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Now I know that battle-cruisers will be nerfed in the following patch, nevertheless I think it would be a much bigger help if SCVs simply wouldn't be allowed to repair air-units
if you can't imagine why I would bring up something like that in a unique thread just watch this replay:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/906
tester vs augustwerra; the terran hides a starport and although tester scouted the fusion core he lost to a single battle-cruiser who was surrounded by SCVs and therefore constantly repaired; the terran even microed horribly at the beginning starting the repair way to late and still tester wasn't even close to win the fight, although he had stalkers and void rays and the terran had no anti-air besides the battle-cruiser
I'm aware that I'm sounding like a whiny little protoss-player right now, but battlecruisers getting auto-repaired by SCVs during a fight owning everything just because of the repair.....that just feels so wrong....
what do you think?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
reopened, dno why it was closed to begin with
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Its one of the advantages of terran, yes it can be annoying, but everything can be exaggerated imo.
No im not terran, zerg actually, but I think feedback can be made to look OP as well, 5 temps behind your army and 1/2 of the terran units are drained of all energy and either damaged or destroyed.
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No, they should just repair much slower and have diminishing returns.
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On September 06 2010 19:41 Plexa wrote:
reopened, dno why it was closed to begin with
Close it again, don't want this battlecruiser business catching on ladder 
Just watched his game on stream... scary.
On September 06 2010 19:45 Bensio wrote:
Its one of the advantages of terran, yes it can be annoying, but everything can be exaggerated imo.
No im not terran, zerg actually, but I think feedback can be made to look OP as well, 5 temps behind your army and 1/2 of the terran units are drained of all energy and either damaged or destroyed.
EMP > Feedback. While on topic of BC's and templars... Could you have HT's out by the time BC attack comes? Would storm be ready? Would be a nice way to take care of the SCV's//MM You'd have a feedback to throw at the BC after SCVs were dead too.
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On September 06 2010 19:41 Plexa wrote:
reopened, dno why it was closed to begin with
thanks - didn't want to appear like a crybaby in the other thread, but I think this strat is really a strong new addition to the terran-arsenal
I don't wanna start with shouting "imba", but the main problem we can see from the replay is, that the BC can be moved back in order to be repaired, while eg. void rays would meanwhile get roasted by the MM-ball; I'm not really sure how I would play against it, probably go for a timing-push and surprise the terran in his own base before he can get a critical mass of MM to support
EDIT: feedback does in fact seem like a good idea; will remember it when I meet BCs
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If anything the SCVs should have be given the highest attack priority.
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Grats on the reopening. You did call this, a week before it happened, so grats on that as well.
Honestly, I think the SCVs should have a diminishing returns on air units because it isn't exactly fair that they have a MASSIVE repair area for BCs. You can repair a BC with about 12-15 at a time.
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Yes, a wide-ranging fix is needed for a specific "problem." I hope Blizzard doesn't touch this game for a bit and lets people develop actual counters rather than rushing in to fix every "imba" immediately. Boxer's bunker rushes didn't need to be patch nerfed by making bunkers unrepairable, they were nerfed by better micro and actual changes in zergs idea of how to defend,.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:45 CurLy[] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 19:41 Plexa wrote:
reopened, dno why it was closed to begin with Close it again, don't want this battlecruiser business catching on
as a Protoss player, I kinda agree LOL
August really showing just how strong they are. I would offer up a replay of my crushing a similar strategy, but I can't find it  nevertheless, it's a real pain to deal with. Basically involved making a lot of stalker/sentry and using FF to stop the SCVs from repairing the BCs. If the Terran was any good he would have retreated the BC, but he didn't.
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On September 06 2010 19:48 cz wrote:
Yes, a wide-ranging fix is needed for a specific "problem." I hope Blizzard doesn't touch this game for a bit and lets people develop actual counters rather than rushing in to fix every "imba" immediately. Boxer's bunker rushes didn't need to be patch nerfed by making bunkers unrepairable, they were nerfed by better micro and actual changes in zergs idea of how to defend,.
I think Blizzard has definitely shown so far that they are willing to wait, so I really hope they do, especially with a -2 change already coming.
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I think it would be easier to just nerf mass-repair, that way we wont end up with Thor with ~100 kills, and it would lower the ammount of allins a Terran has at his disposal (such as mara-scv-hellion, tank-scv-marine thor-scv-whatever etc...) and it solves your problem as well
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On September 06 2010 19:50 Plexa wrote:Basically involved making a lot of stalker/sentry and using FF to stop the SCVs from repairing the BCs. If the Terran was any good he would have retreated the BC, but he didn't.
since you are probably a much better player than I am....have you tried feedback, if no why not if yes, how did it go?
another question: can the yamato-cannon be used on friendly units/buildings and/or neutral units/buildings? because then obviously the terran could get rid of the energy before the battle
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I think diminishing returns for repairing stuff is a good idea, it would be kinda like the compensation for autorepair. I would even think that it should count for all units, not just air, it's just as annoying when used on thors or PFs, as both offer a huge space, rendering melee units useless while requiring no micro ar all.
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On September 06 2010 19:56 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 19:50 Plexa wrote:Basically involved making a lot of stalker/sentry and using FF to stop the SCVs from repairing the BCs. If the Terran was any good he would have retreated the BC, but he didn't. since you are probably a much better player than I am....have you tried feedback, if no why not if yes, how did it go? another question: can the yamato-cannon be used on friendly units/buildings and/or neutral units/buildings? because then obviously the terran could get rid of the energy before the battle
Its just like a standard attack, can hit whatever you want. The range is pretty large you would probably just be able to use it normally while dodging the scary HTs. Also feedback won't be effective till there aren't a ball of SCV's to repair it unless it had like full energy or you had stalkers to move in and snipe it.
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the scv priority is the only thing which needs a fix
tester lost that game because he FE against a BC rush, and didn't apply pressure to see what the terran was doing. by the time his observer arrived and scouted the fusion core iirc it was far too late.
watched the replay a few days ago, i didn't really study it, but unless i'm mistaken tester had about 3 voidrays out and failed at micro and only target fired scv's when he had 1 left.
i know tester is a great player but after watching a bunch of his replay's he's really vulnerable to cheesey builds. he goes standard passive almost every game and gets punished.... that's what should happen.
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disallowing scvs to repair air units is a horrible and also illogical idea.
if you want to nerf them the disallow air units to ATTACK while being repaired. perhaps force the air units to land in order to be repaired.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:56 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 19:50 Plexa wrote:Basically involved making a lot of stalker/sentry and using FF to stop the SCVs from repairing the BCs. If the Terran was any good he would have retreated the BC, but he didn't. since you are probably a much better player than I am....have you tried feedback, if no why not if yes, how did it go? another question: can the yamato-cannon be used on friendly units/buildings and/or neutral units/buildings? because then obviously the terran could get rid of the energy before the battle Feedback is a lot less effective than you might think. With 550 HP, at the very best you're looking at killing 200 HP (i.e. taking it down to 350). Since the idea behind a BC rush is to attack asap once the BC is out, it's not going to have full mana and you're going to do around 100 damage with a feedback - not really worth the investment =/. Feedback is overrated against BCs unfortunately. Storm, despite its lower damage, is a lot more useful because it hits the scvs underneath the BC and kills them although most times you won't have storm before the BC comes knocking at your door.
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On September 06 2010 20:01 chrisSquire wrote:
disallowing scvs to repair air units is a horrible and also illogical idea.
if you want to nerf them the disallow air units to ATTACK while being repaired. perhaps force the air units to land in order to be repaired.
I agree it would be much too harsh to disallow it. T relies heavily on air in many games and the repair function is just a part of playing T.
The problem is the repair box on a BC/ thor. 12 SCVs repairing a BC is kinda silly, there should be a limit imo.
Also... august mentioned that SCVs repair units faster than buildings. T/F? too lazy/sleepy to login and test
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Since the idea behind a BC rush is to attack asap once the BC is out, it's not going to have full mana and you're going to do around 100 damage with a feedback - not really worth the investment =/.
true didn't thought about that the BC doesn't arrive with full energy.....storm definitely won't be ready unless you are going for a really fast tech, that's for sure; you're right, mass-force-fields to prevent any kind of scv-clustering beneath the BC really seem like your best bet
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Do you reckon you do need the void-rays in the mix to stop this? They do seem like the unit for the job but if you're also battling a fair-sized MMM force it seems a bit much to get if you're also packing obs and/or charge.. Or should the robo stay out of it and should P use a stargate for intel with the easyer swap to VR?
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On September 06 2010 19:45 Bensio wrote:
Its one of the advantages of terran, yes it can be annoying, but everything can be exaggerated imo.
No im not terran, zerg actually, but I think feedback can be made to look OP as well, 5 temps behind your army and 1/2 of the terran units are drained of all energy and either damaged or destroyed.
Just yesterday i was fighting 4 BCs with like 15-20 Stalkers and 7 HTs (pluss cannons but they were not all in reach). BCs had full energy as they arrived at my Expo.
The moment i used feedback the terran started to rain down mules and i had to warp in stalkers from 8 gates ++ two times to hold it off. I also stormed the mules (which is quite hard as one storm wont do it due to the wide BC model.
Its not undoable but as blizz also said, its quite hard to counter this.
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There are more reps of augustwerra doing the BC rush on the same site i think. Same strat in about 4 reps. Most of the time he barely manages to keep his BC alive and wins cuz of the mistakes and miss micro of his opponents. And to the guy with 20stalkers vs 4 bcs: Try focus fire+feedback+storm.
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AugustWeRRa absolutely demolished oGsLeader with this TWICE. He clearly wasn't prepared for it but it still happened the second time.
As a zerg player who has to deal with repairing SCVs on a Thor, this has always been an issue for me.
An alternative fix which I much prefer would be to change the attack priority on repairing scvs. At the moment they're basically invulnerable to everything but splash damage. As many people have pointed out, targetting scvs under a large thor or battlecruiser is tricky. They should at least have the same priority as other offensive units as soon as they start repairing.
A relevant point from another game:
![[image loading]](http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/217534009_hZ5oD-L-2.jpg)
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Wouldn't make any difference in that situation; you'd just kill the SCVs and die to everything else.
Only way to fix it is to nerf the effect of mass-repairing a unit.
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LOL.... its too bad oGsLeader didn't see this thread right before his game.
watching him lose to this live was awful, especially knowing it would be patched soon... such an unworthy loss.
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I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up.
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Removing repair possibility of air units is not the way to go. This would greatly harm Terran air since both the other races regenerate (even if it is slow) and Terran got no option to heal their air units.
As I see there are three possible solutions:
1) Only allow 1 SCV/MULE to repear the unit at once.
2) Change the attack priority to give the repairing units a high priority in the same way medivacs are high priority targets.
3) Units becomes unable to attack while being repaired.
My guess is that Blizzard goes for the second solution even if I rather would like to see something that made planetary fortresses less invulnerable.
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On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up.
I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again.
lol
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 21:24 threehundred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up. I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again. lol You have no idea how happy I would be to get scouts Protoss desperately need a really good anti-air option.
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eurgh if any1 hasn't seen it, there's a thread on "Battlecruiser Rushing (or how to be a boss) lol"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150082
I have to say, this repair business is what makes this so imba.
TO those who hasn't seen the rep, your pretty much rushing for it asap, all the while pumping marines + scv's (don't cost gas).
When the BC pops, you move out with your marine force and all your scv's minus 12 (6 on gas + 6 on minerals). That's ALL you need to support BC production and marines out of 2 Rax + repair + Supplies.
Proceed to roll over your opponent with 20-30 scv's + 15 - 25 Marines.
If they base trade, you bring the factory with you.
If not, you continuously add to your BC + rines number.
I'm a Diamond 850+ Zerg player, I've beaten a 1k+ diamond protoss player with it. And a slew of other Diamond players around my rank in ladder. I HAVE lost some games, but that's usually because I get out the BC's too late (1 whole minute late/rsupplyblocked/res management) or 4get to rally reinforcing BC's and it was still close (base trade).
I'd post some reps but alas it was at a LaN party and I was showing off my prowess by picking any race and owning them with it WITH a 'bad' strat. Thus disgustingly suprised by how strong it was.
Imo, Repair should not be auto-casted. Just takes away so much of the micro. I'm seeing a lot of T just bringing 5-6 scv's with their push now and turns on auto-repair. I have to target fire with roaches and focus firing with roaches is detrimental due to how big the overkill is (16base dmg/slow attack speed + short range).
Just a rant after losing to a fast thor drop + scv's
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On September 06 2010 21:27 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 21:24 threehundred wrote:On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up. I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again. lol You have no idea how happy I would be to get scouts Protoss desperately need a really good anti-air option.
Scouts were only used in 'the stove' , considered possibly the worse/least used units, and now a protoss(?) wants it back.
Any1 else finds this funny yet makes them sad at the same time?
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Well... no one was rushing BCs when scouts were around.
They did have that ungodly air attack.
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On September 06 2010 21:41 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 21:27 Plexa wrote:On September 06 2010 21:24 threehundred wrote:On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up. I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again. lol You have no idea how happy I would be to get scouts Protoss desperately need a really good anti-air option. Scouts were only used in 'the stove' , considered possibly the worse/least used units, and now a protoss(?) wants it back. Any1 else finds this funny yet makes them sad at the same time?
In BW, BCs were terrible aside from Yamato and Void Rays didn't exist.
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I think repair is just way too fast on battlecruisers- I had like 12 void rays charged up and just barely outdamaging 10-20 or so scvs on Scrap Station- it nearly lost me the game because I wasn't expecting scvs to be able to keep up with that many charged up void rays. All he did was stick to his base and repair his bcs when I attacked, until we base traded and I won because I had expanded everywhere.
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On September 06 2010 21:51 Voyager I wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 21:41 me_viet wrote:On September 06 2010 21:27 Plexa wrote:On September 06 2010 21:24 threehundred wrote:On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up. I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again. lol You have no idea how happy I would be to get scouts Protoss desperately need a really good anti-air option. Scouts were only used in 'the stove' , considered possibly the worse/least used units, and now a protoss(?) wants it back. Any1 else finds this funny yet makes them sad at the same time? In BW, BCs were terrible aside from Yamato and Void Rays didn't exist.
More like they were expensive and you didn't need them. They were really hard to kill in BW since they destroyed everything that countered them if you were willing to spend gobs of $$ and map control to do it.
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do some test's sentries with the sheild spell actally rather well, due to the dps beging how fast the BC fires and not the dmg done per shot
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 21:41 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 21:27 Plexa wrote:On September 06 2010 21:24 threehundred wrote:On September 06 2010 20:44 Voyager I wrote:
I really don't think the nerf from 10 to 8 damage would have broken August's build, given the size of the ground army he had backing it up. I agree, I think Augustwerra's army size and composition was pretty solid, the battlecruiser gave him a certain timing edge where the protoss can't really muster enough anti-air to hold off the bc while fighting head on with the terran army. if they need to nerf anything, nerf the repair and/or give the protoss like scouts again. lol You have no idea how happy I would be to get scouts Protoss desperately need a really good anti-air option. Scouts were only used in 'the stove' , considered possibly the worse/least used units, and now a protoss(?) wants it back. Any1 else finds this funny yet makes them sad at the same time? That doesn't change the fact that scouts in sc1 were arguably the best Air to Air unit in the game - 28 damage is nothing to scoff at!
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Anyone think about removing the SCV's autorepair? That means it'll take a lot more focus to keep the battlecruiser alive and one mistake means doom.
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Look at what HuK does to counter mass repair on bunkers, he just forcefields the scvs, maybe here you could trap the scvs/force them out (would require a few sentries i know), just a thought :>
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The real issue is that in a real battle, right clicking on all the scv's can be difficult, and when auto-repairing a thor, sometimes impossible, terran players love to say "just micro better, click all the scvs" but when theres a bulky thor standing infront of the scv, sometimes you cannot physically click on the repairing scv.
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Forcefield, GS, precharged rays (easy on defence just use your gateway or w/e), it shouldn't be hard to come up with a comprehensive answer. It's just new and people don't really know how to fight compositions with BCs cos no one makes them!
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what makes me kinda overall sad about this new T-strat is, that it's yet another build tailored to prevent longer macro-intensive games; I was just about to figure out the timings to get an early expansion right after an early immortal and this build obviously is an auto-win against robo + expo;
this means I will probably stick with my early void-ray-opening again...
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Calgary25981 Posts
reclosed. we dont allow balance ideas from non-game designers.
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EPT
