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Artosis, you don't really reply to any of the posters here except for telling them to read your article, like it was the be-all and end-all truth. Some people disagree with your points. Saying your points automatically answer their opinions, because what, you're Artosis and idra, is pretty condescending man.
You say you hate Kulas because its just difficult to play on? Its difficult, but not impossible. I enjoy the challenge myself, its a great map to play on.
thor drop
What exactly were you doing as a zerg player whilst the terran was investing so much resources and time into getting that thor? What about all the other expansions on the map, is there a reason you can't take those?
choked map
Its cramped in Kulas, so initially you'd believe you'd just be running into a blood bath all the time. But all those buildings create different paths for you to run around and position separate forces around the map, instead of the same lame-ass mega blob most people use. The worst scenario is letting your enemy garner a massive force and control the absolute middle of the map. But again, why would you do/allow that?
helion rush
Position your initial spine crawlers better to protect your workers. That's all. You can't get everything easy by having a small single choke to spam spine crawlers.
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On June 20 2010 00:37 Numy wrote:
I notice the trend for these maps being unfavoured for zerg seems to be how easy or quick a 2nd/3rd base can be obtained. Has this maybe got a deeper problem in actual game dynamics or is it just because of zerg play style?
Yes that is how Zerg functions, unless going some cheesy strat. Consider that all zerg units spawn from hatcheries, and that's why being able to expand easily, as well as the actual location and defendability of those expansions is so important. Personally I've been more conscious of this recently when making maps, and make sure that at least the natural and second expansion is not too hard to defend.
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i think if they just made some of the ramps/chokes a little wider at some of the natural expos it would give zerg some more options early on, instead of having to be ahead of their opponents with regards to bases.
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To go off on an ever so slight tangent
Artosis/Idra, do you feel that these maps are difficult because of a difficulty in defending an expansion in addition to 1 base tier 1 zerg feeling too weak and expensive on these maps, difficulty in flanking units (for Kulas and Incineration), and fast air possiblities? From the article I glean the problem to be adequately defending an expansion while dealing with the many possibilities open to the enemy. I certainly feel this way too on these maps, though I use drones/speedlings more for scouting.
Whenever I play these maps as zerg, I just feel like I need more stuff to hold territory, forcing me to also take a lot of map control to feel safe, without which I find these maps much more difficult. I do not mean to critizise or demean your playing, just confused at good players not liking zerg on my zerg favorite maps(i hate DO as terran). Maybe I just like a challenge and swarming everywhere as zerg.
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On June 20 2010 00:45 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 00:41 STS17 wrote:
The OP seems to boil down to "waah I can't FE on all maps all the time" which is what a lot of the arguments were for these maps (I'm ignoring IZ because I think your "Incineration Zone - lol" comment summed it up perfectly) were that it is hard to defend the natural, when the entire point of those maps are difficult to defend naturals.
Now, I am not a zerg player so I'm going to ask, do you need to fast expand in order to win as Zerg or is it just easier? You need to, in general, expand faster and more often than your opponent as Zerg. Of course there are exceptions to this, but its a real rule for the race with great massing ability but weaker units.
I can see the problem with Kulas Ravine in this sense, your points on the hard to defend natural are very valid.
On Desert Oasis, however, I find it hard to gain an advantage against zerg as a terran player. It just feels like it's easier for them to spread out over the map and take expos while expanding creep while I have to be very careful when first securing my nat and then even more so when trying to capture a third.
Am I doing something wrong? I mean, I guess the same stuff applies in some way for the zerg expanding (hard to defend, that is) but as a terran I just feel to vulnerable in moving out with ground forces on a map like DO and feel very constricted.
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Just a quick question:
Regarding your rant on Kulas being long scouting, short rushing distance - why exactly is it that it is so bad for zerg to use a drone to scout? It's not like a protoss or a terran has a better scouting option that early in the game, so following your logic the map is imbalanced for a protoss because a zerg could 6,7,8-pool him or a terran could proxy reaper/marauder/bunkerrush him and for a terran the same applies. Whilst this isn't the only thing your argumentation relies on, I just couldn't help seeing it as a pretty big flaw.
I'm well aware that to keep up production with say a 4 gate protoss you need 2 hatcheries, but perhaps the second hatchery could be delayed more than the usual 16 hatch we saw as the trend without putting you too far behind in unit production? I'm not convinced that a 1 base zerg going for good map control before expanding is impossible, but then again - my zerg is at best gold, so I might miss something here.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:23 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 00:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:On June 19 2010 23:48 Artosis wrote:On June 19 2010 22:55 FrozenArbiter wrote:On June 19 2010 22:13 Artosis wrote:On June 19 2010 22:08 Hider wrote:
Every interview/article I read about Artosis, he always talk about how weak zerg is and how strong all other races are. Then he interviews Tester and make a new thread with the subject that he thinks terran is the strongest race. If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads.
While I do agree that zerg is the weakest race right now, I think that a person with such a respected name as Artosis should be a lot more objective, and not be too biased. And zerg definately has the advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map. "If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads." Thank you, Mr. 74 posts, for coming here and letting everyone know that I am biased and withholding interviews due to conflicting opinions with myself. "And zerg definately has teh advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map." ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe he has - I don't see how pure mech is even viable on desert oasis? There is NO WAY to safely take a 3rd without opening yourself up to counter attack, and the distances are HUGE. Seriously, explain what pure mech you are using on desert oasis to make it imbalanced... I don't get how viking builds are hard to defend on DO, I find them way weaker there than on Scrap Station. if even 1 person could read what was written, they would see that i did not take mech builds into consideration at all when writing this. lol@ the flamers who don't understand what's written. I KNOW you said that in the OP, but then you quoted someone saying "mech sucks on DO" and essentially said "lol you are wrong". It wasn't exactly clear what you were saying, especially as you mentioned viking builds and thor drops - both of which I would categorize as mech. Yeah there are some cheese possibilties on DO, but I don't think that is a long-term viable solution to playing a map. DO is a good map for zerg. On June 20 2010 00:04 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 20 2010 00:00 gillon wrote:
Bashing down on peoples postcount doesn't help your argument, seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911check the 6th one And i'm not talking about myself, a nameless poster with low postcounts should not talk to Artosis like they are on even terms, or as if his opinion is more valid than Artosis'. Postcounts are shown for a reason, not for statistics That's not the way that commandment is meant to work. It's basically saying that if you have been here for a while, you will have more leeway than if you are new. It's not a free-pass to treat people with low post counts like they are worthless ;p That's for sure, all im saying is that these posters should show some respect for Artosis' article, even if they do not agree. I do not mean to discredit every new poster around here. Btw concerning DO mech, i think the problem is that Zerg's expos are really harassable with hellions on this map especially. Larger maps are generally better for Zerg, but DO's distances between expos are actually working against Z. It is really really hard to spread creep on the entire map, you have to start spreading it in two directions to begin with, and the area to cover is really huge. When ZvT reaches lategame on this map the T will try to take a gold, and this is really hard to stop as zerg, and it's also hard to keep the other gold. So he's effectively is forced on 3 bases, easely harassable bases btw. Say the T has established a position on the left side of the map at the gold expo. From there he controls the center more or less and could attack the Zerg's third or the other gold, the distance is raughly the same, while the zerg troops have trouble manuvering behind their own large highground base. IDK if i could paint it realistically, i wish i could ifnd that Strelok vs Asian zerg VOD (BTW we met like twice on ladder, do you remember me? NP if not, you pwned me pretty badly)
Yeah I remember.
I don't think hellion harass is that great when zerg has map control - 1 ling per tower, mutas faster than hellions. When T takes 3rd, drop his main. Take expos both sides of map so he kills 1 then he can't threaten a 2nd.
Mech is immobile and Desert Oasis is HUGE.
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On June 20 2010 00:45 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 00:41 STS17 wrote:
The OP seems to boil down to "waah I can't FE on all maps all the time" which is what a lot of the arguments were for these maps (I'm ignoring IZ because I think your "Incineration Zone - lol" comment summed it up perfectly) were that it is hard to defend the natural, when the entire point of those maps are difficult to defend naturals.
Now, I am not a zerg player so I'm going to ask, do you need to fast expand in order to win as Zerg or is it just easier? You need to, in general, expand faster and more often than your opponent as Zerg. Of course there are exceptions to this, but its a real rule for the race with great massing ability but weaker units.
Yes I know Zerg is the "macro race" and generally speaking needs more bases then T or P to win but "expanding faster" does not mean "must always fast expand." Sometimes it might be better to stay on one base for a little while longer until you can establish a couple basic defenses.
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MOD EDIT: Don't break page layout.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:26 Artosis wrote:
FA;
Tank/Thor/Hellion is mech. This, I thought, was obvious.
if even 1 person could read what was written, they would see that i did not take mech builds into consideration at all when writing this. lol@ the flamers who don't understand what's written.
What?
For people still calling me biased, you didn't read the article very well. These are the 3 maps which IdrA and I feel are the very worst for Zerg. Future articles will have the maps which are the best for Zerg. These maps will outline what parts of the maps are good for Zerg.
If some idiot who clearly just signed up for the forum recently comes by and accuses me of hiding interviews because opinions of the people who I interviewed had different opinions from myself, what the fvck? Obviously that shit shouldnt be allowed.
Fine, that's great, but Desert Oasis is not bad for zerg. If you wanna call Steppes, LT, Incineration Zone, Kulas bad for zerg - be my guest. Desert? That's like the best zerg map in the pool as long as the game goes past early :[
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On June 20 2010 00:04 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 00:00 gillon wrote:
Bashing down on peoples postcount doesn't help your argument, seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911check the 6th one And i'm not talking about myself, a nameless poster with low postcounts should not talk to Artosis like they are on even terms, or as if his opinion is more valid than Artosis'. Postcounts are shown for a reason, not for statistics
On the flip-side, it's pretty arrogant to think that just because you have more posts than someone, it makes your opinion more valid, and that's assumed rather often nowadays here on TL.
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On June 20 2010 01:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Fine, that's great, but Desert Oasis is not bad for zerg. If you wanna call Steppes, LT, Incineration Zone, Kulas bad for zerg - be my guest. Desert? That's like the best zerg map in the pool as long as the game goes past early :[
I have to agree with FA here. DO was banned from the ITL due to the massive favoritism towards Zerg. If they survive about more than 5 mins it's very hard to lose. Not impossible but there is better maps to point fingers at than the most Zerg IMBA map in the pool.
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On June 20 2010 00:59 SeriousB wrote:
MOD EDIT: Don't break page layout.
But it didn't. At least for me anyway.
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On June 20 2010 01:02 SeriousB wrote:But it didn't. At least for me anyway.
It broke it for me too. And it was a more or less worthless first post so FA saved us.
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On June 20 2010 00:58 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 00:45 Artosis wrote:On June 20 2010 00:41 STS17 wrote:
The OP seems to boil down to "waah I can't FE on all maps all the time" which is what a lot of the arguments were for these maps (I'm ignoring IZ because I think your "Incineration Zone - lol" comment summed it up perfectly) were that it is hard to defend the natural, when the entire point of those maps are difficult to defend naturals.
Now, I am not a zerg player so I'm going to ask, do you need to fast expand in order to win as Zerg or is it just easier? You need to, in general, expand faster and more often than your opponent as Zerg. Of course there are exceptions to this, but its a real rule for the race with great massing ability but weaker units. Yes I know Zerg is the "macro race" and generally speaking needs more bases then T or P to win but "expanding faster" does not mean "must always fast expand." Sometimes it might be better to stay on one base for a little while longer until you can establish a couple basic defenses.
Or just more units. With Spawn Larvae, you can produce plenty of units off of one base to fight off any really early aggression, then you can expand.
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On June 20 2010 01:00 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Fine, that's great, but Desert Oasis is not bad for zerg. If you wanna call Steppes, LT, Incineration Zone, Kulas bad for zerg - be my guest. Desert? That's like the best zerg map in the pool as long as the game goes past early :[
I play Random, but if the map is Desert Oasis, I pick Zerg. Every time.
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Could use pics with this :3
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zerg got most mobility -> maps with long distances to opponent/expansions/choke points are good. also backstabbing opportunities and many directions to walk/choose from
zerg has largest armies -> open maps favor zerg because of the flanking
these are basically the only 2 things that it comes down to in tvz (maybe pvz too for that matter).
stepps: short distances, not many ways to walk, not very open. HUGE terran map
lost temple: medium distances, roads and flanking. should be pretty balanced but atm its t>z because the mu is imbalanced
desert oasis: super long distances to everywhere and large opportunity for backstabbing. should favor zerg really much
now artosis tell me if u agree with this because i just cant understand how an experienced player like u would say desert is a map u dont wanna be zerg at
am i missing something here but shouldnt harass stuff like thor drop just work now in beta because nobody has any good timings of bos or how to play the game. its like got ppl went fast drop in tvp in sc1 and said it was good until 2~years ago u saw wow this sux if toss is halfdecent
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On June 20 2010 00:49 Dystisis wrote:
Yes that is how Zerg functions, unless going some cheesy strat. Consider that all zerg units spawn from hatcheries, and that's why being able to expand easily, as well as the actual location and defendability of those expansions is so important. Personally I've been more conscious of this recently when making maps, and make sure that at least the natural and second expansion is not too hard to defend.
This dynamic is one thing I have been puzzling for awhile. I think I'm right in saying in SC1 Zerg expanded early because they needed the hatch for production so putting one at a close expansion is logical but they could just put it in the base. They were still able to not handicap themselves by doing this at the start. This is the basis of my next few thoughts so if this is wrong then ignore the rest.
In SC2 it seems that if Zerg doesn't expand first they have a very tough time of getting into a position they can win. What seems to be happening is that the early game is being almost completely removed in most cases. In the mid game in most cases the Zerg has to out base the other races (I believe this is correct). So what appears to be happening is the mid game is coming so fast that the zerg has to expand in early game to get his expansion by mid game. Thus the root cause is this dynamic of losing early game very fast. This I believe is because of the macro mechanics allowing the game to progress much faster than it normally can. Maybe if these mechanics were adjusted than the dynamic could change allowing for more innovation in maps?
Of course this is only a theory and could be completely wrong as I'm rather bad at sc2 
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Hopefully not breaking any layers now.
SC2 Map Balance Part 1 - The Worst of the Worst
I will be writing several baww articles on the balance of various things in SC2 and I decided that the first one would have to be map balance. This will be an very subjective look at the theory and practice of the balance of the current set of SC2 maps in the Zerg matchups. I cannot, at this time, discuss TvP balance for these maps, simply because I don't care about any of it.
A big thanks to IdrA, who helped a ton in the bawwwing of this article!
PLEASE NOTE #1: This article addresses only my play. Balance is impossible to properly address at any other levels because they don't matter anyway.
PLEASE NOTE #2: I will be ignoring Mech vs Zerg. Seriously, this shit is so imba I cry in my sleep as I get tormented with nightmares of Thors and Siege Tanks.
The Worst of the Worst
KULAS RAVINE – Baaw ;_;
Even more BAAAAAAWWWWWWW
Baaaaaw ;____:
Seriously, rivers are streaming down my face over this BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWW
BAAAW T_T
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You thought I was done? Fuck no I 'm not
Enter even more baaw.
Why should I bother pouring skill in this bitch?
Again, lots of baww.
ZvAnything - I really don't want to be creative in my strategies or anything.
Short rush distance, long scout distance-
Listen to my Baaw. My Baww is most important as I am in Korea.
Seriously, I prefer continuing on leeching IdrA's BOs than actually try anything.
Even more Baaw
Honestly, why would I create any form of strategy? Way better to just whine about it.
Serious shitload of Baw.
DESERT OASIS - I have hated this map since day one of the beta. It was the first map I couldn't cheese my way out. Serious problems there.
ZvP - I think I Baawed enough. Oh wait, here's more.
More Baw.
ZvT - I won't even bother explaining why I get rolled by Tanks and Thors. That would take some sort of effort. BAAAAAAAAAWW.
Distance from main base to natural-
Yeah I admit, that's BS and I agree with what Artosis said.
Read the rest of the BAWW here!
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EPT
