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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
1) Cheating. This is a ticking time bomb. Whether someone actively plays with the stream next to them or by semi-accident as a flat-mate sitting nearby starts giving a few tips this WILL happen. It's completely untracable too. 2) Stress. The players and good games are by far the most important thing. 3) Lag. Again, game quality is most important. Lag completely ruins the spectacle and validity of the result. | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:37 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: As a tournament admin for 3 years on PGTour and iCCup even when there are rules to require replay uploads enforcing them for every game in a large scale tournament is largely impossible. Players can upload dummy replays, especially with blizzard changing the replay formatting every patch so the file can go back to view the proper patch. This causes an issue where automatic parsing of replays isnt always possible and sorting through every replay to make sure the ones provided are in fact the correct games is not possible. And trust me over many years on iCCup a lot of players just uploaded fake replays instead of putting in the effort they did not care because the prize was not enough. Once you catch on to the fact that it is a fake replay it is most likely too late as they are playing in further round(s) of the tournament in a large scale event. Even wrangling replays from top players can be tough see IEM group stages still missing Huk vs Machine replays http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/america/sc2/championship/match/19676021/ in a major event with several thousand dollars on the line. Ironically involving the OP who claims we should just cast from replays. So basically in the small tournaments players might not care enough to provide replays and take the DQ, big tournaments are either playing too many games to keep track of this or are too high profile and big scale so that disqualifying someone for merely not providing replays causes massive controversy and rage. Can you imagine if ESL disqualified Huk for not uploading those replays in a timely manner? Machine won but did not advance so whose responsibility is it? Stop and think about how much backlash there would be about that. Ultimately dealing with replays causes so much more time and effort from everyone involved and causes so much trouble on all ends of the equation that what is the plus side? The third part of the OP about stress? Yeah worse with replays for every player involved. Most of the top players know eachother they practice with eachother and are pretty confident that they are not cheating even in online play. Most of the time if someone is it becomes rather obvious as I've been in situations where it was in question if someone was cheating off my stream so we backed off the casting to test it and the player made it very obvious by the way they react to the change of casting. It's not the perfect solution but ultimately it's what the sponsors and viewers want to see and they're the ones providing the $$ for you to play over. Why is having a ref in the match not a solution here? He can deal with replays as well as be there to enforce any possible rulings (ie making sure players are on time). | ||
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FuriousJodo
United States212 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:59 heyoka wrote: Why is having a ref in the match not a solution here? He can deal with replays as well as be there to enforce any possible rulings (ie making sure players are on time). TSL 1&2: ref lags players tell him to leave Plus the fact that in big tournaments ie the one that Huk keeps citing from this morning having a ref in every game is not possible. In SC2 the ref can be put into a situation where the players pause the game and refuse to resume until you leave because of lag. Happened in IEM cologne again top players demanding that the stream leave the game when without the stream the prize pool doesn't exist. | ||
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TobZero
Germany493 Posts
cup was go4sc2. i was watching the stream linked here on TL -> gosucoaching stream after some games i realized that there were THREE observer in a game for this ONE stream. one guys streamed and 2 other comment it. that beeing not enough ... everyone who followed the last games should remember the MASSIVE lag which made e.g. DIMAGA fail an banelingbust out of bunker contain vs. Morrow. now to get to the really BM shit those "three" caster pulled off: im dead sure that all the lag was caused by that third - nontalking - caster who just streamed and set camara to follow on someone else. at one game on kulas ravine the camera follow stoped and you were looking at some random spot all the time. shortly after the "streamer" typed in chat about himself playing HON.. even if he did it on another comp.... i just can find words how fucked up such behavior is. 3 observer in a game, 2 casting 1 streaming and the streamer not even beein interested in the game and playing something else..... OH and not to forget: HE LAGGED LIKE FUCKING HELL.... i switched to another stream after that BM shit on about every game there was the notice that the one streamer laged or whatever..... sadly my english isnt good enough to express really how unbelivable insolent that was to me.. i think in near future there should only be replayes casted... i dont care about seeing the games 10minutes lader. in addition there should only be the players +1 tournament admin in the game - thats it. first and highes focus should be the players as many of the work to earn their living and even if they arent fulltime pro its their time and their work put into the game and no streamer nor viewer have the right to demand anything from the players than getting the reps casted. Zira | ||
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Therick
Norway324 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:26 Macavity wrote: Why do we need casters at all? Everyone watching knows what the Starcraft 2 units are. We don't need someone to explain what a destructible rock is or that a siege tank can cause trouble when placed on a cliff. We really don't need people doing fake enthusiasm during each attack or drop. Not a single caster has any experience in broadcasting. Broadcasting is something you need to be trained to do. This is how it is done in real sports. This is why SC2 broadcasters sound so bad. If we have pro players, we need pro casters. Casting is probably putting people away instead of drawing them in. Why do we need casters? We need them to cast the games LIVE, what do you suggest how people would do it? 2k+ people joining 1 game to obs it? lag fixd yo. secondly, what are you basing that fact off? Casters like Totalbiscuit have run his own successful radio show talking about WoW, for like, 5 years. Now im no fan of WoW, but i can say thats impressive and say that he aint got no experience is total bullshit. And SC2 broadcasters dont sound bad, i enjoy watching people like raelcun and gunrun/martijn, and lots of others. and what if people were only allowed to view to replays, no casters what so ever, what about people who dont own SC2? what wud you say to them? or total new people to the game who dont understand anything about the game, i myself can say i have learned alot from casters like totalbiscuit, he was the guy who got me into sc2 in the first place. When i first got my beta key, i wouldnt have known anything about the game if it werent for caster like him. | ||
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Escapist
Portugal548 Posts
I do understand the problem that uploading fake replays that wont be properly checked might be and the only thing i can come up with this instant is having 2/3 min breaks between matches so the player could send the replay and this could be checked and failng to send the proper replay would result in some penalty. | ||
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:26 Macavity wrote: Why do we need casters at all? Everyone watching knows what the Starcraft 2 units are. We don't need someone to explain what a destructible rock is or that a siege tank can cause trouble when placed on a cliff. We really don't need people doing fake enthusiasm during each attack or drop. People also know the rules of football but still there are commentators... I really wouldn't want to watch a stream without somebody casting, would be totally boring to me. | ||
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:02 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: TSL 1&2: ref lags players tell him to leave Plus the fact that in big tournaments ie the one that Huk keeps citing from this morning having a ref in every game is not possible. In SC2 the ref can be put into a situation where the players pause the game and refuse to resume until you leave because of lag. Happened in IEM cologne again top players demanding that the stream leave the game when without the stream the prize pool doesn't exist. I'm confused, this is 1 person to gather replays instead of 2 casters 1 admin 1 streamer, how is this a worse situation? | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19221 Posts
However, as a caster, camera, and sponsor, I'll always back out of a game if a player asks me to. | ||
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Serendipicus
United States90 Posts
Sponsors will have their rules, depending how flexable they are they may adjust how matches are handled. A few things to consider: Will fans/viewers be content with replay castings? -Understanding why. Will they allow streamers to cast their own matches? -Modified rules. Are the players better off because of it? -Positives/Negitives Can spoilers be limited because of this? -This will be tough. There is a certain attraction for "Live" broadcasts. I will admit, barring spoilers/bracket updates ahead of the cast, I will still tune in to live casts of replays after the match. Tough topic, needs to be discussed. Maybe with more feedback and TL Polls? I say Players need to play at 100%, Casters want the best for the fans/viewers, and the fans will always demand the best out of everything. So with this "love triangle" ~Big T quote, hopefully a solution for all will be found. | ||
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chaudepisse
9 Posts
On September 06 2010 18:19 Therickz wrote: So like, every tournie then? If they boycott tournies, what will that profit them? nothing, maybe abit drama in the start but it wud be shrugged off in like 1 week, and maybe we get to see new players shine, the boycotting players lose money by not playing, yeah, seems like a viable choice ._.' If you think tournament and casters wouldnt adapt to the player request when they got no other choice if they want popular players in their field, you are overestimating their motivation on live casting over casting replays. I m pretty sure day[9] hd and huskie would be more than happy to do as the player want and have some really popular tournament. If the only problem is to get replay from the players everytime they finish a game, that doesnt sound that hard to fix. Giving players some sanction if they dont give the replay at the end on the game to a tournament official seems to be an easy fix. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:28 heyoka wrote: I'm confused, this is 1 person to gather replays instead of 2 casters 1 admin 1 streamer, how is this a worse situation? I don't understand what you're asking, you asked why we cna't have one referee in each game to save the replay right? I answered that or so I thought, in a tournament the number of referees is a limiting factor. Plus players try to kick out referees in the past anyway in major events so then they don't get the save the replay anyway and it's still on the players to save the replay and send it in which is notoriously difficult. | ||
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sircuddles
Canada91 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:45 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:I don't understand what you're asking, you asked why we cna't have one referee in each game to save the replay right? I answered that or so I thought, in a tournament the number of referees is a limiting factor. Plus players try to kick out referees in the past anyway in major events so then they don't get the save the replay anyway and it's still on the players to save the replay and send it in which is notoriously difficult. If a referee is causing lag they shouldn't be a referee. Pretty simple solution, get a new one for the next game. I don't see why it's so hard to get casters to sign up prior to an event via email with the tournament organizers and be sent replays as they come out from a pool of 4-5 ref's that follow mostly big names and some others. And again as many have said if casting is soooo important then there needs to be a lot more effort put into the organization of it and making sure it all works for players, streamers and viewers. | ||
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chaudepisse
9 Posts
I ve been a judge for 100s of card tournament and making players follow the rules was never an issue. If players want some proffessionalism from casters and TO they have to show some aswell. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
Let's say Game 1 lasts for 10 minutes. The caster receives the replay and starts casting immediately. Ten minutes later they check their email but apparently Game 2 is still going on, so there is an indefinite pause until the game is over. Alternatively, you could send the replays after all games have finished but with a bo5 or bo7 this could mean waiting for a looooong time. SC2 is still a new game so most games tend to finish for about 10-15 minutes. However, (hopefully) this will change, so even 3 30 minute-long games plus bio breaks = 2 hours. These delays will add-up during the course of the tournament. Finals are often played very late in the evening - imagine pushing the whole tournament for at least two additional hours? Making a reasonable schedule would become an even bigger nightmare then it already is. The only way to cope with it would be to cast pretty much the whole tournament the next day. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
The players should definitely make a stand. Being forced to play in difficult situations is preposterous. Enough of the shitty noob casters and ridiculous rules. This is why most other sports have player associations, so the players can band together and do what's right for them. | ||
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razamanaz
271 Posts
Now imagine , would you watch a basketball , football (socker for US ppl) and any other sport if it wasnt live ? Some would , but A LOT less. I understand that lag and cheating is a problem , but stoping live casting isnt a solution. In every sport player is a product witch makes money , and if its not making money to a sponsor - he isnt needed anymore. But again , turnaments with big money usually are LAN , in witch case neither lag , neither live stream isnt a problem . As for small turnaments i guess players , casters and sponsors need to work on solution together , not just boycoting each other . | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
That said if these tournaments are finding you guys sponsors and giving you exposure, then when you join their tournament, you agree to their rules. If this is the way they see best fit to run their tournament in order to gain the right exposure for it then creating their own rules is entirely in their right. Players joining a tournament suddenly disregarding rules they agreed to by joining in the first place is not good either. The players are right in their complaints that this is not an ideal way to run a tournament. Their point would be supported by not joining them. Then things may change eventually. Initiatives such as this topic can help a lot. Disregarding rules after joining a tournament is not the right way. | ||
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