EPTAnything else falls in comparison. Either cast the replays and dont release the replays for the public or find a way to do a 5min delay in livecast.
Players vs Casters - Page 27
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
Anything else falls in comparison. Either cast the replays and dont release the replays for the public or find a way to do a 5min delay in livecast. | ||
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kimchi4prez
United States13 Posts
Did you guys not read about the huge match making scandal in Korea? Cheating? Pros? CHEATIN'!? MY PROS? Live games or replays, what is the difference? It's not like Day9 spoke any differently when he's watching a live event or it's a replay. You don't need to. Whatever FALSE feelings some of you guys feel about "live events" while you're sitting at your computer chair can be fabricated by just using replays. Go to real events and you'll actually be watching "live". The beauty of this game is that we CAN use replays. Just man up, comparing "live" airing and "live" events is just ridiculous. Sitting in your computer chair naked and watching the cast versus being at a tournament sullies what an actual live event is. I think a great solution would be if there was ONE OFFICIAL site for all online tournament replays that is sponsored by xxx. The players would receive unique id's confirming who they are etc and they could quickly and easily upload replays. The casters also receive unique id's and are given the passwords to download these replays. Later on, the passwords could be lifted and anyone could access the replays :D! I know, you people are unforgivably impatient and it'll be like 15-30 minutes before you see the match but cry moar. The cons (Cheating and Lag) are a much bigger issue than "omg my feelings?!" from some people. The player comes first. Cry as much as you want but when players stop playing because of lag or cheating, we will not be watching any "live" tournies or replays. | ||
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:10 Tropics wrote: even though you see the exact same game being played? i doubt you'd even notice. the appeal of watching something live doesnt come from omg this is happening right now, it comes from everyone is watching this along with me and we are seeing the game unfold at the same time, which is why replay events are successful. The appeal of a live stream is that the events that you seeing are happening in real time, not from realizing that many other people are watching the same thing. If there was a very good game on a stream, would you enjoy it more if there were 1500 people watching than you would enjoy it if there were 1000 watching ? You would probably enjoy it the same, as you would enjoy the events and not the knowledge that more people are seeing the same thing. I am not sure how you form your opinions, but just look around the events around you. How many live entertainment events are in the world as opposed to recorded ones. The biggest and most important events in the world, the ones that attract the most viewers, are live, and this is not accidental. The appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. And these tournaments exist for the entertainment of the viewers and this is what should be given priority when taking a decision regarding the coverage. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:21 Ancient.eu wrote: The appeal of a live stream is that the events that you seeing are happening in real time, not from realizing that many other people are watching the same thing. If there was a very good game on a stream, would you enjoy it more if there were 1500 people watching than you would enjoy it if there were 1000 watching ? You would probably enjoy it the same, as you would enjoy the events and not the knowledge that more people are seeing the same thing. I am not sure how you form your opinions, but just look around the events around you. How many live entertainment events are in the world as opposed to recorded ones. The biggest and most important events in the world, the ones that attract the most viewers, are live, and this is not accidental. The appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. And these tournaments exist for the entertainment of the viewers and this is what should be given priority when taking a decision regarding the coverage. Is there actually a difference between watching the game live and watching a replay of a game played 10 minutes ago that NOBODY knows the results of? I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T | ||
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Killerbot
United States106 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:21 Ancient.eu wrote: The appeal of a live stream is that the events that you seeing are happening in real time, not from realizing that many other people are watching the same thing. If there was a very good game on a stream, would you enjoy it more if there were 1500 people watching than you would enjoy it if there were 1000 watching ? You would probably enjoy it the same, as you would enjoy the events and not the knowledge that more people are seeing the same thing. I am not sure how you form your opinions, but just look around the events around you. How many live entertainment events are in the world as opposed to recorded ones. The biggest and most important events in the world, the ones that attract the most viewers, are live, and this is not accidental. The appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. And these tournaments exist for the entertainment of the viewers and this is what should be given priority when taking a decision regarding the coverage. I'm sorry but Live Viewing is not that much different from recorded viewing when it comes to an emotional aspect, I understand that you think it is, but it just is not that different. If you don't know the result and it's just being replayed for you live with casters commenting on the action, you wouldn't even know the difference if it was real-time or a pre-recorded thing. And the emotion you feel, while false and shallow, is something towards the players, not the fact that it is happening at that moment. If you watch livestreams of certain players, that's different because it's a person's actual stream where they, themselves normally comment, that's why you are more drawn to personal 'live' streams because you feel a greater 'connection' to the players on the stream. However when it's a casted stream the difference in whether it's live or not makes very little difference, IF the casters do their job well, you feel a connection to the players through the casters or to the casters themselves. HuK, I'm with you all the way, every caster that annoys you and bugs you to stream your games is just another connection, and another person for your opponent to listen to, or to cause lag in a game that is your LIVING. HuK wouldn't ask to come to a person's job who is complaining about the lack of 'live' streaming. And even if he did, if he was being disruptive, or helping competition, or anything of the like, he would be IMMEDIATELY be asked to leave and never return. If you want to keep casters live, then make it a ZERO tolerance policy for casters and video guys, if you lag, are accused or caught of cheating or anything even remotely like that, they are IMMEDIATELY BANNED from ever participating in a SC2 Tourney or casting any more PROFESSIONAL games. | ||
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akomatic
156 Posts
And some of you are saying that someone who makes virtually no money, who has rent due in a few weeks and has been eating rice and noodles for months, who only needs to set up a wireless computer next to his own, or receive telephone info from a friend with virtually no chance of getting caught -- you're saying that person is less likely to cheat? No. Yes people can also cheat by hacking, but that is easier to prove and harder to set up. If my option is to watch a replay, or watch a live game where there is a distinct possibility of cheating, give me the replay please. | ||
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Mastermyth
Netherlands207 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:25 drewbie.root wrote: I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T This is very possible, it was often done in the WC3L for the purpose of anti-cheating. | ||
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:25 drewbie.root wrote: Is there actually a difference between watching the game live and watching a replay of a game played 10 minutes ago that NOBODY knows the results of? I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T I have stated several times before what I consider the differences to be, you can see them in what you quoted. Would you prefer the final of a football/hokey cup to be recorded on the afternoon and streamed on the TV later in the night ? Would you enjoy it the same ? Like I have mentioned, the appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. Switching to casting replays will cause significant drops in the number of viewers. As a player, you should not prefer that, as it would in turn cause less tournaments to be organized and less money investments into the game. | ||
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Killerbot
United States106 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:34 Ancient.eu wrote: I have stated several times before what I consider the differences to be, you can see them in what you quoted. Would you prefer the final of a football/hokey cup to be recorded on the afternoon and streamed on the TV later in the night ? Would you enjoy it the same ? Like I have mentioned, the appeal of a live event is much greater than the appeal of a recorded one. Switching to casting replays will cause significant drops in the number of viewers. As a player, you should not prefer that, as it would in turn cause less tournaments to be organized and less money investments into the game. You cannot compare a sporting event to an esport event, I hate that they use that word as is. Because if you're watching a live sporting event, the casters or reporters arent causing the game to SLOW DOWN and causing missed opportunities because of their presence. Also you can't know exactly what an opponent is doing based on watching a live sporting event, but you can if you even JUST LISTEN to the live stream of casted games. You cannot compare things that are not similar at all and have none of the same properties. | ||
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:36 Killerbot wrote: You cannot compare a sporting event to an esport event, I hate that they use that word as is. Because if you're watching a live sporting event, the casters or reporters arent causing the game to SLOW DOWN and causing missed opportunities because of their presence. Also you can't know exactly what an opponent is doing based on watching a live sporting event, but you can if you even JUST LISTEN to the live stream of casted games. You cannot compare things that are not similar at all and have none of the same properties. From the viewer's point of view, it's the same type of thing, it's entertainment. As a viewer, I am interested in enjoying the event, not in the mechanics of it. Dealing with the mechanics is the responsibility of the organizers. But, as the events are organized for the entertainment of the people, without the viewers, the events would not exist, it is normal that the entertainment of the viewers to be given priority. | ||
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debasers
737 Posts
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:44 debasers wrote: put a delay at the streams, i think it could fix everything Yes, a delay of a few minutes, if it could be done, would be the better solution. | ||
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cyclone25
Romania3344 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:25 drewbie.root wrote: Is there actually a difference between watching the game live and watching a replay of a game played 10 minutes ago that NOBODY knows the results of? I think that streamers should at least delay the stream by 2-3 minutes if they are in the game streaming it live, but I don't know if that is actually possible.. T_T I agree with Ancient.eu. It's a huge difference in watching a live game compared to a recorded game (even if it's 10minutes delayed). You know the game is over. You can't cheer or hope for a player do do something because it already happened! Simply no hype/excitement at all in watching recorded games ... No offense, but you probably don't understand this, since you're a player and you're more interested in analyzing the game, strategies etc. rather than cheering for a player. It's a job for you but it's entertainment for the majority. Also the results can be spoiled so easily with the match history stats on bnet. I'm glad Blizzard did it this way. If we want eSports to grow then people must understand this: spectators are the priority over players! This means live games > recorded games. As for the players cheating by watching the stream ... those who get in the final rounds of a tournament and get their matches streamed, will not risk their sc2 career for anything less than 5000$ so stop being paranoid please. Pro players really need to understand that spectators are more important than them, if we want SC2 and tournament prizes to grow. | ||
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reddog1999
United States143 Posts
Lag is obvious, I don't know how some of you players can stand having 10+ obs in a match, even slight delays affect gameplay. Someone lags out? ok lag might settle down then, but you still had that 1 extra minute to think about whats going on in the game, or that 1 minute that throws you completly off your game. Cheating is huge, and this is the one thing I don't like the most about live streams/obs. People have been cheating in sc since 98 to become well known/pro. It is sad that the integrity of players are low, but its just fact. I wouldn't call anyone out without 100% evidence and this is where the livestream/obs cheating is so benefical. Who can really know if your buddy(or streamer) is telling you important details. I've played a tourney game against someone i won't name, he had a buddy who wanted to obs and i figured he was a respectable person. After watching the replay it was pretty clear his buddy was talking to him, but wheres the proof? so I had to just let it slide and ignore it, but I won't be allowing random obs in any games if I decide to play sc2 at a higher level. I would think the sponsers of these tourney's would not want live stream either inless a 5 minute delay could be put on that stream. Smaller tourney's the prize pool might not seem big enough to be really picky about streaming, but these smaller tourney's give players a name where then they can have a shot at the big bucks and just quit cheating then. You can't really say well if hes cheating he won't be able to compete with the pros because there are many pros who cheated got good then went to korea. I find allowing this to happen in a more fashionable way is just bad for e-sports in general. | ||
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Killerbot
United States106 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:43 Ancient.eu wrote: From the viewer's point of view, it's the same type of thing, it's entertainment. As a viewer, I am interested in enjoying the event, not in the mechanics of it. Dealing with the mechanics is the responsibility of the organizers. But, as the events are organized for the entertainment of the people, without the viewers, the events would not exist, it is normal that the entertainment of the viewers to be given priority. Yes, they are for entertainment, and yes the mechanics are the responsibility of the organizer, however you are dealing with completely separate and far different events. One is easily casted live with no problem, but actually now most 'live' events have between a 5 and 10 second delay to allow possible bleeping or blurring of anything offensive. And I'm sorry but I feel a minority of people would be that upset so as to never watch SC2 again if it went to a 15-20 minute delay between playing and casting. Most people would be unaware of the time difference unless told about it or have the ending ruined for them. And you say that entertainment is better live, but every single show you watch, outside of a select few are completely taped, recorded, and later re-run. You're telling me you never watch re-runs of shows, since it wasn't live? Or you never look up the highlights or scores of sports games you miss simply because you couldn't see it live, to use your still weak analogy? If that were true Sportscenter would fail, no one would watch any TV re-runs, Hulu wouldn't exist. Oh and day9 wouldn't have 6k+ viewers a night. This is a JOB for most players, they get paid handsomely, and even more if they win. To use another sports analogy to continue your analogy, if you went to a golf tournament and heckled a golfer, you would be beaten and dragged out of the tournament. If you ran onto the course or dropped balls to help a player, you would be beaten and dragged out of the tournament. But if you cause lag, which upsets a player just as much as heckling at golf, or you know your 'friend' is listening to your cast while he is playing in a game YOU are casting, and asked to cast, it's okay. A delay would be perfect, but thats what a replay and then cast is, its a 15-20 minutes delay between the action and the cast of the action. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:50 ReDDoG-TrEe wrote: Whats the big difference of casting a game a few minutes after it is over and casting it right away? nothing with the exception of feeling important because you are in that game while they are playing. Bo3+ could easily be streamed just like it was live if players just had to send in the replay right after the game. We are talking about starcraft here and not football, it's not like in football the coaches are watching the live stream of the game and saying hey LOOK AT HIS PLAY BOOK!. Lag is obvious, I don't know how some of you players can stand having 10+ obs in a match, even slight delays affect gameplay. Someone lags out? ok lag might settle down then, but you still had that 1 extra minute to think about whats going on in the game, or that 1 minute that throws you completly off your game. Cheating is huge, and this is the one thing I don't like the most about live streams/obs. People have been cheating in sc since 98 to become well known/pro. It is sad that the integrity of players are low, but its just fact. I wouldn't call anyone out without 100% evidence and this is where the livestream/obs cheating is so benefical. Who can really know if your buddy(or streamer) is telling you important details. I've played a tourney game against someone i won't name, he had a buddy who wanted to obs and i figured he was a respectable person. After watching the replay it was pretty clear his buddy was talking to him, but wheres the proof? so I had to just let it slide and ignore it, but I won't be allowing random obs in any games if I decide to play sc2 at a higher level. I would think the sponsers of these tourney's would not want live stream either inless a 5 minute delay could be put on that stream. Smaller tourney's the prize pool might not seem big enough to be really picky about streaming, but these smaller tourney's give players a name where then they can have a shot at the big bucks and just quit cheating then. You can't really say well if hes cheating he won't be able to compete with the pros because there are many pros who cheated got good then went to korea. I find allowing this to happen in a more fashionable way is just bad for e-sports in general. I'm still unclear what you and other posters are proposing this would play out like if they want to cast a replay as soon as the game finishes... "tourney cast starts" filler for X minutes while game 1 finishes game 1 casting for x minutes, game 2 starts but takes x+5 minutes to finish game 1 cast finishes 5 minutes filler (keep in mind this 5 minutes is variable from 0 to 30min+ so hard to plan what to put in there) game 2 cast starts, entire audience knows that the game takes x+5 minutes to finish (spoiler much?) See the problem here? If you want to cast with replays it's going to have to be after the entire series is over, or complete random ordering - that is, game 1 of X v Y then game 1 of Z v M then game 2 of X v Y etc (which sounds dumb to me), or it's going to be after the entire series, which isn't entirely bad but it could pose major delay issues for tournaments already strapped for time. | ||
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Killerbot
United States106 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:46 cyclone25 wrote: I agree with Ancient.eu. It's a huge difference in watching a live game compared to a recorded game (even if it's 10minutes delayed). You know the game is over. You can't cheer or hope for a player do do something because it already happened! Simply no hype/excitement at all in watching recorded games ... No offense, but you probably don't understand this, since you're a player and you're more interested in analyzing the game, strategies etc. rather than cheering for a player. It's a job for you but it's entertainment for the majority. Also the results can be spoiled so easily with the match history stats on bnet. I'm glad Blizzard did it this way. If we want eSports to grow then people must understand this: spectators are the priority over players! This means live games > recorded games. As for the players cheating by watching the stream ... those who get in the final rounds of a tournament and get their matches streamed, will not risk their sc2 career for anything less than 5000$ so stop being paranoid please. Pro players really need to understand that spectators are more important than them, if we want SC2 and tournament prizes to grow. First, yes if you look up the result and know it then obviously you won't be as interested. But if you avoid the result and no one ruins it by limiting chat or some such thing you would be just as enthralled, and in truth would probably be none the wiser as to whether the game was live or recorded. And you seriously overestimate peoples ability to gauge the consequences of their actions, not to mention I assure you people have listened to streams on ladder games, let alone a tournament game where money is on the line. Spectators are very important, but the truth is the advertisers care more about people AT a specific event rather than watching it. And guess what, if an event is in your area, you can leave you house, brave that sun, and go watch it LIVE, but if it's not in your area, accept that it will be delayed 15-20 minutes, avoid learning a result, which is fairly easy, and watch the replay with excellent casting like HDH, Husky, Artosis, Tasteless, or Day9. And even then I honestly think that main casters are not HuK's main point, as they can be trusted and believed in. It's the 20 casters on TL that have to cast ESL or Gosucoaching and if they don't they whine about not being allowed to cast a game because they are lagging it. So you get full lobbies with 2 player, 1 admin, 2 pro casters, 1 video guy, and 9 amateur casters who are trying to get their stream featured or watched on TL just so they have someone to listen to their opinions. | ||
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AlgeriaT
Sweden2197 Posts
Personally, all that matters to me is that the commentator hasn't seen the game beforehand. I enjoy vods/replays with live commentary just as much as any live stream I've ever seen. In fact, being nervous about lag happening/stream dying/cheating going on makes live streams less enjoyable. Edit: and obviously Blizzard have to implement some sort of private mode for replays of significant tournament matches, but I honestly don't see why they wouldn't. | ||
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Sernen
United States40 Posts
You could either have 3-4 refs following the top players, sending in the replays or ask the players to do it themselves. And lets be realistic here, if you were to tell a top player that he has a choice of either sending in a replay or that he must have multiple casters in his game, I think he could find a way to comprise and get those replays in. Cheating is going to become and issue and as it stands there's no way to prevent it. Certainly the players realize this and its time the admins and streamers accept it as well. You may not like the idea of casting off streams but its something I'm sure you'll get use to as well as the viewers. | ||
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