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On June 19 2010 20:55 perbarian wrote:
I am a noob but can't the problem with two creep tumors be solved by using the second overlord to generate creep? Or do you need it to scout?
Overlords need Lair tech to generate creep.
As a protoss player, I tend to disagree about Kulas Ravine. I don't really like the map that much, but I feel like its almost even for ZvP, maybe just with some slight tweaking to make it completely balanced. While the natural makes it hard to defend for zerg, it also makes the protoss extremely vulnerable to zergling runbys for the same reason, although the ledge at the base is absolutely more exploitable for Protoss than for Zerg, which seems to be the only major issue ZvP from my point of view.
I barely played Incineration Zone before thumb downing it and forgetting about it so can't comment too much, but it seemed as a really poorly put together map and I didn't want to waste time on it since pretty much no one plays it.
Desert Oasis I agree with you about the warp gate all ins being so common, as are pure Void Ray rush all ins as well (although probably less common since the patch that nerfed them, not sure since I rarely used them before that anyway). However, if the Protoss doesn't resort to that, it flips the other way and the Zerg can safely macro up as the rush distance prevents Zealot harass from being too powerful and it's an uphill battle the whole game for Protoss, though not impossible.
I like your stuff Artosis, but the article does sound very much like Zerg whining, even though most of your thoughts are reasonably justified - more an issue of the writing style though.
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On June 19 2010 20:28 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
i laff at this cause imo desert oasis was the best map for zvt
u cant play mech turtle cause of all the open areas and huge distances to everywhere and u cant make good timing pushes cause of the long distances
i think its safe to say all the maps r insanely imbalanced, cmon here they r blizzard maps. do u really expect the first maps made to be good at all?
mech works just like mech in sc1, u kill tons of units compared to the unit cost, short distances and small areas favors mech play, destination, stepps of war
u cant play bio in tvz, so ur basically just talking about bio mech which is too little to talk about balance for imo Bit rich for a Terran player to comment on balance. Terran are so utterly overpowered and broken at the moment that its pretty ridiculous for you not to be winning every single MU on every single Map.
Please, give me a break. So much tears and for no good reason. Troll somewhere else.
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On June 19 2010 20:45 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 20:40 Brokengamer wrote:On June 19 2010 20:27 Percutio wrote:
Yeah... it seems like mech on Desert Oasis would get wrecked.
I mean hellions are annoying, sure, but mutalisks are so good on this map that Terran really needs to invest in a lot of AA.
I don't quite understand your reasoning for ZvP on Oasis. Warp gate all-ins aren't easy for toss with the super long rush distance and Zerg's ability to really put up spine crawlers like crazy when they see forces build up. It is so easy to get vision on this map as Zerg that losing to warp gate all-ins has to be a blunder on the Zerg's part. I just can't stop myself from disagreeing with this.. With mech see TLO vs SEN game 6 kaspersky cupAnd desert oasis is like the warpgate all-in heaven.. You have lot of places to hide those pylons on the edges.. So just because Sen lost on Desert Oasis - which he did because of 2 huge blunders (not scouting proxy fax and letting hellions into his main) the map is imbalanced :/ you can so easily scout all the places on desert oasis with 4 zerglings if you aren't just to lazy to do it. And saying a map is bad for zerg because many Protoss think you can only win using an all-in strategy seems rather strange.
You said:
1. Mech would just get wrecked by mutas on desert oasis..
2. It is so easy to get vision on this map as Zerg that losing to warp gate all-ins has to be a blunder on the Zerg's part
I disagree because:
1. Yes mutas are great on this map but to say mech would just get wrecked.. its not something a few marines turrets and thors cant fix and it could be pulled off by many players. I gave only one example only because posting too many links is a waste of time (BTW after the helion harrass Sen got back in the game by countering with his speedling harrass if you did not notice).
2. The point is not whether the warp gate-allin was scouted or not.. Its still strong because it gives the protoss the mobility to engage different areas and constantly reinforce their troops without worrying about rush distance and thus having advantage on this large map. By making zerg players build spine crawlers you are already damaging the zerg player by making him lose workers, larvae and minerals,,,
I dont think that the map is bad for zerg.. Actually I think it favors Z
I just disagree with your points
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Sometimes, I actually just think Artosis is trolling.
I really like him, and he's an awesome player, but as MorroW said he tends to get very onesided and defensive of his own race in balance discussions.
Seriously, this article is so biased it's insane.
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good points, but was an article needed to say that blizzard maps are bad?
you could say yes because they're currently in the ladder, but still
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i think this is bullshit ³³.
no symmetric maps is imbalanced at all. you just have different play styles on each.
longer scout distances for overlords on kulas ? OH NOOO... learn to handle it.. starcraft 2 isnt chess where you have the same gameplay each round.
remember the broodwar map blaze (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/99_Neo%20Blaze.jpg) or dire straits (http://classic.battle.net/images/battle/scc/lp/4/xd.jpg) ?
i rebuild those both maps for sc2 and i wouldnt say they are imbalanced for any race.
with terran on blaze you can easily drop the cliffs while you enemy have to react. so what ? it still isnt imbalanced, just a different gameplay experience.
dont have to say a word to dire (island map).
so please stop whining about imbaness of starcraft, couse no one of "us" has the skill/experience /authority to say something about balancing.
thank you
ps: sorry for my bad english
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I slightly agree, but whenever there is imbalance against one kind of play, I feel that it leaves room for new and creative tactics, for example, have you seen the nydus worm play by zergs on oasis? It Just opens your eyes because it ABUSES the idea of how far away the main and naturals are.
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I was thinking about writing something comprehensive like this, but didnt find the time, i'm glad someone more capable done it instead
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oh no! blizzard maps are not balanced? like in every single blizzard game that came out? no offense, but i thought thats common knowledge. i mean, its only the truth in your article but i dont think that we have to play these maps very long....
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On June 19 2010 21:20 gillon wrote:
Sometimes, I actually just think Artosis is trolling.
I really like him, and he's an awesome player, but as MorroW said he tends to get very onesided and defensive of his own race in balance discussions.
Seriously, this article is so biased it's insane.
I second this. It feels like you and idra just cry imba vs Zerg, and wait, you both play Zerg! Who woulda thought? Heh, if Terran is so extravagant then why don't you show us why and play them? Show us how mech should be played. /waits.
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Well written Artosis / IdrA. These maps do seem to be extremely T>Z ... well just as the matchup is right now.
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Right, i'm guessing i'll get a temp ban for this post for bashing with very little constructive criticism but i'll try my best.
I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, Artosis, but you come off with a terribly elitist attitude in pretty much every post you make with unneccesary quotes like "This article only addresses top level play" Of course it does, everyone knows it does, because every time you speak you bring up that you're the second best player in NA and EU since everyone else is terrible apart from the koreans.
Now, from what i can see, the thing you talk about second most often, is how weak zerg is. I probably should have read more than the first 3-4 paragraphs but i got the gist of it from there on out.
From what i know, your reasoning behind zerg being weak is that other people playing Toss and Terran just aren't as good as you, yet they still win. Due to their races being more powerful, and the maps being in their favor?
This sounds stupid and pretty immature to me, just wait, Artosis, before calling everyone else terrible. We are in beta, as people have said above me, stuff like this needs time before people can devise strategies to counter what you have talked about. You even mentioned that DesertO used to be Zerg favored, now it's not. That's how starcraft works. Counter's are devised over time, just wait patiently or even try and work out a counter yourself.
Guess i'll be back in a week or so when my bans over lol.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
to address a few of the stupid posts in here before it gets too gross:
1) I said that I cannot address ZvP balance on Desert BECAUSE EVERYONE RUSHES. Lots of you decided that I said it was Protoss favored. Can't even begin to fathom how you decided this.
2) This is "The Worst of the Worst" FOR ZERG. That's what I said, that's what it is. To call it whining is ignorant.
3) IdrA and I have been practicing a bit with Terran. We might switch back. We might not. We'll see. People who "call me out" on made-up biases are out of line.
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i agree with kulas, but on DO, terran actually feels much harder if the game goes beyond 2 base.
in the 2 base game im generally able to get 2-3 tanks + 12-15 marines and push to my nat, easy as pie. you bunk up and siege behind the bunkers and then just turret your main and leave a few scattered tanks within to help defend on doom drops. i can push and contain on 2 base and fight effectively. but if the game runs long into a 3+ base game for terran, the distances even on the closest blue mineral patch for an immobile meching terran against heavy muta + drops makes it incredibly hard on me to be able to defend my main and 3rd because of the obscure layout and distance
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Every interview/article I read about Artosis, he always talk about how weak zerg is and how strong all other races are. Then he interviews Tester and make a new thread with the subject that he thinks terran is the strongest race. If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads.
While I do agree that zerg is the weakest race right now, I think that a person with such a respected name as Artosis should be a lot more objective, and not be too biased. And zerg definately has the advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:08 Hider wrote:
Every interview/article I read about Artosis, he always talk about how weak zerg is and how strong all other races are. Then he interviews Tester and make a new thread with the subject that he thinks terran is the strongest race. If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads.
While I do agree that zerg is the weakest race right now, I think that a person with such a respected name as Artosis should be a lot more objective, and not be too biased. And zerg definately has the advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map.
"If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads."
Thank you, Mr. 74 posts, for coming here and letting everyone know that I am biased and withholding interviews due to conflicting opinions with myself.
"And zerg definately has teh advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map."
ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation.
User was warned for this post
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I agree on most of what you wrote. As a random player i hate getting kulas ravine as a zerg and as for desert oasis it's basically game over if you get p against zerg
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Artosis it may have been more helpful to address the maps with all the matchups. With the amount of players you can contact you could have easily made a full list.
I agree with Kulas and IZ. Both those maps are just silly and you make VERY GOOD points.
Edit: I misread your OP a bit, but this shoudl still be relevant to the ZvP matchup on DO.
(Edited out). You say Protoss only rushes, it probably has something to do with it being like IMPOSSIBLE to expand for Protoss. Protoss is very immobile at the early game (unless they rush) and it's very hard for a player to have their army cover thier main and an expansion. With creative building placement however the Toss can normally wall from their ramp all the way until their second nexus (very Metalopolis like). On DO this is impossible.
So either you have to leave your natural wide open and undefended or you have to leave your main very open to Nydus worm's. Combine that with the Zerg having a free maphack with their initial overlord for a long time and it seems to be unbalanced for Protoss.
I'm not going to come in here and claim to know Terran enough to comment, but I know I hated DO for PvZ.
But I will definitely agree that all 3 of those maps SUCK and need to be removed....
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On June 19 2010 22:13 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 22:08 Hider wrote:
Every interview/article I read about Artosis, he always talk about how weak zerg is and how strong all other races are. Then he interviews Tester and make a new thread with the subject that he thinks terran is the strongest race. If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads.
While I do agree that zerg is the weakest race right now, I think that a person with such a respected name as Artosis should be a lot more objective, and not be too biased. And zerg definately has the advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map. "If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads." Thank you, Mr. 74 posts, for coming here and letting everyone know that I am biased and withholding interviews due to conflicting opinions with myself. "And zerg definately has teh advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map." ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation.
Even if my opinion doesnt count, I agree with him that you are biased most of the time when you talk about zerg. You produced a nice effort to make your point, but you could be a little bit more objective. Then again I'm not saying I know better than you but the whole post had a feeling of whining behind it in my opinion.
And I agree that those maps suck. But not to the point where zerg can't win at all.
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On June 19 2010 22:07 Artosis wrote:
to address a few of the stupid posts in here before it gets too gross:
1) I said that I cannot address ZvP balance on Desert BECAUSE EVERYONE RUSHES. Lots of you decided that I said it was Protoss favored. Can't even begin to fathom how you decided this.
2) This is "The Worst of the Worst" FOR ZERG. That's what I said, that's what it is. To call it whining is ignorant.
3) IdrA and I have been practicing a bit with Terran. We might switch back. We might not. We'll see. People who "call me out" on made-up biases are out of line.
"Because of the map's size, the main bases' orientation and the distances from main to neutral, Protoss players almost always Warp Gates all-in on this map. Nearly every high-level game consists of Protoss attempting to hit Zerg before Hydralisks come out, force field the ramp and kill the natural."
Sounds unfathomable to think you're saying Desert Oasis is Protoss favored. Seeing as apparently "super high level" game always ends with Toss winning.
Yeah, it's for Zerg, a 6 year old could understand you're making another post about Zerg's weakness.
I don't think calling something what it is, is ignorant. It's more along the lines of stating the obvious.
I'd love to see you switch to Terran. I'm willing to put money up that you either switch back to Zerg, or make some posts stating how underpowered terran is.
Admittedly, i have gotten nonconstructive and as you say the post will get gross if i carry on. But i still stick to what i said in my original post, and ill stay out of ur way from here on out  GL with starcraft II
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