|
On September 06 2010 22:13 Frankon wrote:
faulty protective headphones +200 to cheating in live.
Btw .
Big lol @ Idra.
The problem Huk and Morrow have is mainly with weekly tournaments.
Havent seen you in any of them ;P
Keyword is faulty as they are not suposed to let you hear.
Good to know that you are so well informed on how Idra didnt had similiar problems in the past....
|
i know he had problem with BigT
|
I blame Livestream for being called Livestream, I mean when it has live in the name that's just what you expect and as a plebian I can't be tasked with thinking beyond that!
|
On September 06 2010 22:26 Frankon wrote:
i know he had problem with BigT
So your complaint is.... he doesn't compete in the small weekly tournaments that this effects as much so he can't have an opinion? I guess 90% of the posters in this thread should shutup then since only the players and casters can talk about these options.
Wait, given sc2's current climate probably 25% of the posters are casters.
|
It seems that StarCraft is the only gaming community that is insistent on casters going over finished, ended games (replays). I think this is mainly due to Korean eSports and casting over their live Korean broadcasts for VOD's, and general old-school attitude around here. The TSL #1 and 2 worked well because the organizers and head community members around here did a good job of making sure none of the information was leaked (and in the end some of it was).
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE. Competitive and sporting events only work when they are played live. When a match is over, it is over, and it is reported on that instant. The scores, highlights, pictures, videos, celebrations are all posted on the front page of any respectable media organization covering the event. There is no waiting and there never will be after the fact.
The real problem, in the example of the MorroW match, is the sheer number of broadcasters. 14 is ridiculous, and it's ESL's job to make sure only authorized people are in the games. This counts for both the lag and cheating aspects. If a broadcaster was found to be giving results to a player during a live match (which is pretty hard to do anyway), then there's a much larger issue at hand. I've personally never heard of this happening in any of the major eSports (SC, Quake, CS, Street Fighter, Wc3, CoD, etc).
|
I've got a question for the pros.
Let's say a solution is devised to delay live casting - with, say, 15 minutes - which would make watching/listening/having a friend inform you what's going on on the stream not worth it.
Let's also say that tournament organisers impose strict rules for casters, i.e. one caster per game; leaving immediately in case of lag; etc.
Would you be happy to be casted live in this case?
Because let's make one thing clear - casters' main reason to defend live casting is having a larger audience. It would be more convenient for them to just wait for the replays to be sent and then upload some VODs, so there's no reason not to trust them about the viewer count.
P.S.
On September 06 2010 22:31 Slasher wrote:
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE.
True. I have watched hundreds, maybe even thousands of football games (90+ min each) since I was a kid and I have never ever seen one that was not live. Just think about all of us who would stay up until late or get up before down to watch something live...
|
As a viewer I really prefer it being live.
I know it causes problems, but I would much rather have the focus be on minimizing those problems. Then going over to replay casts.
|
On September 06 2010 22:31 Slasher wrote:
It seems that StarCraft is the only gaming community that is insistent on casters going over finished, ended games (replays). I think this is mainly due to Korean eSports and casting over their live Korean broadcasts for VOD's, and general old-school attitude around here. The TSL #1 and 2 worked well because the organizers and head community members around here did a good job of making sure none of the information was leaked (and in the end some of it was).
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE. Competitive and sporting events only work when they are played live. When a match is over, it is over, and it is reported on that instant. The scores, highlights, pictures, videos, celebrations are all posted on the front page of any respectable media organization covering the event. There is no waiting and there never will be after the fact.
The real problem, in the example of the MorroW match, is the sheer number of broadcasters. 14 is ridiculous, and it's ESL's job to make sure only authorized people are in the games. This counts for both the lag and cheating aspects. If a broadcaster was found to be giving results to a player during a live match (which is pretty hard to do anyway), then there's a much larger issue at hand. I've personally never heard of this happening in any of the major eSports (SC, Quake, CS, Street Fighter, Wc3, CoD, etc).
If I told you that the UFC wasn't exactly live would you freak out?
You are comparing sporting events played LIVE in the protected environment ( btw football coaches cover their mouth when they speak so that no one can see what strategy they are discussing) to the online events where the outcome depends on the information that each player can gather. You have to be smarter that this, your analogy is weak. Compare football games to LAN games - sure, we all want live coverage there. Be serious.
|
The amount of people talking about replay vs live and act like people are suggesting casters collect replays and then a day later cast them is mind boggling. Being 1 set behind the tournament casting games is not some huge, ridiculous idea. People mention a delay of x number of minutes or something... well then it's not live? No?
The essence of "live" comes from commentators and viewers simply not knowing the outcome. This is easy to accommodate with replays if it is done properly. If there can't be a way for people to delay their streams then there simply has to be a change.
|
if we did do VODs of replays in tournaments its not a bad idea, but again, some issues:
positives:
-1080p quality is possible
-quality (sorry, i'm a gfx designer, and video editor, and quality is important to me)
-people from other countries don't have to see "crap too many viewers from my country"
negatives:
-1080p capturing and encoding takes FOREVER. seriously...a 30-45 minutes replay, or even a 10-15 minute replay can take 30-45 minutes to process, encode, add another 30-45 minutes for uploading
possible solution:
-have a player host the game, commentators DO NOT host, and just spec or ref
|
On September 06 2010 10:21 Frunkis wrote:
As a viewer I'd prefer they do replays instead of live games. Sitting around waiting for them to catch a game and bug players is really annoying. It seems like there would be a hell of a lot less downtime if they just did replays.
yeah this x1000, I can't watch any of the live online tournaments because at least 50% of the feed is the casters trying to set up the games, and often they end up missing high profile matchups because they start while casters are casting games of no names.
I really liked how HDH did their games, a big ol' stream of back to back games every week. It's not exactly hard to avoid spoilers and the benefits to players are huge.
|
On September 06 2010 22:41 News wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 22:31 Slasher wrote:
It seems that StarCraft is the only gaming community that is insistent on casters going over finished, ended games (replays). I think this is mainly due to Korean eSports and casting over their live Korean broadcasts for VOD's, and general old-school attitude around here. The TSL #1 and 2 worked well because the organizers and head community members around here did a good job of making sure none of the information was leaked (and in the end some of it was).
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE. Competitive and sporting events only work when they are played live. When a match is over, it is over, and it is reported on that instant. The scores, highlights, pictures, videos, celebrations are all posted on the front page of any respectable media organization covering the event. There is no waiting and there never will be after the fact.
The real problem, in the example of the MorroW match, is the sheer number of broadcasters. 14 is ridiculous, and it's ESL's job to make sure only authorized people are in the games. This counts for both the lag and cheating aspects. If a broadcaster was found to be giving results to a player during a live match (which is pretty hard to do anyway), then there's a much larger issue at hand. I've personally never heard of this happening in any of the major eSports (SC, Quake, CS, Street Fighter, Wc3, CoD, etc). If I told you that the UFC wasn't exactly live would you freak out? You are comparing sporting events played LIVE in the protected environment ( btw football coaches cover their mouth when they speak so that no one can see what strategy they are discussing) to the online events where the outcome depends on the information that each player can gather. You have to be smarter that this, your analogy is weak. Compare football games to LAN games - sure, we all want live coverage there. Be serious.
UFC is always LIVE unless the event is held internationally. That is why http://modules.ufc.com/live/ exists in the first place. Coaches covering their mouths so that opposing players and teams cannot see what they're doing, either by themselves or from the TV feed, has nothing to do with the event being played live or not. That's gamesmanship. And I don't mean Patriots-Spygate style. All major LAN eSports events - including the Korean StarCraft leagues - are played live as they should be. Online events are inherently different, but we have the technology (and internet connection) nowadays to make it a near non-existent problem. My analogy is perfectly sound.
|
On September 06 2010 22:51 Slasher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 22:41 News wrote:On September 06 2010 22:31 Slasher wrote:
It seems that StarCraft is the only gaming community that is insistent on casters going over finished, ended games (replays). I think this is mainly due to Korean eSports and casting over their live Korean broadcasts for VOD's, and general old-school attitude around here. The TSL #1 and 2 worked well because the organizers and head community members around here did a good job of making sure none of the information was leaked (and in the end some of it was).
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE. Competitive and sporting events only work when they are played live. When a match is over, it is over, and it is reported on that instant. The scores, highlights, pictures, videos, celebrations are all posted on the front page of any respectable media organization covering the event. There is no waiting and there never will be after the fact.
The real problem, in the example of the MorroW match, is the sheer number of broadcasters. 14 is ridiculous, and it's ESL's job to make sure only authorized people are in the games. This counts for both the lag and cheating aspects. If a broadcaster was found to be giving results to a player during a live match (which is pretty hard to do anyway), then there's a much larger issue at hand. I've personally never heard of this happening in any of the major eSports (SC, Quake, CS, Street Fighter, Wc3, CoD, etc). If I told you that the UFC wasn't exactly live would you freak out? You are comparing sporting events played LIVE in the protected environment ( btw football coaches cover their mouth when they speak so that no one can see what strategy they are discussing) to the online events where the outcome depends on the information that each player can gather. You have to be smarter that this, your analogy is weak. Compare football games to LAN games - sure, we all want live coverage there. Be serious. UFC is always LIVE unless the event is held internationally. That is why http://modules.ufc.com/live/ exists in the first place. Coaches covering their mouths so that opposing players and teams cannot see what they're doing, either by themselves or from the TV feed, has nothing to do with the event being played live or not. That's gamesmanship. And I don't mean Patriots-Spygate style. All major LAN eSports events - including the Korean StarCraft leagues - are played live as they should be. Online events are inherently different, but we have the technology (and internet connection) nowadays to make it a near non-existent problem. My analogy is perfectly sound.
Korean events are played in a LAN environment, players sit in isolated cabins, comparison with football has everything to do with it since you don't want your information to get out. How do you not get the analogy? Whole debate is about the online events being different than LAN events, wtf how are you going to make it "nonexistent problem" unless you stand behind my back while I'm playing and watching the cast on the 2nd computer?
I know for a fact something about the last UFC that you don't know since I'm friends with one of the participants.
|
On September 06 2010 22:51 Slasher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 22:41 News wrote:On September 06 2010 22:31 Slasher wrote:
It seems that StarCraft is the only gaming community that is insistent on casters going over finished, ended games (replays). I think this is mainly due to Korean eSports and casting over their live Korean broadcasts for VOD's, and general old-school attitude around here. The TSL #1 and 2 worked well because the organizers and head community members around here did a good job of making sure none of the information was leaked (and in the end some of it was).
As a member of the media, and someone who has watched all major sports since i was 5, and followed eSports for the past decade, it HAS TO BE LIVE. Competitive and sporting events only work when they are played live. When a match is over, it is over, and it is reported on that instant. The scores, highlights, pictures, videos, celebrations are all posted on the front page of any respectable media organization covering the event. There is no waiting and there never will be after the fact.
The real problem, in the example of the MorroW match, is the sheer number of broadcasters. 14 is ridiculous, and it's ESL's job to make sure only authorized people are in the games. This counts for both the lag and cheating aspects. If a broadcaster was found to be giving results to a player during a live match (which is pretty hard to do anyway), then there's a much larger issue at hand. I've personally never heard of this happening in any of the major eSports (SC, Quake, CS, Street Fighter, Wc3, CoD, etc). If I told you that the UFC wasn't exactly live would you freak out? You are comparing sporting events played LIVE in the protected environment ( btw football coaches cover their mouth when they speak so that no one can see what strategy they are discussing) to the online events where the outcome depends on the information that each player can gather. You have to be smarter that this, your analogy is weak. Compare football games to LAN games - sure, we all want live coverage there. Be serious. UFC is always LIVE unless the event is held internationally. That is why http://modules.ufc.com/live/ exists in the first place. Coaches covering their mouths so that opposing players and teams cannot see what they're doing, either by themselves or from the TV feed, has nothing to do with the event being played live or not. That's gamesmanship. And I don't mean Patriots-Spygate style. All major LAN eSports events - including the Korean StarCraft leagues - are played live as they should be. Online events are inherently different, but we have the technology (and internet connection) nowadays to make it a near non-existent problem. My analogy is perfectly sound.
I'd say your analogy falls apart when you examine the other problems inherent, specifically cheating. This is an RTS where information is at a premium. Sports? Not so much, beyond finding out perhaps a star player will be out of the game.
|
On September 06 2010 22:50 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 10:21 Frunkis wrote:
As a viewer I'd prefer they do replays instead of live games. Sitting around waiting for them to catch a game and bug players is really annoying. It seems like there would be a hell of a lot less downtime if they just did replays. yeah this x1000, I can't watch any of the live online tournaments because at least 50% of the feed is the casters trying to set up the games, and often they end up missing high profile matchups because they start while casters are casting games of no names. I really liked how HDH did their games, a big ol' stream of back to back games every week. It's not exactly hard to avoid spoilers and the benefits to players are huge.
I remember there being an accidental leak during TSL, and weren't the HDH finals played live? It is my -duty- as an independent journalist to report on and cover a tournament in full, including immediately when a match has ended. I am not waiting for the matches to broadcasted days later when it has already concluded.
|
On September 06 2010 22:57 Slasher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 22:50 Wargizmo wrote:On September 06 2010 10:21 Frunkis wrote:
As a viewer I'd prefer they do replays instead of live games. Sitting around waiting for them to catch a game and bug players is really annoying. It seems like there would be a hell of a lot less downtime if they just did replays. yeah this x1000, I can't watch any of the live online tournaments because at least 50% of the feed is the casters trying to set up the games, and often they end up missing high profile matchups because they start while casters are casting games of no names. I really liked how HDH did their games, a big ol' stream of back to back games every week. It's not exactly hard to avoid spoilers and the benefits to players are huge. I remember there being an accidental leak during TSL, and weren't the HDH finals played live? It is my -duty- as an independent journalist to report on and cover a tournament in full, including immediately when a match has ended. I am not waiting for the matches to broadcasted days later when it has already concluded.
Stop being silly, everyone talks about 10-15 minute delay, casting games right after they finished. You are not being reasonable right now.
|
Noone is talking about vod there. Players want delayed livestream, and the easiest way atm is to livestream a replay instead of the actual match, if people could stream a game with a decent delay like 15+ min noone would complain.
|
On September 06 2010 22:57 Slasher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 22:50 Wargizmo wrote:On September 06 2010 10:21 Frunkis wrote:
As a viewer I'd prefer they do replays instead of live games. Sitting around waiting for them to catch a game and bug players is really annoying. It seems like there would be a hell of a lot less downtime if they just did replays. yeah this x1000, I can't watch any of the live online tournaments because at least 50% of the feed is the casters trying to set up the games, and often they end up missing high profile matchups because they start while casters are casting games of no names. I really liked how HDH did their games, a big ol' stream of back to back games every week. It's not exactly hard to avoid spoilers and the benefits to players are huge. I remember there being an accidental leak during TSL, and weren't the HDH finals played live? It is my -duty- as an independent journalist to report on and cover a tournament in full, including immediately when a match has ended. I am not waiting for the matches to broadcasted days later when it has already concluded.
Hahahahah. So, you're saying that if games were cast on, say 1 hour behind the tournament schedule in order to facilitate replays and slightly less spotty downtime, that you'd dig through their match results and spoil them for everybody?
|
This problem screams for a technical solution. Someone needs to write an app to address these issues. My suggestion is a website that would be used to host replays automatically from invited tournament participants. Each participant would be given a unique code just for them for that tournament. Each player would also have a plug-in, applet, etc. that would automatically upload the replay file from their PC to the website. In this way the replay would be available just seconds after the conclusion of the match. The replays would be available initially to the invited casters and available publicly 24 hours (or however long) after the match. In this way, dozens of casters could have access right after the match. The only compromise is that the viewers are delayed until after the first match completes. In big tournaments I would think this would only be a problem at the very onset, but while long matches would be delayed, other matches that end quickly would be available 10-15 minutes after the start of the tournament. The web design could be such that it displays the bracket and replays available as they post.
I think this kind of solution would work well for online tournaments, allowing the players the security of knowing that their play is not being compromised and I’m sure that this will become an even bigger deal as the prize pools increase.
So some enterprising web designer/coder...get to work!! You might even be able to make a couple of bucks from it!
|
Am i the only one who doesnt understand how games will be spoiled if they are casted by replay?
I mean yea if you check different forums and sites every 5mins then there's a chance that it might happen, but who does that? And why do that?
f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f Oh God NO!! they spoiled it for me 
Could someone explain? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
