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MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
One thing I disagree with is the asumption of zerg beeing OP on this map due to mobility in zvt. With dropships, terran gain great mobility and ability to harass where the zerg army is not present. In general, I would like to see larger maps with longer rush distances, for zerg its a bit too hard too fend of an early protoss rush where the rush distance is short since it gives you no to time to respond and make the right adjustments. (mabye it wouldnt matter since all protoss cheese anywas :p). | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On June 20 2010 01:39 comis wrote: You're right ZvT is exactly like PvT in BW, wait except the fact that map control has absolutely no importance in a game where NOTHING a Z makes can beat a 200/200 T mech army. The only way to beat mech is to cripple/kill him early with a fast muta/ling/baneling build. Show me 1 example where this is not the case (and don't give me some stupid replay where Z when burrowed roaches into an afk T or something, that's not an actual counter, just cheese that works on bad T's). maybe u didnt play bw but 200 psi mech owned toss too lol. thats why u gotta overpower terran before he gets too strong. sc1 is basically revolved around recalls and frontal attacks while terran just has to hold on because he wins if he splits the map (talking about 2 player maps). thats where carriers come in and zerg has no carrier most common way i can think of is to take about 3-4 base as zerg get mapcontrol then make a huge fucking army and try break terran down with nyduses drops and frontal attacks. just like sc1 on destination tvz or tvp on 2 player maps without carrier. ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On June 20 2010 01:51 MorroW wrote: ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself Uggh, mark of a douchebag. People either know you or they don't, MorroW. No need for petty ad hominem. | ||
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Heat_023
Canada160 Posts
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
The maps themselves are too small. Of the top of my head, Steppes of War, LT, Kulas, DO, favor agressive early games (yes DO is included in this, how many times have people tried to cheese you on that map?). That idea in itself favors the terran race because of their ability to wall-off while obtaining powerful harass units (i can sit in my base and tech and harass you at the same time lol). In all honesty, Artosis has a point in bringing this up because although many people claim the game is closely balanced right now (which i would tend to agree with) map balance coupled with certain racial imbalances (namely terran's ability to do whatever the fuck they want; wall off, harass, open all tech trees, turtle and sit in their 2-base without pushing to get 200/200 mech.) really compound each other and make this game a rather one sided affair for one race over another. Hopefully with the advent of private tournaments we will be able to create our own maps that can reduce these types of discrepencies. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 20 2010 02:37 Heat_023 wrote: Holy cow people (general tendency) are arguing in such an ugly manner in this thread. I don't know much about this community (so I don't know if it's always that disgusting) but this is very bad advertising, that's for sure. Please don't think this is how i normally is. This is normally a good and mostly mannered community but with no SC2 for a couple weeks everyone is irritated. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
as for desert oasis, why have terran players never tried to wall off the smaller entrance as a response to mass ling?? its not like your army is moving out for years to come. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
On June 20 2010 01:51 MorroW wrote: maybe u didnt play bw but 200 psi mech owned toss too lol. thats why u gotta overpower terran before he gets too strong. sc1 is basically revolved around recalls and frontal attacks while terran just has to hold on because he wins if he splits the map (talking about 2 player maps). thats where carriers come in and zerg has no carrier most common way i can think of is to take about 3-4 base as zerg get mapcontrol then make a huge fucking army and try break terran down with nyduses drops and frontal attacks. just like sc1 on destination tvz or tvp on 2 player maps without carrier. ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself Protoss could beat 200 supply T mech. It was just hard. Not next to impossible like ZvT mech. You say the way to beat T in ZvT is to "overpower terran before he gets too strong". That's exactly what I'm saying. The only way to beat T mech is to cripple/kill him early with a muta-focused build (you can try all ground if you want to lose). You can throw in cheesy nydus or whatever else you want but if you let T get to 200/200 your chances of winning drop through the floor. We're saying essentially the same thing, you're just doing it in broken english and littered with personal insults. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
sry for ot | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
At the moment SC2 is a very dynamic game and must be treated as such. If a map is skewed toward a certain type of play from the opposing player, you should analyze it and devise a strategy that exploits as many of your opponents weakness as possible while playing to your own strengths. Its a flawed way of thinking to go into every game on every map and play the same style, every map is a different arena with different tools at your disposal. You (Artosis) and Idra like to play defensive macro games and steam roll when the time is right, on a map like Lost Temple, thats great, probably the best way to play the map. However on Desert Oasis it seems much more effect to abuse a feature of the map, one you make note of several times: the distance between the main and natural. That can be your strength or weakness depending on how you play. Nydus worming (proper verbage? lol) is incredibly effective on this map because of the distance between the main and natural, by pressuring with the constant threat of Nydus worms your safe to do a lot of whatever. Its not "cheesy" or "gimmicky" to use the map to your advantage, the idea of playing "straight up" all the time every game, regardless of the map seems a little absurd to be honest. All that being said, thanks for all you do Artosis! | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
Also with Desert Oasis, I have to disagree on the point of defending three bases. It's hard for EVERY race to defend their third base on that map. Usually I just cannon up the island and take that as my third, as going to the gold or the third regular mineral patch on the opposite side of the main usually means you're leaving one of your bases vulnerable. Also for ZvP on DO, I think the fact that Protoss always does the warp gate rush all in tells a lot about balance. DO is a map that Zerg can do well on if they get the chance to macro. Protoss has to get ahead of the zerg or downright kill the zerg before a certain point or it just becomes an uphill battle with an increasingly large hill. Good read, but I think you need to vary up your tactics depending on the map.  | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Whatever happened to BW where that shit would not fly? For example I was a P player and I KNEW that I could not do a macro war on Bluestorm. I also knew that Medusa and Colo it paid to be uber aggressive with 10/15 Goon Rush. I think most of these players are not playing for the map and playing for the MU | ||
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kryto
United States53 Posts
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bongjwa
United States199 Posts
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raph
United States204 Posts
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
This whole thread is goddamn retarded. Artosis dismisses everyone who disagrees with him and as soon as someone agrees with him, he says "finally, a well thought out post!" Utterly transparent. He's convinced himself that he must be right and nothing will change his mind. He's best ignored. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
I think most of these players are not playing for the map and playing for the MU why should they bend their play to the map? you can notice from several turnaments that idra forces his strategy to work via overlord drops and flanking rather than abandone his entire gameplan, its nothing new. Also with Desert Oasis, I have to disagree on the point of defending three bases. It's hard for EVERY race to defend their third base on that map. Usually I just cannon up the island and take that as my third, as going to the gold or the third regular mineral patch on the opposite side of the main usually means you're leaving one of your bases vulnerable. where is the incentive to take a third against one base / two base zerg? its not like they are going to go sens one base muta and suddenly take 2 bases. | ||
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