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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
the personal attacks have to stop. 99% of the arguments in here are addressed within the article. please read the whole thing, and try to think about it a bit before posting. making blanket statements based upon your games, without any real thought behind them, do not hold much weight compared to the joint opinions of IdrA and I. I'll read/listen to well thought out posts, but certainly not "lolol just make mutalisks!!!1". Thanks! | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:00 gillon wrote: Bashing down on peoples postcount doesn't help your argument, seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911 check the 6th one And i'm not talking about myself, a nameless poster with low postcounts should not talk to Artosis like they are on even terms, or as if his opinion is more valid than Artosis'. Postcounts are shown for a reason, not for statistics | ||
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Puosu
7034 Posts
While I have great respect for Artosis and Idra and their skills, this article really makes me want to follow MorroW's, reaction. The whole concept behind the article is completely irrelevant. This isn't Warcraft 3, Zerg units don't get a slight nerf on this map. Every unit costs the same and performs the same, and BOTH players are susceptible to the terrain. There is no such thing as map imbalance! ???? How do the units perform the same when the situation is: (low ground) unit1 | unit2 (high ground) (Thor vs. roaches for example) versus unit1 unit2 (both on same height, no "wall" between. same units.) And no, zerg units can't abuse height advantage in the same way as for example terran units. That's just a single simple example, get your head checked if you think there is no such thing as map balance. Not only are the units changed by the map but also build orders as some maps have very different distances that allow for different things to happen. Throughout the BW history map balance has been one of the biggest thing that has changed the styles of the players and race domination of the game. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 19 2010 23:48 Artosis wrote: if even 1 person could read what was written, they would see that i did not take mech builds into consideration at all when writing this. lol@ the flamers who don't understand what's written. I KNOW you said that in the OP, but then you quoted someone saying "mech sucks on DO" and essentially said "lol you are wrong". It wasn't exactly clear what you were saying, especially as you mentioned viking builds and thor drops - both of which I would categorize as mech. Yeah there are some cheese possibilties on DO, but I don't think that is a long-term viable solution to playing a map. DO is a good map for zerg. On June 20 2010 00:04 Geo.Rion wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911 check the 6th one And i'm not talking about myself, a nameless poster with low postcounts should not talk to Artosis like they are on even terms, or as if his opinion is more valid than Artosis'. Postcounts are shown for a reason, not for statistics That's not the way that commandment is meant to work. It's basically saying that if you have been here for a while, you will have more leeway than if you are new. It's not a free-pass to treat people with low post counts like they are worthless ;p | ||
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perbarian
Sweden42 Posts
On June 19 2010 23:17 ChewbroCColi wrote: I miss bw maps ._. If there is one thing Blizzard can't do, it's making great maps.. Where are all the epic maps like Andromeda and Outsider? And why oh why does almost every map have either rocks with only 2k hp going into the main OR an undefendable choke to the nat? Sigh... It's as if Blizzard only want to see cheese.. I'm guessing that they have so many maps with rock and that stuff just to test it out because it's beta. If I remember correctly Blizzard has adressed the problem that Lost Temple is the only map without a backdoor (to either the natural or the main) and that the map pool will be more diverse when the full game is released. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:04 Geo.Rion wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911 check the 6th one And i'm not talking about myself, a nameless poster with low postcounts should not talk to Artosis like they are on even terms, or as if his opinion is more valid than Artosis'. Postcounts are shown for a reason, not for statistics I realise that, I like Artosis; I think he's a funny guy and an awesome player. I'm just saying that, to me, his arguments come through as somewhat biased since every single map feature is turned into a disadvantage for zerg. My last post just states that no matter how 'veteran' you may or may not be, it does not make your arguments, per se, any better. I'm a Terran player, so I might just be as biased to the other way, but this is just how I'm reading it. Just my 2 cents, if you will. | ||
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uberdeluxe
Canada306 Posts
 ) and the map doesn't usually alter whether i win or lose, but its good people are adressing the issue, maybe blizz will read and modify the maps! :D | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:10 FrozenArbiter wrote: I KNOW you said that in the OP, but then you quoted someone saying "mech sucks on DO" and essentially said "lol you are wrong". It wasn't exactly clear what you were saying, especially as you mentioned viking builds and thor drops - both of which I would categorize as mech. Yeah there are some cheese possibilties on DO, but I don't think that is a long-term viable solution to playing a map. DO is a good map for zerg. That's not the way that commandment is meant to work. It's basically saying that if you have been here for a while, you will have more leeway than if you are new. It's not a free-pass to treat people with low post counts like they are worthless ;p That's for sure, all im saying is that these posters should show some respect for Artosis' article, even if they do not agree. I do not mean to discredit every new poster around here. Btw concerning DO mech, i think the problem is that Zerg's expos are really harassable with hellions on this map especially. Larger maps are generally better for Zerg, but DO's distances between expos are actually working against Z. It is really really hard to spread creep on the entire map, you have to start spreading it in two directions to begin with, and the area to cover is really huge. When ZvT reaches lategame on this map the T will try to take a gold, and this is really hard to stop as zerg, and it's also hard to keep the other gold. So he's effectively is forced on 3 bases, easely harassable bases btw. Say the T has established a position on the left side of the map at the gold expo. From there he controls the center more or less and could attack the Zerg's third or the other gold, the distance is raughly the same, while the zerg troops have trouble manuvering behind their own large highground base. IDK if i could paint it realistically, i wish i could ifnd that Strelok vs Asian zerg VOD (BTW we met like twice on ladder, do you remember me? NP if not, you pwned me pretty badly) | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Tank/Thor/Hellion is mech. This, I thought, was obvious. For people still calling me biased, you didn't read the article very well. These are the 3 maps which IdrA and I feel are the very worst for Zerg. Future articles will have the maps which are the best for Zerg. These maps will outline what parts of the maps are good for Zerg. If some idiot who clearly just signed up for the forum recently comes by and accuses me of hiding interviews because opinions of the people who I interviewed had different opinions from myself, what the fvck? Obviously that shit shouldnt be allowed. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:10 Puosu wrote: ???? How do the units perform the same when the situation is: (low ground) unit1 | unit2 (high ground) (Thor vs. roaches for example) versus unit1 unit2 (both on same height, no "wall" between. same units.) And no, zerg units can't abuse height advantage in the same way as for example terran units. That's just a single simple example, get your head checked if you think there is no such thing as map balance. Not only are the units changed by the map but also build orders as some maps have very different distances that allow for different things to happen. Throughout the BW history map balance has been one of the biggest thing that has changed the styles of the players and race domination of the game. Since the style of SC maps has always been symmetrical for both people, I don't believe in map balance. I don't believe the maps are the same, they play differently and different things are stronger than others. But every player knows the map at the beginning and it doesn't ever change. Hence, it is always balanced because both people can do the same things. If one person started in a base with a smaller choke, then you could talk about map imbalance. but the map is the same for everyone, and everyone can use it to their advantage. Some races might be able to take air faster (or range, or any other advantage you want to insert). That's not a map balance issue. It should factor in to your plan of what your opponent might do on a map suited to it. Part of the game is preparing and realizing everything that the enemy can do. Thanks for actually reading my post. If you had actually read it, you realize that I do talk about maps making certain things not as good. Yes zerg units are worse on low ground because of less ranged units. Yes units do fare slightly better on high ground with micro. Yes some units outrange others. The point is that with the map you already know this, it's not sprung on you in the middle of the match. The cliff doesn't move forward at will like a unit. I talked about changing build orders to suit the map and taking the map into account in every game. I make the point that the map only changes what styles are strong or weak. That was the entire point of my post. Thanks for completely ignoring the point, then trying to point out my point that map balance is the biggest thing that changed players styles. | ||
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Fefnir
United States50 Posts
Think outside the box man, asian server seems to have it down. I'd bet their more aggressive 1 base builds would wreck havoc on Desert Oasis. All the imbalances you speak about mostly just mimic each other in that you cant protect your natural as fast. Kulas Ravine is mostly imba due to your scouting/rushing idea, I'll give that, but I can't see thing something being imbalanced simply because your standard BO doesnt work as well. | ||
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-Desu-
Turkey173 Posts
The number of post count of the individuals below: TheLittleOne - 54 Tarson - 56 qxc - 98 HuK - 191 Mondragon - 0 Lucifron - 0 Gretorp - 343 DIMAGA - 4 ... and on.. And then read a thread about how worthless 200>posters are On June 19 2010 22:45 Geo.Rion wrote: just LOL on the posts bashing on Artosis coming from <200 posts users. and think about it. and that would be a lesson for us to work about avoiding generalizations... may be 200>posters can play starcraft good and know deep about it? who knows. | ||
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Ramsing
Canada233 Posts
Definitely don't disagree with you on Kulas's middle though because it is pretty damned cluttered. As a side-note, I don't think the profanity is making you come off very well. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:36 -Desu- wrote: and think about it. and that would be a lesson for us to work about avoiding generalizations... may be 200>posters can play starcraft good and know deep about it? who knows. check my further posts on this topic befor you post, please, they are right here | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
Now, I am not a zerg player so I'm going to ask, do you need to fast expand in order to win as Zerg or is it just easier? | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:37 Numy wrote: I notice the trend for these maps being unfavoured for zerg seems to be how easy or quick a 2nd/3rd base can be obtained. Has this maybe got a deeper problem in actual game dynamics or is it just because of zerg play style? thank you, finally a very well thought out post! :D There is definitely some truth in this being because of the Zerg play style. Zerg does require more bases than its opponent to win. The units are just not cost effective to fight with the same resources for very long. There's no solid answer to this though, the game is too dynamic. Different situations create different responses, etc. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 19 2010 20:27 Sunny Afternoon wrote: so uh.. this is just an article saying that zerg has a hard time on 3 maps? What about the other races? did imbalance working against them cease to exist? Of course not. Artosis plays Zerg, not Terran or Protoss. That aside, I think the talk about Kulas Ravine is true. While the cliffs do give Mutalisks a certain advantage, the fact that the map is SO cramped is terrible for Zerg armies. I completely disagree on DO however. Zerg are the most mobile race and so are the least affected by the long distances between the bases. Not only that, they don't need a choke to defend nearly as much, where the other two races do, so the open layout of expansions heavily favors Zerg (it's actually harmful against their army because, like you said, they need flanks). Also, as we all know, the insanely short air distance favors Mutalisks. And, of course, my comment about you is light-hearted jest. While it's true that you tend to show some bias, your comments do of course deserve to be taken seriously and thought about. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On June 20 2010 00:41 STS17 wrote: The OP seems to boil down to "waah I can't FE on all maps all the time" which is what a lot of the arguments were for these maps (I'm ignoring IZ because I think your "Incineration Zone - lol" comment summed it up perfectly) were that it is hard to defend the natural, when the entire point of those maps are difficult to defend naturals. Now, I am not a zerg player so I'm going to ask, do you need to fast expand in order to win as Zerg or is it just easier? You need to, in general, expand faster and more often than your opponent as Zerg. Of course there are exceptions to this, but its a real rule for the race with great massing ability but weaker units. | ||
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