EPTNot conclusive, but I definitely feel that it's too early to call the mu imbalanced. I want to test way more things before I say that.
The PvT Problem - Page 2
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Not conclusive, but I definitely feel that it's too early to call the mu imbalanced. I want to test way more things before I say that. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
The ability to take zero damage and cut the hp or overall life of my army by 40% with one skill that doesnt require upgrades is a little bit crazy IMO. I want to point out that every race has unit compositions BIO ball, mech, banshee viking, ling muta,hydra roach, ling infestor ultra, but the protoss player has gateway units plus tech choice EMP plus PDD shuts down the dps of the stalkers and the skills of the sentry thats 2/3 of your army not to mention the loss in hp. HT and immortal dont make much of a comeback as emp takes away their effectivness 100% and as said before viking counter collosi really quickly and are extreamly cost effective I know the match up isnt as cut and dry as terran wins and every race has this massive uphill battle but I feel something needs to be done about this | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2010 07:52 morimacil wrote: [edit] Actually, nvm, its 40% less damage from marines, and 22% less from marauders, forgot to take base armor into account marines have 5.8 dps vs zealot sentry, 8.7 with stim. By using guardian shield, you bring it down to 5.2 (stimmed). Using guardian shield more than counters stim from marines. But while all terrans stim, it is rare to see a protoss player put up 4-5 guardian shields. This can't be pointed out enough. GS and armor upgrades are huge against bioballs. GS before stim makes zealots roflstomp bioballs (marines do 3 damage, scary), and as you say it keeps you level once they stim. Such an underused ability for some reason. It's pretty much an anti-terran spell, what with all their units being ranged. | ||
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dolpiff
France300 Posts
On August 22 2010 07:43 ibreakurface wrote: Toss winrate is 49% atm. Zerg is 40% source? F - There are several effective timing pushes (detailed in other's posts) where the terran has the tech he needs and toss does not have his, that are devastating if executed right. this is so true, im also a 600 diamond noobie and in PvT im always trying to survive past the 3 rax marauder push ( which 90% of openings i get since they do it to counter 4 gate), then when i manage to barely hold it off with FF i try to survive/expand/tech enough to survive the next wave with tanks... scan + wallin + free drops with heal is so too much of a package for a single race to get and emp is just icing on the cake, we do need an autospread for ground like muta have vs thors that would negate emp lol | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
-Mech armies are too immobile. Also, the protoss army of robo units + chargelots/blink stalkers actually can do pretty well in a head on battle with a mech army. -Voidrays are completely retarded in mid/late game since only vikings do well. -Protoss has instant reinforcement so they basically have defenders advantage.... everywhere. That makes taking oddball expos or hard to defend expos really easy. This also makes lategame super imbalanced because protoss can instantly remake an army IN THE BATTLEFIELD whereas terran has to wait a few minutes to rebuild. -Chargelot/immortal/HT just beats bio. In fact it does well vs mech too. -Proxy tech is retarded. There's so many options for protoss and each one requires an informed response. Often a proxy dt shrine or proxy robo can be devastating. The biggest issue for protoss is stimmed marauders. Fortunately, the 1 gate FE allows you to take on 3 rax openings and consequently get the 2 base you need for the chargelot/immo/ht combo without letting T get economically ahead. Give it time and I think T will stop winning games vs P. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
EMP vs storm. This is a toss whine which should had stopped a long time ago. When you go HT you will have to get a lot of zealots. When the terran goes ghosts he will have to get a lot of marines. Emp deals roughly 50% dmg to zealots while storm pretty much kills marines. Im sick of people comparing EMP vs Storm in a vacum. You have to look at the relative dmg The cost of a planetary fotress is an OC and 150/150. Feel free to invest the same amount in photon cannons or warp in some units. Scv's not taking priority is a whole other issue. I do not understand the issue with medivacs and vikings. So the starport gives us acces to both of them? Thats OP? You get phoenix and VRs. Thats even more OP... oh wait. I dont get it. And again one of the reasons medivacs are there is to give bio a chance lategame. "Toss can not effectively counter attack. Losing a big fight with a terran means he will roll right over you. However unless you win with very few losses, Terrans can effectively defend against your remaining forces.." Starting to think you are a troll. To sum it up. Your post is full of fail. | ||
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
Yeah I should have had my high templars spread out but seriously? Despite the fact that I had a larger army, tier 3, and had a stronger economy I lost the game. Frustrating. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
With high templars, you can also just run them into his army one at a time, dunno why more people dont do that. If he EMPs your templar, you are ahead, since it cost you less, and its faster to build them. If he doesnt EMP, you can storm, and cripple his army. And if you do get the storms off, then you win even if he does EMP your army after that. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2010 08:56 Torture wrote: Yeah I should have had my high templars spread out but seriously? Despite the fact that I had a larger army, tier 3, and had a stronger economy I lost the game. Unit positioning and control are probably more important than army and economy size, when templars are on the field. Control them badly and they're useless, control them well and they're deadly. You controlled yours badly and lost, that's how it goes. With high templars, you can also just run them into his army one at a time, dunno why more people dont do that. If he EMPs your templar, you are ahead, since it cost you less, and its faster to build them. Especially with the vision from obs...snipe one ghost with your templar and he's served his purpose. Survival is only a bonus. | ||
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Powster
United States650 Posts
The biggest problem to me in this match up are medivacs.. Healing + Able to drop stimmed marauders in your base.. its crazy. Watch a good terran player doing non stop attacks from front and back helion / marauder drops and stuff.. I had a game a while ago where I have no idea what I couldve done to win. Even with map hacks it wouldve been a close game especially if he was able to multi task a bit better.. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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MattDamon
United States59 Posts
If it is unbalanced then its something like one side has like a 1 or 2 % advantage. Just play the game its close to balanced, and if its not blizzard will most likely fix it. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
On August 22 2010 10:06 Dalavita wrote: Anyone care to comment on my question about using hallucinations to scout terran with, which is loads cheaper to get compared to robo+obs, and helps you get a twilight fortress/templar archives earlier. I do it all the time. Phoenix scouts are the shit. Nice that they're so freakin' fast compared to an observer too. If you see tech lab starports though you have to throw down a Robo Facility ASAP. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:56 MattDamon wrote: Why does everyone on this site argue the same stuff over and over. If it is unbalanced then its something like one side has like a 1 or 2 % advantage. Just play the game its close to balanced, and if its not blizzard will most likely fix it. Because the game is not balanced at all. ZvT is proof of this. Blizzard also looks like they have no intention of even touching the game balance or making maps that mirror BW maps (closed nats, no bdoors to main, etc). | ||
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On August 22 2010 07:07 Ascendant13 wrote: Hi. Long time reader, first time poster. I am a 600+ Diamond protoss player, hardly a pro but I've played probably 600 games counting beta. I greatly enjoyed MasterAsia's ZvT thread, highlighting some of the issues faced there. I'm going to try to do something similar to PvT, although I am in no way in his league. Would love it if a pro Toss could do so, but I'll just have to try and fill in. This matchup is NOT as bad a ZvT from what I can see, but it is very defintely skewed in the Terran's favor. 1 - Gateway Units Terran gateway units are generally dominant over Toss early. The zealot is extremely slow, and the stalker is destroyed by the cheaper marauder. This allows Terran to apply early pressure very easily. Conversely it is very hard to pressure the terran much, outside of a very very brief window when stalkers can harass marines before marauders with concussive shell come out. 2 - Stim This changes the dynamic again, for a small hp hit terran gateway units are suddenly doing 50% more damage. What is often worse I think is the speed, it allows them to kite even chargelots, and run out of psi storms. 3 - EMP I could write for days on this ability, lol. Suffice it to say that for the cost of a ghost academy, 150m 50gas, you can produce an emp machine with a lot of hp that also does decent dps. Ghost emp is a fairly hard counter to EVERY single toss unit, stripping on average 40% of their health. It also instantly cripples sentries and high templars. 4 - Medivacs/Vikings The starport gives terran access to these two units at once, including the option to put on a cheap reactor to double their production. The medivacs are brutally effective, while also giving the terran the option to make drops at no extra cost. The funny thing is terran players would still make medivacs EVEN IF THEY COULD NOT ACT AS TRANSPORTS. They are that effective. And vikings hard counter colossus, one of the two possible counters to the MMM ball. 5 - Planetary Fortress The only expansion in the game that can defend itself. When repaired, this thing can be a monster to take down. Particularly as the SCV targetting priority is screwy. You have to manually target the repairing SCVs or your zealots will circle for ages getting killed. And stalkers do poor damage to the fortress and take a ton. 6 - Tech Costs Terran's tech the cheapest and have full access to their full range of units cheaply. To sum up, the following are the results A - Protoss can not effectively fight with equal cost of gateway units to barracks units B - Our counters to this are much higher tech, Colossus and High Templar. However Terran has hard counters to our counters that are much lower tech and easier to get. I.E. Vikings and Ghosts C - Toss can not effectively counter attack. Losing a big fight with a terran means he will roll right over you. However unless you win with very few losses, Terrans can effectively defend against your remaining forces. D - Terrans are largely unscoutable, and have a variety of effective attacks, all of which require different counters. However they can scout you, and you can not prevent it. E - Terrans can control when they engage. They are extremely mobile, can outrun your force, and chase it down. F - There are several effective timing pushes (detailed in other's posts) where the terran has the tech he needs and toss does not have his, that are devastating if executed right. Comments are appreciated. I am not trying to make a whine thread, just pointing out that there is a very real imbalance in the current state of the game. Thank You First of all, I really dislike how you compare this to MasterAsia's thread, because they're not really very similar. His thread is not only stating what he believes to be the reasons that Terran has an advantage over Zerg, it provides comparisons to Brood War to back up most of what it says. All of his points except for 2, 8, and 9 are completely objective as comparisons to Brood War, and are provable through math or simple logic. In addition, 8 is mostly based on previous points, so it is mostly objective in the same manner. Your thread doesn't provide any calculations or comparisons that prove that any of these things are problems. Secondly, I'm convinced that most of these aren't problems. 1. I'd like a bit more specificity about what time frame you're talking about here. If you mean before T2 (which I assume you do because you talk about Concussive Shells and pressure, and Protoss T2 stops Marauder pressure very well). While Marauders with Concussive Shell ARE strong versus gateway units, Marauder pressure in itself isn't a large problem early game, because the Protoss can get out a Zealot and a Stalker by the earliest time the Terran gets their first Marauder to the Protoss's base without sacrificing economy, and the damage a Marauder that is brought out by sacrificing economy will do won't be greater than what the Terran sacrificed if the Protoss pulls Probes to defend. I can do the calculations if you want, but the basic idea behind this is that the Terran cannot both produce from his barracks and build a tech lab there at the same time, but the Protoss can construct a Zealot and a Cybernetics Core at the same time, so he can get out a Zealot in that time, but the Terran cannot get out Marines. In regards to Protoss applying pressure after Concussive Shells come out, it's true that they can't until T2, but this is not necessarily bad. The time when Protoss can't apply pressure with gateway units due to Marauders is not dissimilar to the time right before it where the Terran can't apply pressure with his Marines due to Stalker, which necessarily exists if the Terran builds any Marines before his Tech Lab. It is also similar to the time, directly before that, where the Protoss can apply pressure with his scouting probe, and the Terran is unable to return any pressure, both due to shield regeneration. These are all just timings, and I don't see that there is any imbalance there. If you are arguing that Protoss cannot continue to apply pressure after they enter Tier 2, I argue that this is false as well. Stargate-first openings and Immortal drops are both excellent ways to apply pressure here in this phase, and are still safe from most Terran builds. While Protoss players often don't use these builds and instead opt for more passive play, this doesn't mean that they aren't completely valid or strong options to use. 2. Stim is undoubtedly very strong as an upgrade for basic Terran units, however, Protoss gateway units both also have potent upgrades that allow them to become far more mobile and effective in combat. Chargelots get a permanent boost to speed that's very useful, allowing them to outrun unstimmed Marines and Marauders and keeping pace with stimmed ones in conjunction with Charge, and Charge makes them far stronger in combat by giving them better surrounds, making them take less damage as they approach, and making it easier for them to flank. Blink allows Stalkers to become insanely mobile, easily moreso than any other ground unit other than arguably the Speedling (who is faster, but cannot transverse cliffs), makes them into a great harass unit, and also can make them much stronger in combat by giving them the ability to get a perfect concave literally instantly, and to pull back to safety when their health gets low. Wow, only 2 in, and I've already created a small wall of text and am running late for dinner. I'll come back and edit the rest in later. | ||
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Stutte
Sweden13 Posts
(Side note: This was on a map without ramp, so i could not forcefield effectively. And I know I could have teched to DT's, but I went fast robo to scout and by then he already had a giant ball, so it was too late. Besides, if he attacks on his terms he can just scan to take them out since you can't afford to not send the majority of your dt's in.) And I also agree colossi are way too simple to counter. By they time they spot one, they can fall back for a few minutes and amass five-six vikings and that's pretty much all they need to do while you've teched for a very long time for something that is now useless. Since most bioball armies have multiple starports with reactors already you're pretty much screwed. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On August 22 2010 10:10 Torture wrote: I do it all the time. Phoenix scouts are the shit. Nice that they're so freakin' fast compared to an observer too. If you see tech lab starports though you have to throw down a Robo Facility ASAP. Or cannons at key spots assuming you have the forge. The phoenix scout might make him get vikings or spam marines if he doesn't figure out it's a hallucination. | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
Luciferon vs HasoObs had a few very nice examples of outright stupid stuff in my opinion. | ||
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