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On September 07 2010 06:59 BladeRunner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 06:50 ReDDoG-TrEe wrote:
Whats the big difference of casting a game a few minutes after it is over and casting it right away? nothing with the exception of feeling important because you are in that game while they are playing. Bo3+ could easily be streamed just like it was live if players just had to send in the replay right after the game. We are talking about starcraft here and not football, it's not like in football the coaches are watching the live stream of the game and saying hey LOOK AT HIS PLAY BOOK!.
Lag is obvious, I don't know how some of you players can stand having 10+ obs in a match, even slight delays affect gameplay. Someone lags out? ok lag might settle down then, but you still had that 1 extra minute to think about whats going on in the game, or that 1 minute that throws you completly off your game.
Cheating is huge, and this is the one thing I don't like the most about live streams/obs. People have been cheating in sc since 98 to become well known/pro. It is sad that the integrity of players are low, but its just fact. I wouldn't call anyone out without 100% evidence and this is where the livestream/obs cheating is so benefical. Who can really know if your buddy(or streamer) is telling you important details. I've played a tourney game against someone i won't name, he had a buddy who wanted to obs and i figured he was a respectable person. After watching the replay it was pretty clear his buddy was talking to him, but wheres the proof? so I had to just let it slide and ignore it, but I won't be allowing random obs in any games if I decide to play sc2 at a higher level. I would think the sponsers of these tourney's would not want live stream either inless a 5 minute delay could be put on that stream. Smaller tourney's the prize pool might not seem big enough to be really picky about streaming, but these smaller tourney's give players a name where then they can have a shot at the big bucks and just quit cheating then.
You can't really say well if hes cheating he won't be able to compete with the pros because there are many pros who cheated got good then went to korea. I find allowing this to happen in a more fashionable way is just bad for e-sports in general.
I'm still unclear what you and other posters are proposing this would play out like if they want to cast a replay as soon as the game finishes... "tourney cast starts" filler for X minutes while game 1 finishes game 1 casting for x minutes, game 2 starts but takes x+5 minutes to finish game 1 cast finishes 5 minutes filler (keep in mind this 5 minutes is variable from 0 to 30min+ so hard to plan what to put in there) game 2 cast starts, entire audience knows that the game takes x+5 minutes to finish (spoiler much?) See the problem here? If you want to cast with replays it's going to have to be after the entire series is over, or complete random ordering - that is, game 1 of X v Y then game 1 of Z v M then game 2 of X v Y etc (which sounds dumb to me), or it's going to be after the entire series, which isn't entirely bad but it could pose major delay issues for tournaments already strapped for time.
They fill fairly easily at big tournaments, the good casters, become good at it, just like good radio announcers or tv announcers, bad casters need action to talk about because they have nothing interesting to talk about.
Second you're assuming that people sit there with a stopwatch and time how long the game lasts and then add in the filler and then compute them and figure out how long the second game lasted, and then count down that time to know when the end is coming, but that doesn't spoil shit. You can always pretty much tell when a game is coming to a head when you are watching it, so I don't know why knowing the exact time of the game would ruin anything besides your mind trying to keep track of all those timings.
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On September 07 2010 06:44 debasers wrote:
put a delay at the streams, i think it could fix everything
On September 06 2010 18:06 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 17:38 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
I ignored the cheating part because my stream is consistantly a good several minutes behind anyway. I've had people try to cheat off my stream in ladder games only to realize oh fuck it's behind and I'm not getting any useful information. I had one guy even tell me this straight up, cheating is easily solved by delaying the stream. games can be changed by an expo remaining hidden for the entire game, well over 5 minutes after its built. thats not a valid argument. its less dangerous than a normal live stream, its still bad.
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I am not saying that method would be best at all, what I am saying is that livestreaming brings problems. If you could delay streams 5 minutes that would be good enough, but for some reason these sites don't offer that.
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8751 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:46 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 06:25 drewbie.root wrote:On September 07 2010 06:21 Ancient.eu wrote:On September 07 2010 06:10 Tropics wrote:On September 07 2010 06:06 Ancient.eu wrote:On September 07 2010 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:On September 07 2010 05:51 Ancient.eu wrote:
I strongly prefer live games. They have a unique feeling, an empathy connection between the games and the audience. As a spectator, you live the events of the games as they happen in real time and this feeling is the beauty of a live transmission.
If people just started streaming replays, I would stop watching most of the events that I am watching now. I would probably just limit my time to the big events only. Did you watch HDH Invitational? The Day9 tournament? KOTB? Those were among the most successful tournaments to date. You chose not to watch them because they were replays? Like I have mentioned, I would probably limit my time to the big events only. I have followed the HDH and the KotB tournaments but they were the 2 biggest beta tournaments. But I would not watch daily streams and weekly tournaments with replays being casted. I just don't enjoy them and would just spend my time doing something else. even though you see the exact same game being played? i doubt you'd even notice. the appeal of watching something live doesnt come from omg this is happening right now, it comes from everyone is watching this along with me and we are seeing the game unfold at the same time, which is why replay events are successful. The appeal of a live stream is that the events that you seeing are happening in real time, not from realizing that many other people are watching the same thing. If there was a very good game on a stream, would you enjoy it more if there were 1500 people watching than you would enjoy it if there were 1000 watching ? You would probably enjoy it the same, as you would enjoy the events and not the knowledge that more people are seeing the same thing. I am not sure how you form your opinions, but just look around the events around you. How many live entertainment events are in the world as opposed to recorded ones. The biggest and most important events in the world, the ones that attract the most viewers, are live, and this is not accidental. The appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. And these tournaments exist for the entertainment of the viewers and this is what should be given priority when taking a decision regarding the coverage. Is there actually a difference between watching the game live and watching a replay of a game played 10 minutes ago that NOBODY knows the results of? I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T I agree with Ancient.eu. It's a huge difference in watching a live game compared to a recorded game (even if it's 10minutes delayed). You know the game is over. You can't cheer or hope for a player do do something because it already happened! Simply no hype/excitement at all in watching recorded games ... No offense, but you probably don't understand this, since you're a player and you're more interested in analyzing the game, strategies etc. rather than cheering for a player. It's a job for you but it's entertainment for the majority. Also the results can be spoiled so easily with the match history stats on bnet. I'm glad Blizzard did it this way. If we want eSports to grow then people must understand this: spectators are the priority over players! This means live games > recorded games. As for the players cheating by watching the stream ... those who get in the final rounds of a tournament and get their matches streamed, will not risk their sc2 career for anything less than 5000$ so stop being paranoid please. Pro players really need to understand that spectators are more important than them, if we want SC2 and tournament prizes to grow.
The facts are absolutely against you as big events have already successfully generated tons of hype and excitement when casting replays of games that were played days earlier. TSL, HDH, KotB.
There are some sacrifices that players need to make in order to put on a better show. They have to do interviews and they have to adhere to schedules and they have to agree to some ridiculous rules and play maps they don't want to play. There's a ton of shit that players are already doing. But not everything should be sacrificed for the good of the show. And hopefully spectators have enough respect for the integrity of the competition that they wouldn't even want players to sacrifice a stable playing experience or anti-cheating measures since a competition that sacrifices those things is not a great competition to watch. The players entertain primarily by playing the game better than anyone else. Tournament admins should do nothing to compromise that. Spectators should be outraged when a tournament isn't doing everything it can (within reason) to get the best performances out of its players.
And lolol drewbie can't understand about the excitement of watching something live but you know the exact dollar amount that a player would risk cheating. Yeahhhh you offer some great perspective!
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What the hell is this argument about "livestream feeling", this is absolutely nothing compared to lag / cheating. You're trying to tell me, you'd prefer a cheated live game than a fair replay? Every caster should switch completely to replays, it has tons and tons of advantages and if everyone is comfortable with this system, than it won't be that much of a hassle with the replays anymore (or just give them penalty point if they mess it up).
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even a 10 minute old game is not as cool as watching a live game, it's the atmosphere, even for nerds on their computers
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Its just something some people have so ingrained in their head, that they must watch it live or they can't watch it all. Just like everything in life though they'll get use to it, that is watching streamed replays.
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Okay, I'm still hoping for a pro to answer whether they'll be happy if:
A.) We develop a tool which allows a cast to be delayed by an x amount of minutes.
B.) Allow only a proven caster and co-caster to observe the game live. Just like you won't get unknown players invite to a pro tournament, it's only natural that big tournaments rely on pro casters.
These conditions would lead to
A.) Pretty much making sure that people can't use the stream to cheat.
B.) Pretty much making sure that there will be no lag (no one is immune to that 100%).
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On September 07 2010 05:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Person 1: "Hey just use replays"
Person 2: "Dude there is a problem with spoilers and players not sending in replays, plus you will get less viewers with replays than live"
Person 1: "Oh just add a delay"
Person 2: "That's alot of $ and really not feasible."
Person 1: "Oh, well than idk"
Person 3: "Just use replays..."
Until something new comes up in this thread I am withdrawing. There is issues on both sides and there is no right answer. Blizzard could make a fix for this but will not because it's blizzard and having 2 sweet ass computers just to run a stream is also not feasible.
This thread has passed the spam horizon - the people who read the thread are still stuck reading the posts so the only people posting are ones that haven't read it.
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On September 07 2010 07:13 Sernen wrote:
Its just something some people have so ingrained in their head, that they must watch it live or they can't watch it all. Just like everything in life though they'll get use to it, that is watching streamed replays.
In England if you asked someone this question:
"Would you rather watch Manchester United v Chelsea live or would you watch the highlights on Match of the Day tomorrow?" I'm pretty sure a clear majority would watch the match live. It's part of the glamour: if it's happening live you're part of it.
I'm a Manchester United supporter (ish, I support Cardiff now that I live in Cardiff) but I watched the 1999 Champion's League final between Manchester United and Bayern Munich where Manchester United score two goals in the dying minutes of the game. I can say, forever, that I was part of the amazing moment. It's similar to when a new television series airs: you watch the first viewing, you don't watch a repeat, which is also similar to watching a movie. I will put my hand up and say I am going to be seeing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Part 1) on the 19th November. It's a special feeling.
Again, it comes down to "LIVE IS LIVE AT THAT TIME." I want to stab people who think Glastonbury festival, Reading and Leads festival, Radio 1's Ibiza festival, Radio 1's Big Weekend etc etc are "easily replaceable with BBC television." Being among a crowd of tens of thousands is momentous, it's awesome.
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On September 07 2010 07:09 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 06:46 cyclone25 wrote:On September 07 2010 06:25 drewbie.root wrote:On September 07 2010 06:21 Ancient.eu wrote:On September 07 2010 06:10 Tropics wrote:On September 07 2010 06:06 Ancient.eu wrote:On September 07 2010 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:On September 07 2010 05:51 Ancient.eu wrote:
I strongly prefer live games. They have a unique feeling, an empathy connection between the games and the audience. As a spectator, you live the events of the games as they happen in real time and this feeling is the beauty of a live transmission.
If people just started streaming replays, I would stop watching most of the events that I am watching now. I would probably just limit my time to the big events only. Did you watch HDH Invitational? The Day9 tournament? KOTB? Those were among the most successful tournaments to date. You chose not to watch them because they were replays? Like I have mentioned, I would probably limit my time to the big events only. I have followed the HDH and the KotB tournaments but they were the 2 biggest beta tournaments. But I would not watch daily streams and weekly tournaments with replays being casted. I just don't enjoy them and would just spend my time doing something else. even though you see the exact same game being played? i doubt you'd even notice. the appeal of watching something live doesnt come from omg this is happening right now, it comes from everyone is watching this along with me and we are seeing the game unfold at the same time, which is why replay events are successful. The appeal of a live stream is that the events that you seeing are happening in real time, not from realizing that many other people are watching the same thing. If there was a very good game on a stream, would you enjoy it more if there were 1500 people watching than you would enjoy it if there were 1000 watching ? You would probably enjoy it the same, as you would enjoy the events and not the knowledge that more people are seeing the same thing. I am not sure how you form your opinions, but just look around the events around you. How many live entertainment events are in the world as opposed to recorded ones. The biggest and most important events in the world, the ones that attract the most viewers, are live, and this is not accidental. The appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. And these tournaments exist for the entertainment of the viewers and this is what should be given priority when taking a decision regarding the coverage. Is there actually a difference between watching the game live and watching a replay of a game played 10 minutes ago that NOBODY knows the results of? I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T I agree with Ancient.eu. It's a huge difference in watching a live game compared to a recorded game (even if it's 10minutes delayed). You know the game is over. You can't cheer or hope for a player do do something because it already happened! Simply no hype/excitement at all in watching recorded games ... No offense, but you probably don't understand this, since you're a player and you're more interested in analyzing the game, strategies etc. rather than cheering for a player. It's a job for you but it's entertainment for the majority. Also the results can be spoiled so easily with the match history stats on bnet. I'm glad Blizzard did it this way. If we want eSports to grow then people must understand this: spectators are the priority over players! This means live games > recorded games. As for the players cheating by watching the stream ... those who get in the final rounds of a tournament and get their matches streamed, will not risk their sc2 career for anything less than 5000$ so stop being paranoid please. Pro players really need to understand that spectators are more important than them, if we want SC2 and tournament prizes to grow. The facts are absolutely against you as big events have already successfully generated tons of hype and excitement when casting replays of games that were played days earlier. TSL, HDH, KotB. There are some sacrifices that players need to make in order to put on a better show. They have to do interviews and they have to adhere to schedules and they have to agree to some ridiculous rules and play maps they don't want to play. There's a ton of shit that players are already doing. But not everything should be sacrificed for the good of the show. And hopefully spectators have enough respect for the integrity of the competition that they wouldn't even want players to sacrifice a stable playing experience or anti-cheating measures since a competition that sacrifices those things is not a great competition to watch. The players entertain primarily by playing the game better than anyone else. Tournament admins should do nothing to compromise that. Spectators should be outraged when a tournament isn't doing everything it can (within reason) to get the best performances out of its players. And lolol drewbie can't understand about the excitement of watching something live but you know the exact dollar amount that a player would risk cheating. Yeahhhh you offer some great perspective!
QFT. Thank you Tyler for putting it better than my words would allow. It's about the precision and expertise of the players, they are what make you watch, not that it's live, who would watch bronze players live over the best of the best recorded.
Do what you can to make the players happy, keep the casters happy (in that no ONE gets an exclusive) and if that is all well and good, people will watch, for the OPPORTUNITY to watch some of the best of the best at what they do. If you can't handle that it's not live, don't watch, I promise you that there are more than enough people out there that can understand HuK and others, including IdRAGE's opinions.
I'll take well casted, completely legit, replays over poorly casted by 15 people, some questionable live streams.
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To be honest it's stupid we even have to have this discussion. This is supposed to be the best competitive game ever, yet Blizzard have done nothing to help with content delivery of pro games.
A HLTV equivalent with a 10 minute delay and adding no additional strain to the players connection is completely possible, and I can't imagine adding a live, good quality VOIP service in game on top of that to be too difficult.
A short term solution is needed, but long term this shit needs fixing and that's on Blizzard.
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On September 07 2010 06:53 Killerbot wrote:
Yes, they are for entertainment, and yes the mechanics are the responsibility of the organizer, however you are dealing with completely separate and far different events. One is easily casted live with no problem, but actually now most 'live' events have between a 5 and 10 second delay to allow possible bleeping or blurring of anything offensive.
A delay with the stream would be acceptable, but there is a very big difference between casting with a delay and casting a replay.
On September 07 2010 06:53 Killerbot wrote:
And I'm sorry but I feel a minority of people would be that upset so as to never watch SC2 again if it went to a 15-20 minute delay between playing and casting. Most people would be unaware of the time difference unless told about it or have the ending ruined for them.
I have never said that people would be upset as to never watch Starcraft 2 again. Don't exaggerate your impressions, just take them as they are. What I have said is that people would enjoy recorded events less and that the number of viewers would drop, especially for the small and medium events.
On September 07 2010 06:53 Killerbot wrote:
And you say that entertainment is better live, but every single show you watch, outside of a select few are completely taped, recorded, and later re-run. You're telling me you never watch re-runs of shows, since it wasn't live? Or you never look up the highlights or scores of sports games you miss simply because you couldn't see it live, to use your still weak analogy? If that were true Sportscenter would fail, no one would watch any TV re-runs, Hulu wouldn't exist. Oh and day9 wouldn't have 6k+ viewers a night.
I did not said that entertainment is better live. Please don't presume things that I have not said. There are different types of entertainment, each having different types of audience appeal. A movie, for example, has more audience appeal as a recorded form of entertainment. A sporting event, on the other hand, has more appeal as a live event rather than as a recording.
I have never said that I do not watch re-runs of shows, I have never said that I do not look up highlights or score, where are you getting all of these from ?
You should limit your impressions to what I have actually said, not include your own ideas and say that they are mine.
On September 07 2010 06:53 Killerbot wrote:
This is a JOB for most players, they get paid handsomely, and even more if they win. To use another sports analogy to continue your analogy, if you went to a golf tournament and heckled a golfer, you would be beaten and dragged out of the tournament. If you ran onto the course or dropped balls to help a player, you would be beaten and dragged out of the tournament. But if you cause lag, which upsets a player just as much as heckling at golf, or you know your 'friend' is listening to your cast while he is playing in a game YOU are casting, and asked to cast, it's okay.
First of all, your oder of ideas in that paragraph is hard to follow. You could use some ordering into your form of expression.
I will give you an example. In tennis, it is prohibited for a player to have contact with his trainer. But, his trainer is allowed to sit in the audience and therefore they can develop a secret form of communicating, thus cheating.
What would be your solution for this ? Don't allow people to watch tennis games on stadiums because there is the possibility for a player to cheat ? Play games with empty stadiums and later stream the games ?
Do they do that ? No, they do not. They let trainers in the audience because the entertainment of the viewers is more important that the possible cheating.
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On September 07 2010 07:16 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 07:13 Sernen wrote:
Its just something some people have so ingrained in their head, that they must watch it live or they can't watch it all. Just like everything in life though they'll get use to it, that is watching streamed replays. In England if you asked someone this question: "Would you rather watch Manchester United v Chelsea live or would you watch the highlights on Match of the Day tomorrow?" I'm pretty sure a clear majority would watch the match live. It's part of the glamour: if it's happening live you're part of it. I'm a Manchester United supporter (ish, I support Cardiff now that I live in Cardiff) but I watched the 1999 Champion's League final between Manchester United and Bayern Munich where Manchester United score two goals in the dying minutes of the game. I can say, forever, that I was part of the amazing moment. It's similar to when a new television series airs: you watch the first viewing, you don't watch a repeat, which is also similar to watching a movie. I will put my hand up and say I am going to be seeing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Part 1) on the 19th November. It's a special feeling.
Okay you're watching the game and just as they go to score the second goal in the 90th minute to win the game, a fan jumps onto the field grabs the ball and runs away. Guess what? That ONE person just ruined the entire live experience. (LAG)
Or better, you saw the game but found out 2 days later that Man U cheated in order to win that game in the final minutes, they could see exactly what all the Bayern players were going to do, before they did it, would you still think it was such an awesome victory to see live knowing that it was completely hollow and false victory. (CHEATING)
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On September 07 2010 07:20 Killerbot wrote:
Or better, you saw the game but found out 2 days later that Man U cheated in order to win that game in the final minutes, they could see exactly what all the Bayern players were going to do, before they did it, would you still think it was such an awesome victory to see live knowing that it was completely hollow and false victory. (CHEATING)
To be fair Manchester United were incredibly lucky in their win, didn't change the fact that Britain once again proved it's superiority over something German. :3
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huk for president
start cast replays of top8 in tours and allowing casters outside of top8 in brackets players should be able to decline casters
i bet theres been tons of underground newbs cheating with streams already, hell even top gamers cheat just look at sc1 with tsl.....
HDH and king of the beta most successful so far and they casted replays, organizers of these tours are brilliant, everyone should do this
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Watching great players LIVE is definitely a greater sensation, you are part of a crowd, you are there perhaps seeing history being made. Being part of a crowd where there are people cheering on whomever they are a fan of, reacting to whats going on in the game is just something totally different than you sitting alone.
So what do we need? Some delay on the stream with a minute or 2. We need Blizzard to fix the lag problems. Its not hard, its just a lot of work, (I would guess 2 programers 3 weeks + 3 more weeks and fixes with additional people testing and looking for bugs). The spectators should not be affecting the lag between the 2 players at all. It is just silly. Blizzard needs to step up and make this a sport that can be as spectacular as it should be.
Its up to you and me to write to blizzard and explain what we need and im sure they will give it to us once they realize there is demands.
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The integrity of matches have to be addressed here. 1 cheating player ruins a whole tournament in my opinion.
The huge venues have players show up at a center location and play in proboxes for more than a few reasons and it solves so many issues, plus satisfying everyone at the same time.
There are solutions for what Huk has addressed. Question is, will Blizzard see/read/contribute to this thread?
I have posted my thoughts for solutions earlier. Again please stay on topic and drop the personal attacks.
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On September 07 2010 07:20 Killerbot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 07:16 Cranberries wrote:On September 07 2010 07:13 Sernen wrote:
Its just something some people have so ingrained in their head, that they must watch it live or they can't watch it all. Just like everything in life though they'll get use to it, that is watching streamed replays. In England if you asked someone this question: "Would you rather watch Manchester United v Chelsea live or would you watch the highlights on Match of the Day tomorrow?" I'm pretty sure a clear majority would watch the match live. It's part of the glamour: if it's happening live you're part of it. I'm a Manchester United supporter (ish, I support Cardiff now that I live in Cardiff) but I watched the 1999 Champion's League final between Manchester United and Bayern Munich where Manchester United score two goals in the dying minutes of the game. I can say, forever, that I was part of the amazing moment. It's similar to when a new television series airs: you watch the first viewing, you don't watch a repeat, which is also similar to watching a movie. I will put my hand up and say I am going to be seeing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Part 1) on the 19th November. It's a special feeling. Okay you're watching the game and just as they go to score the second goal in the 90th minute to win the game, a fan jumps onto the field grabs the ball and runs away. Guess what? That ONE person just ruined the entire live experience. (LAG) Or better, you saw the game but found out 2 days later that Man U cheated in order to win that game in the final minutes, they could see exactly what all the Bayern players were going to do, before they did it, would you still think it was such an awesome victory to see live knowing that it was completely hollow and false victory. (CHEATING)
This is ridiculous haha. So you suggest spectators should be forbidden on a live match?
Also lol at players cheating by knowing what their opponents will do. Did you ever saw a football game? You know how this game is played?
Sorry but your logic is terrible.
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On September 07 2010 07:16 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 07:13 Sernen wrote:
Its just something some people have so ingrained in their head, that they must watch it live or they can't watch it all. Just like everything in life though they'll get use to it, that is watching streamed replays. In England if you asked someone this question: "Would you rather watch Manchester United v Chelsea live or would you watch the highlights on Match of the Day tomorrow?" I'm pretty sure a clear majority would watch the match live. It's part of the glamour: if it's happening live you're part of it.
You can't ignore the other issues involved though. If it was simply between live and delayed of course everyone would want to watch it live. But the moment you add the very real chances of cheating and lag problems, it doesn't become quite as simple.
And although it's a extremely small sample, the poll on page 25 sides with replays over live due to the above issues.
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EPT
