EPTZvT Break through? - Page 2
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mardi
United States1164 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
Gas needed to set up mass muta production: -100 for ling speed -100 for lair. -200 for spire total: 300. Gas needed just to set up a push using thors as anti air and hellions as anti zergling: -200 for 2 factories. -50 for 2 tech labs -100 for armory -150 for addictional factory with reactor for hellion production -150 for preigniter total: 650? keep in mind that the zerg player may be on 2 bases. It seems to me the zerg player will be able to overwhelm a strickly mech player. If zerg's use this trick, terrans will no longer be able to rely on thors for anti air and will have to invest in barracks and marines. | ||
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lfusion
United States79 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:52 Konsume wrote: ok so I updated my test post... with some screenshots... for proofs It loos like you had the mutas fly into the middle one so all the thors could fire extra shots instead of attacking the top one first. Also, the mutas werent focusing down the thors which made them do less damage overall. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:58 TheFinalWord wrote: Gas needed to set up mass muta production: -100 for ling speed -100 for lair. -200 for spire total: 300. Gas needed just to set up a push using thors as anti air and hellions as anti zergling: -200 for 2 factories. -50 for 2 tech labs -100 for armory -150 for addictional factory with reactor for hellion production -150 for preigniter total: 650? Great maths my friend.... - 100 for lings - 100 for lair - 200 for spire = 300 ??? (answers: 400) Than why 2 factories?? i'm sorry but it's overkill. Zerg won't have time to out produce you. I'm sorry but it's the truth. Also 150 for preigniter... what type of terran are you? you'll get thors WAYYYY before you get the preigniter. so.. - 100 for 1 factory - 50 for one techlab (honestly yuo'll take the one from your barack from early reaper harass) but ok... w-e - 100 armory = 250 (200 if we remove your techlab) EVEN if we add your additional factory and your preigniter (I'm not giving you your 3rd factory.. it's overkill at this stage) it will add (250) giving you a total of 500 gaz... only 100 gaz difference... OWHHHHH!H!!! Also I want to point out that when a zerg goes mutalisk he gets 0 gaz for other things such as upgrade or roaches.... needless to say that all EXTRA minerals will go into drones or lings. If I'm right hellions = minerals only and each hellion will own his share of zerglins... amiright? | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:59 lfusion wrote: It loos like you had the mutas fly into the middle one so all the thors could fire extra shots instead of attacking the top one first. Also, the mutas werent focusing down the thors which made them do less damage overall. do your own test and prove me wrong. I tried all the ways and 3 test came out to best to send and just "S" not focus one. Prove me wrong and we can test again. It's easy to comment without proofs... I did mine! | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
It would slow down the timing of my push so much that if I am against a good zerg they will have prolly 5 base while I am on two and if they macro well and over saturate there hatcheries with larva I will lose to ground easily. I could even have 3 base and odds are they will roll me over with ground if I go over 6 thors. Thors are also super slow and if the zerg player harasses with with 24 mutas and I have 10 thors I won't be able to leave my base without going all-in with it. Not that I have a problem with zerg because most zerg players are not very good except for the very high level players. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
Mutas still aren't good against thors, but at least the splash damage on the thor AA really doesn't come into play. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
My examples were just to point out the flaws in the OP's video. Now... if you think that your tanks are gaz heavy... I can tell that you have never played zerg. Zerg is imo the most gaz starving race... and we could expand alot about it but it is not the right thread for it. I just wanted to point out that minerals for minerals and gaz for gaz... thors are always the winner in EVERY POSSIBLE way (aka they will OWN ground and they will OWN air and my test didn't include any SCVs!!!) | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
It's still very hard to break a turtle, but it makes drops on LT especially quite a bit easier to deal with. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
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Alphaes
United States651 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:31 Konsume wrote: Ok... I just went into the "Unit_tester" map.... Didn't clumped the thors (they have 41924miles range and in-game they are rarely clumped) 4xThors vs 12xmutalisks = 2-3 thors alive 1200/800 vs 1200/1200 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8751/screenshot2010082100354.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8062/screenshot2010082100362.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9213/screenshot2010082100365.jpg) 8xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 5-6 thors alive 2400/1600 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3005/screenshot2010082100395.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7696/screenshot2010082100402.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9075/screenshot2010082100405.jpg) 9xThors vs 24xmutalisk = 7thors alive 2700/1800 vs 2400/2400 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/5661/screenshot2010082100450.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5661/screenshot2010082100450.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3306/screenshot2010082100454.jpg) 1x thors vs 3 mutalisks = 1thors with +50%hp 300/200 vs 300/300 + Show Spoiler + Best test so far in the favor of Mutalisks: ![[image loading]](http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9071/screenshot2010082100582.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9071/screenshot2010082100582.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9029/screenshot2010082100585.jpg) add in SCVs to the calcules and... i'm pretty sure there is less dead thors  Yep! So basicaly... a ground unit that pretty much rapes every ground unit zerg has at the exception of Ultralisk will also own equal air forces. [sarcasm]Seems balanced to me![/sarcasm] Basicaly thors were fine in beta prior the "splash damage buff". Now they are just ridiculous | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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dthree
Australia150 Posts
p.s. i know it may not be 100% relevant but when you go muta there is also an indirect cost in regards to the amount of turrets they will probably get. | ||
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PsyStarcraft
United States30 Posts
I'm not sure how the whole cost effectiveness war came about, because I state clearly in the video description that the scenario I present in the video isn't representative in real games, it's merely the tactic that I'm trying to shine light on. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On August 21 2010 15:38 dthree wrote: I don't understand why other zergs are complaining, mutalisks aren't meant to beat thors and if you don't have more minerals/gas than the terran player than it doesn't really matter what units they get im sorry you will lose, personally i think this helps quite a lot as terrans seem to underestimate amount of thors they need and if they go pure mech and you kill all the thors then the rest of the army belongs to you. p.s. i know it may not be 100% relevant but when you go muta there is also an indirect cost in regards to the amount of turrets they will probably get. Zergs definitely shouldn't be complaining about thors still being strong against mutas. This is just a very helpful trick making thors much less effective, especially in smaller numbers like dropping thors on the ridge on LT. And if spreading thors out makes them much more effective then that is fine. At least the terran has to think a bit more about what they are doing like the zerg has to. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On August 21 2010 13:01 Bair wrote: It is Psy's video about magic boxes in SC2 concerning mutalisks vs thors. It is appreciated you are trying, but this is something that has been known since beta. Just today was the first time someone created a thread on TL about it XD actually no, there were threads about this, well not specificly, but threads about mutalisk where this was discussed. But strangely, if someone goes ahead and says, Hey sckers, check this out, it's the solution and it's new, everyone is going crazy. Those who tried to improve on ZvT already found out this either by themselfs or from a number of posts here and elsewhere. Others i guessed were buzy with only whining and now treat this as some sort of salvation, which is not btw, competet terrans totally destroy this playstyle, however it's very good against trash terrans, which flooded Diamond leauge too lately... | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
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