EPTAs a Zerg player, it has been increasingly hard to beat Terran, but I think this new tactic will help Z.
Link
I didn't see this posted anywhere. I just wanted to share the uberness of this ^_^.
User was warned for this post
ZvT Break through?
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
As a Zerg player, it has been increasingly hard to beat Terran, but I think this new tactic will help Z. Link I didn't see this posted anywhere. I just wanted to share the uberness of this ^_^. User was warned for this post | ||
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afg-warrior
Afghanistan328 Posts
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
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Bair
United States698 Posts
It is appreciated you are trying, but this is something that has been known since beta. Just today was the first time someone created a thread on TL about it XD | ||
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
TL oh how I <3 you. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
vs Thors : 4x 300/200 = 1200min/800gaz and yet... while using the magic box trick... you still lose 4 mutas I mean... if you want to do real test.. send 12 mutas vs 4 thors (or 8-9 thors vs 24 mutas)... and compair! mutas will get raped or get about even! Than in real games you'll get about 5-6 SCVs that will repair thors.... so if you want REAL IN-GAME test... send in some 5-6 SCV to repair the thors  Voila your tests.Another thing also. Why did you put all thors clumped up? it's pretty rare that when you get in a game that all thors will take damage from mutal bounce... it's all small things that invalidate your test. it's like saying.... Hey guys Marauders are totaly demolishing Ultralisks (whiles it's the opposite) I will put 1 ultralisk vs 20 marauders... and will say here is how you do it. Hit stim focus with the 20 marauders on 1 ultralisk BAM! See... I call that the magic stim use! Yep! Just wanted to help the terran community! | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
I mean sure, it helps to know that trick, but its still showing 2400 gas worth of mutas vs 800 gas of thors. 24 mutas against 12 thors would be a whole lot less in favor of the mutas, even though not stacking them up does help | ||
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:13 FullofNguyen wrote: you could also try to micro mutas? but that might induce splash dmg if a shot happens to go off close to other mutas. Like how? Thors have silly range so you're going to get shot no matter what you do. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
And about microing mutas: You mean taking a muta that is at 3 range of a thor, pulling it back to 11 range to be out of range of the thor, before the muta dies? Probably not worth it at all, you better stay there and dps rather than moving out while not dpsing, letting others take splash, and probably still having it die. Plus, the thors can actually focus fire the mutas, the mutas cant focus fire the thors without clumping up. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:11 Konsume wrote: Mutalisk : 24x 100/100 = 2400minerals/2400gaz vs Thors : 4x 300/200 = 1200min/800gaz and yet... while using the magic box trick... you still lose 4 mutas I mean... if you want to do real test.. send 12 mutas vs 4 thors (or 8-9 thors vs 24 mutas)... and compair! mutas will get raped or get about even! Than in real games you'll get about 5-6 SCVs that will repair thors.... so if you want REAL IN-GAME test... send in some 5-6 SCV to repair the thors Voila your tests.Another thing also. Why did you put all thors clumped up? it's pretty rare that when you get in a game that all thors will take damage from mutal bounce... it's all small things that invalidate your test. it's like saying.... Hey guys Marauders are totaly demolishing Ultralisks (whiles it's the opposite) I will put 1 ultralisk vs 20 marauders... and will say here is how you do it. Hit stim focus with the 20 marauders on 1 ultralisk BAM! See... I call that the magic stim use! Yep! Just wanted to help the terran community! Well it's 21 marauders fyi. And why stim if you are going to one hit? :D In the video he didn't move his injured muta at all. Thors didn't focus fire I still say check's clockwise micro is the best option, he didn't lose any mutas. Why are people thinking about using mutas against thors again? | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
Didn't clumped the thors (they have 41924miles range and in-game they are rarely clumped) 4xThors vs 12xmutalisks = 2-3 thors alive 1200/800 vs 1200/1200 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8751/screenshot2010082100354.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8062/screenshot2010082100362.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9213/screenshot2010082100365.jpg) 8xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 5-6 thors alive 2400/1600 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3005/screenshot2010082100395.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7696/screenshot2010082100402.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9075/screenshot2010082100405.jpg) 9xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 7thors alive 2700/1800 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/5661/screenshot2010082100450.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5661/screenshot2010082100450.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3306/screenshot2010082100454.jpg) 1x thors vs 3 mutalisks = 1thors with +50%hp 300/200 vs 300/300 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9071/screenshot2010082100582.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9071/screenshot2010082100582.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9029/screenshot2010082100585.jpg) add in SCVs to the calcules and... i'm pretty sure there is less dead thors Yep! So basicaly... a ground unit that pretty much rapes every ground unit zerg has at the exception of Ultralisk will also own equal air forces. [sarcasm]Seems balanced to me![/sarcasm] Basicaly thors were fine in beta prior the "splash damage buff". Now they are just ridiculous | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:11 Konsume wrote: Mutalisk : 24x 100/100 = 2400minerals/2400gaz vs Thors : 4x 300/200 = 1200min/800gaz and yet... while using the magic box trick... you still lose 4 mutas I mean... if you want to do real test.. send 12 mutas vs 4 thors (or 8-9 thors vs 24 mutas)... and compair! mutas will get raped or get about even! Than in real games you'll get about 5-6 SCVs that will repair thors.... so if you want REAL IN-GAME test... send in some 5-6 SCV to repair the thors Voila your tests.Another thing also. Why did you put all thors clumped up? it's pretty rare that when you get in a game that all thors will take damage from mutal bounce... it's all small things that invalidate your test. it's like saying.... Hey guys Marauders are totaly demolishing Ultralisks (whiles it's the opposite) I will put 1 ultralisk vs 20 marauders... and will say here is how you do it. Hit stim focus with the 20 marauders on 1 ultralisk BAM! See... I call that the magic stim use! Yep! Just wanted to help the terran community! His example may be bad, but in the unit tester If you make 3 Thors and 18 SCVs, then create a muta army of equal value you very easily win. Thor and Muta damage have not changed since I did this in the tester during late beta. Use move to fly overhead, press stop and wait till they are all stopped, attack Thors 1 at a time. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:32 DeCoup wrote: His example may be bad, but in the unit tester If you make 3 Thors and 18 SCVs, then create a muta army of equal value you very easily win. Thor and Muta damage have not changed since I did this in the tester during late beta. Use move to fly overhead, press stop and wait till they are all stopped, attack Thors 1 at a time. well you must redo it... cause I just did it 20sec ago... and mutalisk fail vs equal value | ||
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EppE
United States221 Posts
HERE | ||
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FullofNguyen
8 Posts
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mardi
United States1164 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
Gas needed to set up mass muta production: -100 for ling speed -100 for lair. -200 for spire total: 300. Gas needed just to set up a push using thors as anti air and hellions as anti zergling: -200 for 2 factories. -50 for 2 tech labs -100 for armory -150 for addictional factory with reactor for hellion production -150 for preigniter total: 650? keep in mind that the zerg player may be on 2 bases. It seems to me the zerg player will be able to overwhelm a strickly mech player. If zerg's use this trick, terrans will no longer be able to rely on thors for anti air and will have to invest in barracks and marines. | ||
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lfusion
United States79 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:52 Konsume wrote: ok so I updated my test post... with some screenshots... for proofs It loos like you had the mutas fly into the middle one so all the thors could fire extra shots instead of attacking the top one first. Also, the mutas werent focusing down the thors which made them do less damage overall. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:58 TheFinalWord wrote: Gas needed to set up mass muta production: -100 for ling speed -100 for lair. -200 for spire total: 300. Gas needed just to set up a push using thors as anti air and hellions as anti zergling: -200 for 2 factories. -50 for 2 tech labs -100 for armory -150 for addictional factory with reactor for hellion production -150 for preigniter total: 650? Great maths my friend.... - 100 for lings - 100 for lair - 200 for spire = 300 ??? (answers: 400) Than why 2 factories?? i'm sorry but it's overkill. Zerg won't have time to out produce you. I'm sorry but it's the truth. Also 150 for preigniter... what type of terran are you? you'll get thors WAYYYY before you get the preigniter. so.. - 100 for 1 factory - 50 for one techlab (honestly yuo'll take the one from your barack from early reaper harass) but ok... w-e - 100 armory = 250 (200 if we remove your techlab) EVEN if we add your additional factory and your preigniter (I'm not giving you your 3rd factory.. it's overkill at this stage) it will add (250) giving you a total of 500 gaz... only 100 gaz difference... OWHHHHH!H!!! Also I want to point out that when a zerg goes mutalisk he gets 0 gaz for other things such as upgrade or roaches.... needless to say that all EXTRA minerals will go into drones or lings. If I'm right hellions = minerals only and each hellion will own his share of zerglins... amiright? | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:59 lfusion wrote: It loos like you had the mutas fly into the middle one so all the thors could fire extra shots instead of attacking the top one first. Also, the mutas werent focusing down the thors which made them do less damage overall. do your own test and prove me wrong. I tried all the ways and 3 test came out to best to send and just "S" not focus one. Prove me wrong and we can test again. It's easy to comment without proofs... I did mine! | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
It would slow down the timing of my push so much that if I am against a good zerg they will have prolly 5 base while I am on two and if they macro well and over saturate there hatcheries with larva I will lose to ground easily. I could even have 3 base and odds are they will roll me over with ground if I go over 6 thors. Thors are also super slow and if the zerg player harasses with with 24 mutas and I have 10 thors I won't be able to leave my base without going all-in with it. Not that I have a problem with zerg because most zerg players are not very good except for the very high level players. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
Mutas still aren't good against thors, but at least the splash damage on the thor AA really doesn't come into play. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
My examples were just to point out the flaws in the OP's video. Now... if you think that your tanks are gaz heavy... I can tell that you have never played zerg. Zerg is imo the most gaz starving race... and we could expand alot about it but it is not the right thread for it. I just wanted to point out that minerals for minerals and gaz for gaz... thors are always the winner in EVERY POSSIBLE way (aka they will OWN ground and they will OWN air and my test didn't include any SCVs!!!) | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
It's still very hard to break a turtle, but it makes drops on LT especially quite a bit easier to deal with. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
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Alphaes
United States651 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:31 Konsume wrote: Ok... I just went into the "Unit_tester" map.... Didn't clumped the thors (they have 41924miles range and in-game they are rarely clumped) 4xThors vs 12xmutalisks = 2-3 thors alive 1200/800 vs 1200/1200 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: 8xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 5-6 thors alive 2400/1600 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: 9xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 7thors alive 2700/1800 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: 1x thors vs 3 mutalisks = 1thors with +50%hp 300/200 vs 300/300 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: add in SCVs to the calcules and... i'm pretty sure there is less dead thors Yep! So basicaly... a ground unit that pretty much rapes every ground unit zerg has at the exception of Ultralisk will also own equal air forces. [sarcasm]Seems balanced to me![/sarcasm] Basicaly thors were fine in beta prior the "splash damage buff". Now they are just ridiculous | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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dthree
Australia150 Posts
p.s. i know it may not be 100% relevant but when you go muta there is also an indirect cost in regards to the amount of turrets they will probably get. | ||
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PsyStarcraft
United States30 Posts
I'm not sure how the whole cost effectiveness war came about, because I state clearly in the video description that the scenario I present in the video isn't representative in real games, it's merely the tactic that I'm trying to shine light on. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On August 21 2010 15:38 dthree wrote: I don't understand why other zergs are complaining, mutalisks aren't meant to beat thors and if you don't have more minerals/gas than the terran player than it doesn't really matter what units they get im sorry you will lose, personally i think this helps quite a lot as terrans seem to underestimate amount of thors they need and if they go pure mech and you kill all the thors then the rest of the army belongs to you. p.s. i know it may not be 100% relevant but when you go muta there is also an indirect cost in regards to the amount of turrets they will probably get. Zergs definitely shouldn't be complaining about thors still being strong against mutas. This is just a very helpful trick making thors much less effective, especially in smaller numbers like dropping thors on the ridge on LT. And if spreading thors out makes them much more effective then that is fine. At least the terran has to think a bit more about what they are doing like the zerg has to. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:01 Bair wrote: It is Psy's video about magic boxes in SC2 concerning mutalisks vs thors. It is appreciated you are trying, but this is something that has been known since beta. Just today was the first time someone created a thread on TL about it XD actually no, there were threads about this, well not specificly, but threads about mutalisk where this was discussed. But strangely, if someone goes ahead and says, Hey sckers, check this out, it's the solution and it's new, everyone is going crazy. Those who tried to improve on ZvT already found out this either by themselfs or from a number of posts here and elsewhere. Others i guessed were buzy with only whining and now treat this as some sort of salvation, which is not btw, competet terrans totally destroy this playstyle, however it's very good against trash terrans, which flooded Diamond leauge too lately... | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
I smell fail. Also, this isn't anything new. | ||
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PsyStarcraft
United States30 Posts
So you just made a thread on TL, about a video that was about a concept originally brought up on TL. I smell fail. Also, this isn't anything new. The response from users on YouTube, Reddit, and TL was positive enough to make the post worthwhile. You don't really have to shock and awe 100% of the audience to have a good performance. | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On August 21 2010 16:12 PsyStarcraft wrote: The response from users on YouTube, Reddit, and TL was positive enough to make the post worthwhile. You don't really have to shock and awe 100% of the audience to have a good performance. Well including this topic there is 3 topics on this. Its not rly about the content. The content is very good and its a awsome vid  | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
thors on the other hand are are very slow building and very slow units and a terran will usually only have 1 factory producing thors(cant push a zerg expo and defend your main at the same time) if you wanna add scvs in to the equation then add in zerglings for the same amount of resources and see what happens | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:11 Konsume wrote: Mutalisk : 24x 100/100 = 2400minerals/2400gaz vs Thors : 4x 300/200 = 1200min/800gaz and yet... while using the magic box trick... you still lose 4 mutas I mean... if you want to do real test.. send 12 mutas vs 4 thors (or 8-9 thors vs 24 mutas)... and compair! mutas will get raped or get about even! Than in real games you'll get about 5-6 SCVs that will repair thors.... so if you want REAL IN-GAME test... send in some 5-6 SCV to repair the thors Voila your tests.Another thing also. Why did you put all thors clumped up? it's pretty rare that when you get in a game that all thors will take damage from mutal bounce... it's all small things that invalidate your test. it's like saying.... Hey guys Marauders are totaly demolishing Ultralisks (whiles it's the opposite) I will put 1 ultralisk vs 20 marauders... and will say here is how you do it. Hit stim focus with the 20 marauders on 1 ultralisk BAM! See... I call that the magic stim use! Yep! Just wanted to help the terran community! I think the video kind of went over your head. No one claimed that mutas are a good unit to use against thors. The idea is that, when it comes down to a battle, if you need to use mutas against thors, you'll be a lot more successful using this technique. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
Also, when you make a thread the OP should have some content, not just 2 lines and a link. | ||
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