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8750 Posts
Top players are the product. Viewers are the customers. When you have all the top players saying "this tournament sucked cuz it lagged and people were cheating" and they decide to play in other tournaments, you can replace them with the players right below them but viewer numbers will drop and sponsors will flee. The tournaments that run things properly for the players will succeed. The only way the shitty tournaments survive is because the players have nothing else to do at that time.
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to all the Viewers > Players will have better games to watch if there is no chance of cheating and less lag.
so long as its not spoiled by the griefers a casted replay a few minutes after the game should have no real difference for an online event vs a replay.
On September 07 2010 04:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Top players are the product. Viewers are the customers. When you have all the top players saying "this tournament sucked cuz it lagged and people were cheating" and they decide to play in other tournaments, you can replace them with the players right below them but viewer numbers will drop and sponsors will flee. The tournaments that run things properly for the players will succeed. The only way the shitty tournaments survive is because the players have nothing else to do at that time.
A great point, I'd much rather watch players like yourself, Idra or any of the other big names then lesser players, even if that means watching replays a few minutes after a match.
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On September 07 2010 04:08 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:06 RoarMan wrote:On September 07 2010 03:49 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 07 2010 03:48 RoarMan wrote:On September 07 2010 03:45 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 07 2010 03:40 Whalecore wrote:
/signed
Casting sites needs to implement delay-feature if it isn't already possible. Dude have you read the thread? It's not possible without spending a lot of $. Then the only other alternative without having casters in-game is to cast replays. And again there is a host of issues but most importantly spoilers. There's no one solution here besides LAN's and Blizz doing something about it (which we know won't happen). ....... in which case you have to cast the replays. This is definitely an issue that Blizzard has to handle, it's pretty damn sad to see a split between casters and players because of these issues. Ugh let me repeat myself again. 98% of the player base including the OP is absolutely atrocious about submitting replays. HuK did nto upload replays for a tournament that is a live LAN and has over $12k in prizes. Imagine pulling replays for a couple hundred $ tourney. Also spoilers, I've had it happen, HDH had it happen. Until you can set certain custom games to private on your profile there is no way to avoid this.
Diamond, yesterday there was lag no matter what happened. The odd time even our Ref left the game, and within seconds of the game being over he had the replay and it was being passed onto the caster. If players are able to do what HuK did with the replays, casters have no right to bitch.
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One caster per game must be enough, they can all tune into the same stream, and that one caster should have his shit in order, you can't compete on a pro level with lag, it's disgraceful imo.
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Tyler didn't see Dimaga post here so your post is invalid.... j/k
Still Idra>>Dimaga>>Morrow>> Huk when it comes to entertaining top players.
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On September 07 2010 04:52 grigorin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:34 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 07 2010 04:26 grigorin wrote:On September 07 2010 03:49 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 07 2010 03:45 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 07 2010 03:40 Whalecore wrote:
/signed
Casting sites needs to implement delay-feature if it isn't already possible. Dude have you read the thread? It's not possible without spending a lot of $. Capture screen but don't stream it directly -- save it to a file on local disk. Second computer networked with first opens the file 30 mins later and streams it. I just tested this with my PC and a laptop. It was as easy as I thought. vhscrcap + fmle saves an flv file to a folder that I'm sharing for streaming on my network. Laptop opens the file and has its own vhscrcap + fmle setup and streams VLC playing the file. You set the length of the delay by calculating the time between recording the file on the first PC and opening the file on the second PC. nice - the only thing I can imagine is, that the streamer will not have as much fun as before and there would be no way the caster can influence what is shown on screen (not so much of a problem, if you consider in SC:BW it was the only way to get english casts of pro games - but the streamer has to be really good to catch all the action) the caster can be on the first computer that is capturing the video and audio. it's really no different to him. after one or two games he needs to take a short break to start the stream on his second computer and that's it but does it work with more than one caster? Otherwise it would "only" eliminate the cheating issue.
Of course. All this merely does is delay the stream you want to stream by having another computer buffer it before sending it out. I assumed it was doable but I was unsure of how streaming into the video file would work since I'm not familar w/ various codecs in playing a file that is still being constructed, so to speak. But if tee-ler was able to do it, then it shouldn't be that bad.
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For whatever it's worth, I don't see the problem with just casting replays and leaving out the live stuff for non-LAN play. Just make sure that there's not one privileged caster that does get the opportunity to do it live, and make the replay available to the appropriate people quickly and at the same time. If the players are suffering and games are being influenced and delayed by casters, something's got to change.
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On September 06 2010 19:28 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 19:02 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On September 06 2010 18:59 heyoka wrote:On September 06 2010 18:37 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:As a tournament admin for 3 years on PGTour and iCCup even when there are rules to require replay uploads enforcing them for every game in a large scale tournament is largely impossible. Players can upload dummy replays, especially with blizzard changing the replay formatting every patch so the file can go back to view the proper patch. This causes an issue where automatic parsing of replays isnt always possible and sorting through every replay to make sure the ones provided are in fact the correct games is not possible. And trust me over many years on iCCup a lot of players just uploaded fake replays instead of putting in the effort they did not care because the prize was not enough. Once you catch on to the fact that it is a fake replay it is most likely too late as they are playing in further round(s) of the tournament in a large scale event. Even wrangling replays from top players can be tough see IEM group stages still missing Huk vs Machine replays http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/america/sc2/championship/match/19676021/ in a major event with several thousand dollars on the line. Ironically involving the OP who claims we should just cast from replays. So basically in the small tournaments players might not care enough to provide replays and take the DQ, big tournaments are either playing too many games to keep track of this or are too high profile and big scale so that disqualifying someone for merely not providing replays causes massive controversy and rage. Can you imagine if ESL disqualified Huk for not uploading those replays in a timely manner? Machine won but did not advance so whose responsibility is it? Stop and think about how much backlash there would be about that. Ultimately dealing with replays causes so much more time and effort from everyone involved and causes so much trouble on all ends of the equation that what is the plus side? The third part of the OP about stress? Yeah worse with replays for every player involved. Most of the top players know eachother they practice with eachother and are pretty confident that they are not cheating even in online play. Most of the time if someone is it becomes rather obvious as I've been in situations where it was in question if someone was cheating off my stream so we backed off the casting to test it and the player made it very obvious by the way they react to the change of casting. It's not the perfect solution but ultimately it's what the sponsors and viewers want to see and they're the ones providing the $$ for you to play over. Why is having a ref in the match not a solution here? He can deal with replays as well as be there to enforce any possible rulings (ie making sure players are on time). TSL 1&2: ref lags players tell him to leave Plus the fact that in big tournaments ie the one that Huk keeps citing from this morning having a ref in every game is not possible. In SC2 the ref can be put into a situation where the players pause the game and refuse to resume until you leave because of lag. Happened in IEM cologne again top players demanding that the stream leave the game when without the stream the prize pool doesn't exist. I'm confused, this is 1 person to gather replays instead of 2 casters 1 admin 1 streamer, how is this a worse situation?
A proper coverageteam has 2 casters which has one or both streaming. Are quite willing to communicate and negotiate with admins and are flexible. They also have proper internet and if they do cause a lag popup, leave.
Generally, takes two casters to cover a tournament and not fuck yourself up in the process. That's all glhf needs for example unless the admins request guest commentators which of course takes extra slots.
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On September 07 2010 04:48 Frosten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:24 RoarMan wrote:
So why did people run tournaments before corporate sponsorship? Before mass media so people could watch it?
I'm sorry but I think you're the one who has it wrong. A player will participate in a tournament because
he wants to prove himself. That's what a tournament is, competition. Entertainment is merely a by-product of it. Please try to understand, I mean what's a tournament with a $1 million dollar sponsorship but no players? Please, just stop exaggerating this much. Yes, people are competitive. Gamers are competitive. People in all walks of life have the urge to prove themselves somehow, thus a lot of us will take that chance when offered if we feel we have something to contribute with. But, your argument ends right there. If those competitive people have that same chance while competing for a large cash price, obviously they would go for that instead of something which offered nothing but a pat on the back and some efame for a very small select group of people. Entertainment is what makes those big cash prices possible and it promotes players to become better and better since their results now actually matters in their daily life instead of just being a name on the internet. It's just a pointless discussion and it's not what should be discussed in this thread. This thread is about making it better for both the players and streamers. Not a discussion about who makes what possible. It's a synergy. They feed and nurture each other. The end.
How am I exaggerating?
I don't feel I am getting through to you, so I'll basically quote Tyler because I feel contributes to what I'm trying to get at
On September 07 2010 04:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Top players are the product. Viewers are the customers. When you have all the top players saying "this tournament sucked cuz it lagged and people were cheating" and they decide to play in other tournaments, you can replace them with the players right below them but viewer numbers will drop and sponsors will flee. The tournaments that run things properly for the players will succeed. The only way the shitty tournaments survive is because the players have nothing else to do at that time.
Also
On September 07 2010 04:48 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:47 RoarMan wrote:On September 07 2010 04:42 RxN wrote:On September 07 2010 04:24 RoarMan wrote:On September 07 2010 04:15 Frankon wrote:On September 07 2010 04:12 RoarMan wrote:
The point I'm trying hard to iterate is this: The players ultimately will get to decide. They are the ones playing the game. A tournament is for players, people may want to watch it yes, but the players are the ones who are actually engaging it and are the core reason to run a tournament in the first place.
You get it so wrong. Tournament is for viewers. Its a ENTERTAINMENT. Players try to earn money but more importantly entertain the viewers. Core reason to run a sponsored tournament is to get a low cost advertisement for the sponsors. So why did people run tournaments before corporate sponsorship? Before mass media so people could watch it? I'm sorry but I think you're the one who has it wrong. A player will participate in a tournament because he wants to prove himself. That's what a tournament is, competition. Entertainment is merely a by-product of it. Please try to understand, I mean what's a tournament with a $1 million dollar sponsorship but no players? On September 07 2010 04:16 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 07 2010 04:12 RoarMan wrote:
I completely understand the chance of spoilers, the problems of people not submitting replays, I've run a couple tourneys myself.
The point I'm trying hard to iterate is this: The players ultimately will get to decide. They are the ones playing the game. A tournament is for players, people may want to watch it yes, but the players are the ones who are actually engaging it and are the core reason to run a tournament in the first place.
I get it, HuK didn't post replays, he's a lazy fuck or w.e. But if you try to reach a compromise, show respect to the player side, I'm sure you'll get it back. I personally have not had that big of a problem with people sending me replays in free tournaments, the occasional 1 or 2 sets where I had to ask someone but I really didn't think it was a problem. Well without the viewers than these tournaments will not be for $. That's why companies sponsor them. For people to see their company name. I can be the very best Diablo II PvP player in the universe but if no one is watching me prove that than I will be doing it all for free, there would be no prize $. There is a mutual relationship, and unfortunately one where viewers > players. Well in free tournaments you are mainly dealing with lower level players who are DYING to make their name. But with established pros they rarely do it, and even Day9 has commented on this before. Imagine running down 256 people for replays or 512...... I seriously doubt you'd want to cast 256 games live anyways. I get that without viewership or sponsor, no money, but I'm still trying to press the matter that it is still ultimately the players who will decide wether or not they want to participate, money or no money. Obviously money attracts the better players, but again players are expressing the fact that they do not want to play in an environment with lag. I mean with more money on the line doesn't it mean that the players should be catered so they can play at the fullest? So that lag isn't a problem, so that it's an even and fair match? But really all we can do is speculate about what this issue will blow up to, I honestly think that it will come to casting replays if Blizzard doesn't do something. On September 07 2010 04:23 Opinion wrote:On September 07 2010 04:15 Frankon wrote:On September 07 2010 04:12 RoarMan wrote:
The point I'm trying hard to iterate is this: The players ultimately will get to decide. They are the ones playing the game. A tournament is for players, people may want to watch it yes, but the players are the ones who are actually engaging it and are the core reason to run a tournament in the first place.
You get it so wrong. Tournament is for viewers. Its a ENTERTAINMENT. Players try to earn money but more importantly entertain the viewers. Core reason to run a sponsored tournament is to get a low cost advertisement for the sponsors. Exactly. SC2 wouldn't be nearly as valuable for sponsors if not for it's value as a spectator event. 1st and Ideally you want asses in seats, watching live, in the same room. 2nd you want live cast events. 3rd you have replays... maybe even fourth. I would rather listen to a live game than watch a replay to be honest. I seriously doubt you'd rather listen to a live game then watch it a pre-recorded game, I can say that with confidence. Again money is something to DRAW in the players, players aren't meant to drawn in the money. And what were those prize pools before corporate sponsorship? I guarantee they weren't anywhere near the size they are now, or the potential size they can be with increased popularity. I was playing counter-strike when the first CPL took place way back in 2000 (or whatever year it was). After that event, the sponsors started flooding in and the prize pool for tournaments went up to the point that all these organizations like EG popped up. Why? Because the sponsors saw that people wanted to watch CS matches. Viewers are what drive this "e-sport". Not the players. For every player that chooses not to participate in a tournament, there will be another 50 waiting to take his place. And in the end, the only thing it's going to cost that player is potential sponsors as his name won't be out there. And where do you get this concept of people wanting to watch a replay than a live cast? In SC and professional sports, my interest level drops tremendously if I don't watch something live. There have been countless times where I've DVR'd an NFL game or something and then never watched it because I just didn't care after the fact. I understand both sides of the argument and I think the best possible solution is for there to be 1 or 2 approved casters casting matches. Or you can even assign 5-6 casters to follow certain high profile players through the tourney and then when, say the elite 8, hits, the 1 or 2 approved casters take over. I really believe this is a truly selfish way to look at it. What are you guys saying then? The players are monkeys dancing around for coins? Viewership is important, it's valuable yes. Money is important, yes. But aren't the players something to be placed above that? The game itself? I mean c'mon, what's a a million viewers with a million dollar price pool if all we get is lack luster games because the players are in an uncomfortable environment? Selfish? Please. Get off your high horse. Selfish is expecting sponsors to throw money at you for playing a game in a situation that they get no benefit from, i.e. nobody watching the game you're playing. Players can be placed above it....in tournaments where there are no sponsors or money on the line.
I'm sorry if I seem like a tool, but I strongly believe in catering to the players needs because they are doing this for a fucking living. They dedicate their lives and time to this game, and all the viewers can do is cry because we don't get to watch the games live? That doesn't sound selfish?
I fully understand that sponsors are expecting some sort of a return from their investments, but I don't think that any alternative to live games will kill viewership completely.
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Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Person 1: "Hey just use replays"
Person 2: "Dude there is a problem with spoilers and players not sending in replays, plus you will get less viewers with replays than live"
Person 1: "Oh just add a delay"
Person 2: "That's alot of $ and really not feasible."
Person 1: "Oh, well than idk"
Person 3: "Just use replays..."
Until something new comes up in this thread I am withdrawing. There is issues on both sides and there is no right answer. Blizzard could make a fix for this but will not because it's blizzard and having 2 sweet ass computers just to run a stream is also not feasible.
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On September 07 2010 05:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Person 1: "Hey just use replays"
Person 2: "Dude there is a problem with spoilers and players not sending in replays, plus you will get less viewers with replays than live"
Person 1: "Oh just add a delay"
Person 2: "That's alot of $ and really not feasible."
Person 1: "Oh, well than idk"
Person 3: "Just use replays..."
Until something new comes up in this thread I am withdrawing. There is issues on both sides and there is no right answer. Blizzard could make a fix for this but will not because it's blizzard and having 2 sweet ass computers just to run a stream is also not feasible.
Yes honestly this is something only Blizzard can solve.
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Sadly the lack of good coverage from esports site also comes into play. Because like I said in one of my previous post, before there was live stream, players got their recognition and sponsorship simply by having their names mentioned in news post on multiple esports news site or having an article written about their upset and what not. Replays and casted VOD also did the trick. But because Starcraft 2 isn't well developed yet, there are no leagues (solo/team) or a lot of majors, so esports site can't do much. Online cups is mostly what the scene has which is why streaming seems like the most important thing because that's the only way you can follow it because news site won't bother with it because they are too much.
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the whole LAN "fix" wont fix things when people are in different countries
kinda need a direct connection
the only "fix" i can see for cross country tournaments is one obs in the game and everyone obs from him and casts the game from his perspective out of the game
seems reasonable to me atleast
you both have a live cast and it will be delayed slightly due to the obs streaming to everyone
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On September 07 2010 05:15 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Person 1: "Hey just use replays"
Person 2: "Dude there is a problem with spoilers and players not sending in replays, plus you will get less viewers with replays than live"
Person 1: "Oh just add a delay"
Person 2: "That's alot of $ and really not feasible."
Person 1: "Oh, well than idk"
Person 3: "Just use replays..."
Until something new comes up in this thread I am withdrawing. There is issues on both sides and there is no right answer. Blizzard could make a fix for this but will not because it's blizzard and having 2 sweet ass computers just to run a stream is also not feasible. Yes honestly this is something only Blizzard can solve.
Then, we may have to wait for HotS :p
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8750 Posts
On September 07 2010 05:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Person 1: "Hey just use replays"
Person 2: "Dude there is a problem with spoilers and players not sending in replays, plus you will get less viewers with replays than live"
Person 1: "Oh just add a delay"
Person 2: "That's alot of $ and really not feasible."
Person 1: "Oh, well than idk"
Person 3: "Just use replays..."
Until something new comes up in this thread I am withdrawing. There is issues on both sides and there is no right answer. Blizzard could make a fix for this but will not because it's blizzard and having 2 sweet ass computers just to run a stream is also not feasible.
I don't see how the delay is that difficult for any decent streamer. Many people who aren't interested in streaming at all already have two capable PC's at home for other reasons.
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On September 07 2010 05:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ugh this thread is the biggest repeat ever.
Probably because alot of it is a matter of opinions.
Personally I believe that for tournaments there should be a delay in the cast (say, 2 minutes), while offline tournaments can be shown without delay. I have been admin for the WC3L for awhile and I can guarantee you that people have already abused livestreams in SC2 money tournaments. There is absolutely no way to find out about it, unless the player is pants-on-head retarded and does a no scout proxy on a 4 player map or whatever. Certain players I have adminned in the past, that have now transitioned into SC2, will do anything they can get away with to win.
The lag is annoying but I don't think it can really be helped, until there is a way to get a stream into a game without observers being able to affect player lag.
The stress is Bnets fault for forcing so much effort into communication and such. Private chat channels help tons with organising games for streamers and such.
In the end everyone suffers from these things, the players directly but the viewers indirectly. Players simply deliver far better games when they're in a comfortable situation and can just play their game without worries.
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Start casting the replays IMO, or just at the most allow a streamer/admin if needed, the casters can cast off the streamers stream, no reason for 14++ people(whatever ist he limit now) to be in one game making it unplayable.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Of course players should kick casters. Who needs some idiots talking over the players if the players deem it necessary to kick the caster (lag or whatever reason)? Fuck casters' crying.
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@Diamond: what is new: nony suggested a solution to introduce a delay which doesn't require a lot of $.
Btw, I think not many people noticed, but idra made a post some pages ago, which explained why having a delay might not solve the cheating issue completely (his example was having a hidden expo for the whole game iirc), so that argument should not be forgotten.
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I'm sorry, but can someone explain to me why there would be less viewers if they were casted replays then if it were live - assuming no spoilers, shortly after the games have been played, with equivalent casting.
If it were the industry standard ( that is, casters could only cast from replays), i don't see why people wouldn't watch the games.
I mean, last time i checked, HDH and KOTB were kind of successful.
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EPT
