournaments/most successful were both done off of pure replays. (HDH / DAY9 KOTB) I will do my best to keep this thread very open and edit any good input people have to the OP from either side, if I fall behind feel free admins to do it if you wish. Ok lets review this. Lag. If some one plays in EU tournament against other EU players (with EU casters) and lags... well thats his fault not the casters. Also many "friends" of players join the games instead of casters. And most of the time its them that are lagging. Ok its been posted before that tournament should have official streamers, and only those streamers should be permitted to stream that tourney. If there are few streamers the admin should assign them before the tournament the "path" in the bracket that they keep on no matter what. (Admin could have set the rules of assigning path like this. 1. language of the player 2. number of viewers last week 3. some other way.) Basically the tourney admins can do a lot to minimize the so called lags. Cheating Well there arent many players with a mind eye to quess the tech switch or path ideally. Good admins and streamers would pick this up and report to tournament admins for a check. And no this kind of cheating is almost the easiest to discover. Stress Okay so a 24h long tournament is less stressful than a few PM about if they can cast the game? Cause in a Bo3 there is a chance that it can take even up to a 1h30minutes. So the each round of the tournament will be delayed by such time. Why? cause viewers dont like the spoilers (match history or brackets). People like watching Live cause there is always a hint of uncertainty. Will there be a turnaround victory? Will the underdog win?. Watching the replay when they now the results its bad. One of the reason i switch off chat during the HDH (people always spoiling reasults). In Live events you always discuss the plays in chat. Exchange your views between other viewers. Oh btw. Niether Huk or Morrow respect viewers or sponsors. Look at MGL (for Huk) and first day of IEM for Morrow. | ||
|
Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
Livestream is harder but it still works, you can also stream on bad internet it works basically the same way. There are also more elegant ways to delay the stream but that is by far the most simple. edit: This is why after loading screens on big maps in particular or spending far too long on loading screens the streams will lag ever so slightly adding to some minor delay that adds up over time. | ||
|
aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
I personally, don't think there's much of a difference between watching casted replays or watching livestreams, and think that as long as the players are forced to submit their replays or be kicked from the tournament, that it seems practical. | ||
|
chrisolo
Germany2607 Posts
I have to admit, personally I like real live streams much more, because I feel like being in the games, but if this hurts the gaming experience of the players, this can not be done. And the only caster that should have (if it has to be) the right to force the players to let him observe, should only be the official caster (f.e. in ESL TaKe, all other get a "bye"). | ||
|
Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
| ||
|
G2Wolf
United States261 Posts
On September 06 2010 17:40 chrisolo wrote: I definitly agree to HuK's OP. Players should be granted the right to deny livestreams, IF they promise to send replays directly afterwards to an admin or a caster. And then, you have to delay the next round of the tournament by the length of that match +5-10 min so that the result doesn't get leaked, or the replay doesn't get shown because casters will be busy casting the next round already and, unless the match was an upset, nobody will bother to go back to watch the replay. Sorry, tournaments have schedules to stick to and can't have one random match delay a whole round by 30min when the tournament should be done after 3-4 hours without delays. There's no way the replay-streaming option can work for most online tournaments when they are trying to get 512 people to finish a tournament in one day because it'll add so many delays and spoilers all around. Replay-streaming could work for small player cups, but for a lot of the big (128+) tournaments like Go4SC2, it simply has to be live or it can't be casted. | ||
|
Silver~Guy
Canada45 Posts
The lag issue is a problem and should not be ignored, if you want the best competitions you have ever seen, every second counts. Cheating is a possible problem since game-sense and cheating are hard to distinguish. Stress? Well, I don't know if that will be going away but we can at least mitigate it... Ideally I think the future of streams should look like this: [people in the game] players admin who video captures (who does not cast) Admin (otherwise called 1st streamer) lags video by 2 minutes to a hub with a password. Caster (otherwise called 2nd streamer) picks up the stream and recasts with audio to general public. Spectators watch 2nd stream. benefits: -keeps game almost-live -limits lag -minimize the effectiveness of cheating drawbacks: -more coordination for admin/streamers/casters The drawback will be dealt with by formalizing the process by which the admin and casters interact (which will naturally happen after an initial testing period). | ||
|
chaudepisse
9 Posts
You can argue as much as you want about players not beeing that important, i m sure one less good player dont matter, but once gaming sites start to announce that many great players refuse to play in your tournament because you cant run them properly, you ll give up all your business to other tournament that will listen to players and will have a much more interesting playing field than yours. | ||
|
Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:00 Silver~Guy wrote: Hello as a player I'd like to weigh in on this issue. The lag issue is a problem and should not be ignored, if you want the best competitions you have ever seen, every second counts. Cheating is a possible problem since game-sense and cheating are hard to distinguish. Stress? Well, I don't know if that will be going away but we can at least mitigate it... Ideally I think the future of streams should look like this: [people in the game] players admin who video captures (who does not cast) Admin (otherwise called 1st streamer) lags video by 2 minutes to a hub with a password. Caster (otherwise called 2nd streamer) picks up the stream and recasts with audio to general public. Spectators watch 2nd stream. benefits: -keeps game almost-live -limits lag -minimize the effectiveness of cheating drawbacks: -more coordination for admin/streamers/casters The drawback will be dealt with by formalizing the process by which the admin and casters interact (which will naturally happen after an initial testing period). Care to provide the hundreds possibly thousands of dollars on server support for this setup? edit: When it comes down to it lag happens even without streams, in normal situations with the minimum number of streamers in game it's not an issue. Only in stupid situations in which there are too many people saying "let me cast" and the admins dont put their foot down does this ever become an issue. Players need to accept that in order to be competing for the money they will have to have streams in their games, and streams have to recognize that if they're causing undue lag they need to fix their shit. This is a give and take situation. | ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On September 06 2010 17:32 Frankon wrote: Cheating Well there arent many players with a mind eye to quess the tech switch or path ideally. Good admins and streamers would pick this up and report to tournament admins for a check. And no this kind of cheating is almost the easiest to discover. that makes no sense at all. of course you can benefit easily from a stream without being caught.. theres so much information to be had that can be used in ways that you'd never be able to prove. as far as i know no one has been caught cheating off a stream in any real tournament so far. you really think no one has even tried it in all those tournaments? every streamed game? of course people are cheating. the thing is theres no way to prove it or prevent it. On September 06 2010 17:38 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I ignored the cheating part because my stream is consistantly a good several minutes behind anyway. I've had people try to cheat off my stream in ladder games only to realize oh fuck it's behind and I'm not getting any useful information. I had one guy even tell me this straight up, cheating is easily solved by delaying the stream. games can be changed by an expo remaining hidden for the entire game, well over 5 minutes after its built. thats not a valid argument. its less dangerous than a normal live stream, its still bad. | ||
|
chaudepisse
9 Posts
| ||
|
Frankon
3054 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:02 chaudepisse wrote: Tournament organiser should listen to players, i cant wait for idra, morrow and huk to find many players and announce a systematic boycott of every tournament involving livecast without a huge delay or replay casting. Im all for it... Normal pro-players (or even casual players) would be hurt by this the most since the price poll would shrink dramatically. Then most sponsors would pull out and Huk, morrow but not Idra (he has a brain. He plays in serious tournaments - with live streaming ;P not the weekly ones  ) will be fighting for carrots/ | ||
|
Therick
Norway324 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:02 chaudepisse wrote: Tournament organiser should listen to players, i cant wait for idra, morrow and huk to find many players and announce a systematic boycott of every tournament involving livecast without a huge delay or replay casting. You can argue as much as you want about players not beeing that important, i m sure one less good player dont matter, but once gaming sites start to announce that many great players refuse to play in your tournament because you cant run them properly, you ll give up all your business to other tournament that will listen to players and will have a much more interesting playing field than yours. So like, every tournie then? If they boycott tournies, what will that profit them? nothing, maybe abit drama in the start but it wud be shrugged off in like 1 week, and maybe we get to see new players shine, the boycotting players lose money by not playing, yeah, seems like a viable choice ._.' | ||
|
Macavity
United States83 Posts
Not a single caster has any experience in broadcasting. Broadcasting is something you need to be trained to do. This is how it is done in real sports. This is why SC2 broadcasters sound so bad. If we have pro players, we need pro casters. Casting is probably putting people away instead of drawing them in. Best of all worlds: have the players stream themselves and cast themselves. Instead of having people on the Internet who shouldn't even be in the game, who are probably Bronze Level players with big egos, the players know what they are thinking and can commentate on themselves. There are already plenty of live streams where this is occurring. It is far more fun, from an audience's perspective, to hear the player's thoughts come directly from the player instead of some "caster". Granted, many players don't speak English (or whatever language is the audience). If someone wants to 'cast', let them download the replay and see if they can pull an audience with their 'amazing commentary'. But I think it is torture to force the audience to go through a caster in order to watch a game. (There is an advantage to live streaming where it is only when seeing it from the player's perspective. Sure, I can download BratOK's replays. But it is a different experience actually watching him click a gazillion times everywhere. But for the most part, I am fine with casting from replays such as was done with the King of the Beta Tournament. Our 'caster' friends should go get a real job.) | ||
|
Frankon
3054 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:26 Macavity wrote: Why do we need casters at all? Ok lets put it like this. No casters = no sponsors = tourneys for carrots. If there are no casters then who will say who sponsored the toruney or put the sponsor overlay? You cant do it to a replay. So no advertisment for sponsor means no money from sponsor. Do the math. As Martjin posted before players are dependant on casters. Who ever heard about Huk before Attero hyped him during beta as best Protoss in NA when he was still in VT. | ||
|
Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:06 IdrA wrote: that makes no sense at all. of course you can benefit easily from a stream without being caught.. theres so much information to be had that can be used in ways that you'd never be able to prove. as far as i know no one has been caught cheating off a stream in any real tournament so far. you really think no one has even tried it in all those tournaments? every streamed game? of course people are cheating. the thing is theres no way to prove it or prevent it. games can be changed by an expo remaining hidden for the entire game, well over 5 minutes after its built. thats not a valid argument. its less dangerous than a normal live stream, its still bad. Point taken, but players need to realize that this is not a situation in which they get the final say. The sponsors do as they are the ones providing the $$ in which they are fighting over. Not every tournament will be in a lan situation where you can be certain no one is cheating, playing online tournaments has certain risks such as battlenet deciding to drop you randomly, lag (it happens even with no stream), and possibilities of cheating with or without the stream. Tournaments can help minimize these risks to the best of their abilities but they will still occur no matter what happens because of the very nature of it being an online tournament. When it comes down to it the portion of viewers who want to see it live for that extra excitement factor is a large percentage this is why we've had tournaments who went out of their way to keep the fact that they were from replays or pre recorded hidden for as long as possible until the viewers were already hooked. There are certain measures to help reduce cheating such as making players set busy status in game but this can be circumvented with ventrilo, listening in on their own etc etc. But when it comes down to it the extra level of organization required for replay casting is too much for the smaller scale tournaments (who cares if you get a DQ cuz you didnt send the replay if the tournament prize is unimportant to the player.) Oh and by the way delaying tournaments for replays causes issues with games being spoiled. Lets be frank people are jerks, they will look through player profiles and spoil results in chat they will post on threads just enjoying messing with people who dont want to know the results. There have been situations in the past where a top player has intentionally posted a spoiler on the tournament thread that was casting from replays after they were eliminated and refused to edit the post. As a tournament admin for 3 years on PGTour and iCCup even when there are rules to require replay uploads enforcing them for every game in a large scale tournament is largely impossible. Players can upload dummy replays, especially with blizzard changing the replay formatting every patch so the file can go back to view the proper patch. This causes an issue where automatic parsing of replays isnt always possible and sorting through every replay to make sure the ones provided are in fact the correct games is not possible. And trust me over many years on iCCup a lot of players just uploaded fake replays instead of putting in the effort they did not care because the prize was not enough. Once you catch on to the fact that it is a fake replay it is most likely too late as they are playing in further round(s) of the tournament in a large scale event. Even wrangling replays from top players can be tough see IEM group stages still missing Huk vs Machine replays http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/america/sc2/championship/match/19676021/ in a major event with several thousand dollars on the line. Ironically involving the OP who claims we should just cast from replays. So basically in the small tournaments players might not care enough to provide replays and take the DQ, big tournaments are either playing too many games to keep track of this or are too high profile and big scale so that disqualifying someone for merely not providing replays causes massive controversy and rage. Can you imagine if ESL disqualified Huk for not uploading those replays in a timely manner? Machine won but did not advance so whose responsibility is it? Stop and think about how much backlash there would be about that. Ultimately dealing with replays causes so much more time and effort from everyone involved and causes so much trouble on all ends of the equation that what is the plus side? The third part of the OP about stress? Yeah worse with replays for every player involved. Most of the top players know eachother they practice with eachother and are pretty confident that they are not cheating even in online play. Most of the time if someone is it becomes rather obvious as I've been in situations where it was in question if someone was cheating off my stream so we backed off the casting to test it and the player made it very obvious by the way they react to the change of casting. It's not the perfect solution but ultimately it's what the sponsors and viewers want to see and they're the ones providing the $$ for you to play over. | ||
|
DreamScaR
Canada2127 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:26 Macavity wrote: Why do we need casters at all? Everyone watching knows what the Starcraft 2 units are. We don't need someone to explain what a destructible rock is or that a siege tank can cause trouble when placed on a cliff. We really don't need people doing fake enthusiasm during each attack or drop. Not a single caster has any experience in broadcasting. Broadcasting is something you need to be trained to do. This is how it is done in real sports. This is why SC2 broadcasters sound so bad. If we have pro players, we need pro casters. Casting is probably putting people away instead of drawing them in. Best of all worlds: have the players stream themselves and cast themselves. Instead of having people on the Internet who shouldn't even be in the game, who are probably Bronze Level players with big egos, the players know what they are thinking and can commentate on themselves. There are already plenty of live streams where this is occurring. It is far more fun, from an audience's perspective, to hear the player's thoughts come directly from the player instead of some "caster". Granted, many players don't speak English (or whatever language is the audience). If someone wants to 'cast', let them download the replay and see if they can pull an audience with their 'amazing commentary'. But I think it is torture to force the audience to go through a caster in order to watch a game. (There is an advantage to live streaming where it is only when seeing it from the player's perspective. Sure, I can download BratOK's replays. But it is a different experience actually watching him click a gazillion times everywhere. But for the most part, I am fine with casting from replays such as was done with the King of the Beta Tournament. Our 'caster' friends should go get a real job.) Thought I'd put my little bit on one part here.. allow me to bold it =] I work in Radio Broadcasting, I was also shoutcasting Broodwar before Livestream was even a concept and WGTour was still the dominating force with PGTour getting it's early starts. Yes, none of us have experience or are actual broadcasters. | ||
| ||
