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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:44 GenoZStriker wrote: Yeah but the stream can be either live or replays. The numbers are what counts right? Yes and streams run off replays draw less numbers than ones casted live. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:41 keV. wrote: Uhh. I don't know that anyone is cheating? Live is more fun to watch and there is no chance of being spoiled. I'm pretty sure that the majority of viewers prefer live streams, even if they agree that they present a considerable risk. I'm surprised that you need explanation. Don't take my comment personal. Because you don't know anyone is cheating, you assume no one is? What method would you suggest to verify someone is cheating? There is no way at all to prove someone cheated using a live stream. All someone needs to do is set their laptop with a livestream running next to their monitor and watch that the whole time. Is it that the top level players in tournaments saying that they think some people cheat is not good enough reason? It just seems that you are only comfortable with live games because you are under the assumption that no one will cheat. If people are cheating, it destroys the integrity of the tournament. On September 07 2010 05:43 Jenslyn87 wrote: So to sum up: Please let your games get casted if you don't have a very good reason not to. It's good for you as a player to get exposure, and it's cool for us as viewers to see strong players in action  Define what you believe to be a good reason. Is the possibility of the opponent cheating good enough reason. In a lot of big tournaments, a lot of people haven't even heard of each other, in the beginning rounds at least. What reason do they have to trust them? With it being SO INCREDIBLY EASY to cheat, is that not a good reason? | ||
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Z3kk
4099 Posts
That way, players can be IP banned from streams when they play their games--they can be unbanned when they finish. | ||
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
If people just started streaming replays, I would stop watching most of the events that I am watching now. I would probably just limit my time to the big events only. The simple solution would be for each competition to have one single official streaming channel with 1 or 2 casters. This way, there wouldn't be lag problems caused by games with a large number of spectators and the competition between streamers would significantly increase. Also, the dedicated streamers would invest into better equipment and better internet connections. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:51 Ancient.eu wrote: I strongly prefer live games. They have a unique feeling, an empathy connection between the games and the audience. As a spectator, you live the events of the games as they happen in real time and this feeling is the beauty of a live transmission. If people just started streaming replays, I would stop watching most of the events that I am watching now. I would probably just limit my time to the big events only. Did you watch HDH Invitational? The Day9 tournament? KOTB? Those were among the most successful tournaments to date. You chose not to watch them because they were replays? | ||
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:47 Mohdoo wrote: Because you don't know anyone is cheating, you assume no one is? What method would you suggest to verify someone is cheating? There is no way at all to prove someone cheated using a live stream. All someone needs to do is set their laptop with a livestream running next to their monitor and watch that the whole time. Is it that the top level players in tournaments saying that they think some people cheat is not good enough reason? It just seems that you are only comfortable with live games because you are under the assumption that no one will cheat. If people are cheating, it destroys the integrity of the tournament. Look man, the only thing I said was that your poll could be worded better. That clearly flew over your head. You're arguing with me over the OP, instead of what I actually said. Let me try and clarify. I prefer to watch events live, like most viewers. That DOES NOT mean, that I don't acknowledge the risk of potential cheating. I believe what needs to happen is a switch to replays, but I don't "prefer" said change. The only point I was making, is that someones personal preference, often doesn't reflect what they actually believe. You wanted an accurate poll. I'm saying that your poor word choice could skew the results. | ||
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GenoZStriker
United States2914 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:46 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Yes and streams run off replays draw less numbers than ones casted live. That depends on the coverage, hype, players, tournament and time. In iCCups case I don't suggest it. But other tournaments can get away with it. | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:43 Arkless wrote:I mean hell, I was watching Ryan vs Suggy in zotac yesterday and Ryan was responding to questions on bnet chat, from questions gunrunner was saying on the stream. If thats not bm/cheating I dont know what is! I recall that part of the stream. Somebody was typing in game, appearing to respond to question from the casters on the stream, and the caster was like, 'Wait... you're not replying to me now, aren't you?" It was a bit unclear what was going on there. Edit: Also, that poll doesn't make sense. Avoiding cheating doesn't require replays... What about a 2 min tape delay? Personally, an ideal solution seems to be: 2-3 min stream delay (people WANT live over replays) + a system where obs cannot slow down the game. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:53 keV. wrote: Look man, the only thing I said was that your poll could be worded better. That clearly flew over your head. You're arguing with me over the OP, instead of what I actually said. Let me try and clarify. I prefer to watch events live, like most viewers. That DOES NOT mean, that I don't acknowledge the risk of potential cheating. I believe what needs to happen is a switch to replays, but I don't "prefer" said change. The only point I was making, is that someones personal preference, often doesn't reflect what they actually believe. You wanted an accurate poll. I'm saying that your poor word choice could skew the results. My apologies then. If I am able to edit it, I will. I understand your perspective better, thank you! edit: Can't, I don't think. Though I'd imagine most people will vote based on what it comes down to, not an ideal situation. | ||
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HuK
Canada1591 Posts
On September 07 2010 04:24 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I don't know what is going on with ESL so I will withdraw that point. But I did have to ask you every single round for replays. You did send them but only after asking. as soon as i finished the games i sent in the replays, just because i said " im done" and u said "send me the replays" doesn't mean you had to go out of your way to get the replays | ||
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:47 Mohdoo wrote: Because you don't know anyone is cheating, you assume no one is? What method would you suggest to verify someone is cheating? There is no way at all to prove someone cheated using a live stream. All someone needs to do is set their laptop with a livestream running next to their monitor and watch that the whole time. Is it that the top level players in tournaments saying that they think some people cheat is not good enough reason? It just seems that you are only comfortable with live games because you are under the assumption that no one will cheat. If people are cheating, it destroys the integrity of the tournament. Define what you believe to be a good reason. Is the possibility of the opponent cheating good enough reason. In a lot of big tournaments, a lot of people haven't even heard of each other, in the beginning rounds at least. What reason do they have to trust them? With it being SO INCREDIBLY EASY to cheat, is that not a good reason? Good point man and it's a real shame... I couldn't be the one to say if these strong players would cheat or not. Maybe I am naive to think they won't because they try to be the best they can be for LAN tournaments. But then again I do have to recognize Huk's point about cash prizing causing players to possibly cheat to win... This is a tough call :/ | ||
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Ancient.eu
Romania621 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:53 Mohdoo wrote: Did you watch HDH Invitational? The Day9 tournament? KOTB? Those were among the most successful tournaments to date. You chose not to watch them because they were replays? Like I have mentioned, I would probably limit my time to the big events only. I have followed the HDH and the KotB tournaments but they were the 2 biggest beta tournaments. But I would not watch daily streams and weekly tournaments with replays being casted. I just don't enjoy them and would just spend my time doing something else. What people should understand is that tournaments are for the entertainment of the people watching, and that should be given priority when taking decisions regarding the type of coverage. | ||
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Therick
Norway324 Posts
imo close this bs, it aint going nowhere. "i agree with huk" "fuk all casters" "cast replays herp derp" "No? add delay den" ![[image loading]](http://yourargumentisinvalid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/the_cat_is_pushing_a_watermelon_out_of_a_lake.thumbnail.jpg) | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
That's exactly 1024 replays that are released if EVERY game is a best of 1 (and includes a game for third place). If you think getting 1024 replays available for download and casting is easier than casting the games live, I think you should re-evaluate what is considered "difficult" and what is considered "easy". It gets even worse in a tournament where you want to follow specific players: some players are popular, and as such their replays will be wanted "more". Have fun, as a player, giving out the replay to multiple sources instead of having it casted live. People quoting the success of HDH and Day9's KotB shouldn't forget the trouble these two tournaments had acquiring the replays: Day9 gave a pretty startling, vivid image of horror and depravity when it came to securing the replays from players. I could only imagine Hell would be unleashed if lots of people were relied upon. Oh, and there's nothing stopping people cheating via replays.  | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:57 dizzy101 wrote: I recall that part of the stream. Somebody was typing in game, appearing to respond to question from the casters on the stream, and the caster was like, 'Wait... you're not replying to me now, aren't you?" It was a bit unclear what was going on there. I don't remember the exact topic of the conversation, but I know it spanned more than just one question. It was multiple answers to multiple questions. Over I would say about a 3-4 minute span before they just went back to casting the game. Here is my problem with even a 3 min delay when it comes to livestreams/cheating. For example, if a terran is doing a 1/1/1. And the caster says blah blah destiny cloudfist blah blah. You can bet two minutes later he is still doing his destiny cloudfist build. And macro around that. Thats just one out of a gajillion examples I could give you. As far as livestream IP bans are concerned. Their is about 1 million ways around that, IP masks, multiple computers, a laptop on ur neighbours wireless etc....... The fact is, if you jump into a stream 9x out of 10 they have the image that will cover the time bar/camera bar regardless if its a livestream or replay. Unless you saw them join the replay, I doubt you would honestly notice the difference. Cheating, and keeping this game's integrity intact are of most importance, not everyone and their mother who wants to stream. | ||
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Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:06 Ancient.eu wrote: Like I have mentioned, I would probably limit my time to the big events only. I have followed the HDH and the KotB tournaments but they were the 2 biggest beta tournaments. But I would not watch daily streams and weekly tournaments with replays being casted. I just don't enjoy them and would just spend my time doing something else. even though you see the exact same game being played? i doubt you'd even notice. the appeal of watching something live doesnt come from omg this is happening right now, it comes from everyone is watching this along with me and we are seeing the game unfold at the same time, which is why replay events are successful. | ||
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Grettin
42384 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:09 Cranberries wrote: Imagine if there was a 1024 player tournament. That's exactly 1024 replays that are released if EVERY game is a best of 1 (and includes a game for third place). If you think getting 1024 replays available for download and casting is easier than casting the games live, I think you should re-evaluate what is considered "difficult" and what is considered "easy". It gets even worse in a tournament where you want to follow specific players: some players are popular, and as such their replays will be wanted "more". Have fun, as a player, giving out the replay to multiple sources instead of having it casted live. The way i see it, if its a huge tournament, its organizers problem to solve out the replays if he wants to host such large tournament. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:05 Jenslyn87 wrote: Good point man and it's a real shame... I couldn't be the one to say if these strong players would cheat or not. Maybe I am naive to think they won't because they try to be the best they can be for LAN tournaments. But then again I do have to recognize Huk's point about cash prizing causing players to possibly cheat to win... This is a tough call :/ I will assume that you are less active and knowledgeable on past happenings in high level competitions in games such as Brood War and WC3, but it has happened. There have even been times where very high level players were caught map hacking. Its extremely unfortunate, and you'd think they would all have higher standards...And a lot of them do...But not all of them. Don't get me wrong, I wish it wasn't like that. But it is. There have been more than enough times where cheating has happened to know that it is a genuine issue. I feel like a lot of people who aren't worried about streamed games are just people who don't have as long of a history with the "semi-pro" scene to know that it is a very real issue. I'm not saying everyone cheats. But in a 200 person tournament, isn't even 1 person cheating enough to just switch to replays? On September 07 2010 06:09 Cranberries wrote: Imagine if there was a 1024 player tournament. That's exactly 1024 replays that are released if EVERY game is a best of 1 (and includes a game for third place). If you think getting 1024 replays available for download and casting is easier than casting the games live, I think you should re-evaluate what is considered "difficult" and what is considered "easy". It gets even worse in a tournament where you want to follow specific players: some players are popular, and as such their replays will be wanted "more". Have fun, as a player, giving out the replay to multiple sources instead of having it casted live. People quoting the success of HDH and Day9's KotB shouldn't forget the trouble these two tournaments had acquiring the replays: Day9 gave a pretty startling, vivid image of horror and depravity when it came to securing the replays from players. I could only imagine Hell would be unleashed if lots of people were relied upon. Oh, and there's nothing stopping people cheating via replays. You make it sound like all of those games would be casted anyway. In tournaments like that, not nearly close to the majority of the games are even casted. Its always just the highlights or the best players' games. The exact same amount of games can be casted, whether it is through replays or live. Penalize players for not giving replays. Problem solved. Every replay is automatically saved. It will never be impossible for a player to send a replay in. They can e-mail it as well as tons of other things. Harsh punishments for not submitting replays is extremely reasonable in a game that automatically saves the last 10 games or whatever. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:53 Mohdoo wrote: Did you watch HDH Invitational? The Day9 tournament? KOTB? Those were among the most successful tournaments to date. You chose not to watch them because they were replays? Comparing these tournaments to little $50-100 weekly events is silly and you know it. I'm sure if NBC only broadcasted a "replay" of the Super Bowl rather than the live event it'd still get more viewers than the local High School state championship game casted live. That doesn't prove that replays = win. | ||
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GenoZStriker
United States2914 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:09 Cranberries wrote: Imagine if there was a 1024 player tournament. That's exactly 1024 replays that are released if EVERY game is a best of 1 (and includes a game for third place). If you think getting 1024 replays available for download and casting is easier than casting the games live, I think you should re-evaluate what is considered "difficult" and what is considered "easy". It gets even worse in a tournament where you want to follow specific players: some players are popular, and as such their replays will be wanted "more". Have fun, as a player, giving out the replay to multiple sources instead of having it casted live. People quoting the success of HDH and Day9's KotB shouldn't forget the trouble these two tournaments had acquiring the replays: Day9 gave a pretty startling, vivid image of horror and depravity when it came to securing the replays from players. I could only imagine Hell would be unleashed if lots of people were relied upon. Oh, and there's nothing stopping people cheating via replays. A 1024 player tournament is not going to see all those games casted live anyway. The least you will get is one game per round. Because it ends faster due to it beig BO1 | ||
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