EPTMap Balance - The Worst of the Worst - Page 18
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
That being said, it's also really hard to comment on what Artosis actually said. If you post any of your own experiences, the rebuttal will be that you're not a top player and that you don't know what you're talking about, or that Idra & Artosis himself disagree. That argument has already been made by Artosis here: On June 19 2010 22:13 Artosis wrote: ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation. The only comments you can make is if it's statistical arguments against what Artosis is saying, or if you're a top player. If you're just someone talking about their own experiences, that doesn't matter, unless you're supporting the OP, in which case we can probably let that slide. | ||
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
What everyone doesn't seem to realize is that SC2 is NOT SC:BW. It also HASN"T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET. Any discussion by anyone (besides Blizzard themselves) is completely ignorant. At this point in the game nobody has fleshed out ANY single build to its fullest potential. In case y'all don't remember, Brood War had many many many times where 1 race would dominate, and then someone would come around and revoutionize the matchup creatively and it would switch. Boxer started playing Terran when it was seen as underpowered. Savior (cheating asshole) was practically unbeatable until Bisu 3-0 him. Very rarely was there "balance" at any point in Starcraft history. And remember people, Blizzard has all the race stats globally, and divided by skill, matchup, region, server, etc. They can see if there is a discrepency in win rates, but the rates are different on different leagues and servers, like in the Asia sector where Zerg is dominating. Think back to TvZ in Brood War. There was so much tactical positioning and response to the enemy it was insane. Terran opens with MMF, which have their own micro idosyncracies, but then the Zerg respond with Lurkers. Lurkers normally pwned marines. Then we learned to micro the marines. Then Zerg throws down Dark Swarms, then we learn to tactically retreat our forces in battle. Or the Zerg learns Muta Micro and learns lots of delaying tactics. For instance, a zergling outside the natural tells you when T moves out, and you throw down sunken colonies only after. None of these ideas where around when SC was young, they came over a long learning period of years. SC 1 was very unbalanced until a good while after it came out, it wasn't until 1.08/1.09 that the game got really competitive. That's because strategy games have to evolve to even work. Blizzard had no idea how the balance was going to work out when they started SC 1. They let the community figure everything out. And that's the point. We have yet to figure out the many many aspects of SC2. All of Starcraft has EVOLVED over time. And since SC2 IS NOT SC:BW, no player anywhere, no matter his rank, can yet speak about issues like this. Even Artosis and Idra, with their heavy practice in their builds, still have yet to explore the entirety of their own builds, because SC2 will continue to evolve and throw new challenges towards their builds. I have a lot of respect for Artosis and Idra's skill in SC Brood War, but Brood War skill does not make you an expert at SC2. We have to look at SC2 play only to talk about SC2, and completely ignore any leftover biases or tendencies from Brood War, because they don't apply. And all of us are only playing a BETA, there is not enough SC2 data around for there to be any experts yet. The people that know most about the balance right now are the Blizzard testers. They're the only ones that can actually be objective at this point in development, since SC2 is still in utero. The idea that people are already so knowledgeable about a game(which isn't even FINISHED yet) that they are completely infallible and make absolutist claims (Z cannot beat T on DO), is completely insane. | ||
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
On June 21 2010 00:08 jamesr12 wrote: How would that solve anything? I'm not on artosis' side, but this is a terrible argument, hypothetically assuming there are balance issues.Artosis why dont you just play terran and dominate everyone if terran is so good and zerg is so bad? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
edit : I don't agree with most of the stuff you write in the article artosis no offense, I think zerg has to show good play in order to win games sure, but the potential with zerg isn't lower than other races on these maps (excluding kulas ) , Zerg can win , they just have to pull off good and smart moves. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 23:33 Rabiator wrote: By people getting used to it - and other "totally different" maps - and having different strategies for them. This however needs TIME and WILLINGNESS TO ADAPT. The first we didnt have yet and the second is something our Korean Zergy friends (and many other Oasis- and Ravine-haters) apparently do not possess. I think there is a saying flying around this forum that there is no broken unit, you just need to learn how to beat it. The same thing could be said for maps. While a map might be ugly or uninspiring to play on, that is a personal preference and I guarantee you that there are Zerg players out there who have nothing against Desert Oasis or Kulas Ravine. It is just our "Korean pro gamers" who are in love with their mechanics and who like to do the same things every time, who have trouble being creative on such a map. No, Desert Oasis needs to be tweaked. The natural is placed in the most obnoxious way imaginable, meaning T and P can't rush unless they do something really cheesy and they can't take a fast expansion because it's impossible to defend. So you cheese or you die. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
or you down thumb the map and never play it again. xD | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:23 FrozenArbiter wrote: So you cheese or you die. This is the truth right here. I tried every conceivable way to play DO straight up before I realized the only real way to play it was to cheese. Again there is no way possible you can defend your natural unless you are so far ahead it really does not matter anyways. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On June 21 2010 00:07 Salv wrote: I think it's entirely fair to be criticizing Artosis for this post. Personally, I feel Artosis is known for having the opinion that the race he plays is the weakest and all the other races are stronger and/or have imbalanced units/strategies whatever. I would suspect that if you looked at all of the articles written by Artosis about balance, the vast, vast majority would be favourable towards Zerg in SC2, or Terran in SC1. The point is that I don't think Artosis is objective at all, so when ever I read any thing by him, I'm generally suspicious. That being said, it's also really hard to comment on what Artosis actually said. If you post any of your own experiences, the rebuttal will be that you're not a top player and that you don't know what you're talking about, or that Idra & Artosis himself disagree. That argument has already been made by Artosis here: The only comments you can make is if it's statistical arguments against what Artosis is saying, or if you're a top player. If you're just someone talking about their own experiences, that doesn't matter, unless you're supporting the OP, in which case we can probably let that slide. I really don't agree with you, Artosis busts his ass to go around and get opinions/interviews with people, and do write ups. Someone did say there should have been a bigger discussion in a state of the game cast or something and I agree, but saying Artosis is favoring Zerg and pushing these articles for his own race is non-sense. He obviously understands, experienced and knows things you do not and you think this is what hes doing. However this was recently one of the more controversial posts because many feel differently about DO but a solution has already been imposed by doing a state of the realm with a few more progamers. These are Artosis's thoughts and experiences from his perspective + others of the same race, this is clearly stated and of course it will sound like hes talking down on Zerg, thats the Race the post is mostly about! And I definitely agree with him on many of the concerns he has addressed, he isn't just making this stuff up. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:41 v3chr0 wrote: I really don't agree with you, Artosis busts his ass to go around and get opinions from people, someone did say there should have been a bigger discussion in a state of the game cast or something and I agree, but saying Artosis is favoring Zerg and pushing these articles for his own race is non-sense. He obviously understands, experienced and knows things you do not and you think this is what hes doing. However this was recently one of the more controversial posts because many feel differently about DO but a solution has already been imposed by doing a state of the realm with a few more progamers. These are Artosis's thoughts and experiences from his perspective + others of the same race, this is clearly stated and of course it will sound like hes talking down on Zerg, thats the Race the post is mostly about! I don't think there is a single person in this thread that does not know Artosis has done leaps and bounds for the community. What I think the collective is upset about is since the release of SCII most of Artosis' main written pieces have become increasingly about bitching about how bad Zerg is and how every patch and well everything hurts them and makes them the weakest race in the game. For example this article would not get so much hate if he had consulted someone that was non Zerg. Frankly the old anolgy of "it true cause Idra said it" does not hold water anymore. He's not the top player in SCII and is known for his lack of innovation. As soon as he cannot mass one unit he cries IMBA. Artosis is the fucking man and I love u dude, but the community as a whole seems to be tired of you screaming Zerg are weak. When's the last time you have done any major balance discussion on Protoss? You have access to the same people in the community as me (ie: everyone) so use it. This week when we do the big map breakdown cast I'm planning I will include all Terran, Protoss, and Zerg. To get two Zerg players together (that play together non stop and have almost mirror styles) is not a good poll. You should look to include other players such as members of .Root, EG, Liquid, etc..... Again I love Artosis and watch everything he puts out for the community more than once but I feel this is what the community (me included) is really trying to say. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:49 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I don't think there is a single person in this thread that does not know Artosis has done leaps and bounds for the community. What I think the collective is upset about is since the release of SCII most of Artosis' main written pieces have become increasingly about bitching about how bad Zerg is and how every patch and well everything hurts them and makes them the weakest race in the game. For example this article would not get so much hate if he had consulted someone that was non Zerg. Frankly the old anolgy of "it true cause Idra said it" does not hold water anymore. He's not the top player in SCII and is known for his lack of innovation. As soon as he cannot mass one unit he cries IMBA. Artosis is the fucking man and I love u dude, but the community as a whole seems to be tired of you screaming Zerg are weak. When's the last time you have done any major balance discussion on Protoss? You have access to the same people in the community as me (ie: everyone) so use it. This week when we do the big map breakdown cast I'm planning I will include all Terran, Protoss, and Zerg. To get two Zerg players together (that play together non stop and have almost mirror styles) is not a good poll. You should look to include other players such as members of .Root, EG, Liquid, etc..... Again I love Artosis and watch everything he puts out for the community more than once but I feel this is what the community (me included) is really trying to say. Yea I can understand that, I felt this way after listening to many of the responds to this post, I just think people are being way too hostile towards it. He plays Zerg and I would expect him to do stuff based around that, but I do agree that he should have (more of)other players (other races) opinions in the posts to make it not seem so 1 sided. In the end though, Zerg and other things needs attention so I see the point of his posts even though it can sound biased, I trust he isn't falsifying his information so I draw my own conclusions and I happen to agree with most of it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9372 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:41 v3chr0 wrote: I really don't agree with you, Artosis busts his ass to go around and get opinions/interviews with people, and do write ups. Someone did say there should have been a bigger discussion in a state of the game cast or something and I agree, but saying Artosis is favoring Zerg and pushing these articles for his own race is non-sense. He obviously understands, experienced and knows things you do not and you think this is what hes doing. However this was recently one of the more controversial posts because many feel differently about DO but a solution has already been imposed by doing a state of the realm with a few more progamers. These are Artosis's thoughts and experiences from his perspective + others of the same race, this is clearly stated and of course it will sound like hes talking down on Zerg, thats the Race the post is mostly about! And I definitely agree with him on many of the concerns he has addressed, he isn't just making this stuff up. The main problem is not that Artosis thinks Desert Oasis is a bad map for zerg. That is a matter of opinion, and I and many other disagree with him in this view, but ok, we can't all agree. However the main problem IMO is that Artosis lately has done a poor job in the role of being a journalist. Every thread he makes has been directly og indirectly stating that zerg is too weak and other races too strong. Or that the other races are not played correct, and if played correct would do much better. A good journalist however, would realize at this time that he had too much focus on the weakness of zerg. And even though he may be correct, he should realize that he is beginning to lose credibility. So when planning to make some articles about the current state of the beta, he should not have started with an article about the weakness of zerg on 3 maps, but should have started with an article discussing bad maps of the other races, or at least written very clearly that in the next article he will analyze the maps in which zerg are too strong, or the maps in which terran/protoss are too weak. | ||
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:06 Nexic wrote: How would that solve anything? I'm not on artosis' side, but this is a terrible argument, hypothetically assuming there are balance issues. the point is if he did play terran he wouldnt suddenly dominate because the balence issues are not nearly as bad as he makes them seem | ||
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Zhek
Canada342 Posts
On June 21 2010 00:08 jamesr12 wrote: Artosis why dont you just play terran and dominate everyone if terran is so good and zerg is so bad? On June 19 2010 22:07 Artosis wrote: 3) IdrA and I have been practicing a bit with Terran. We might switch back. We might not. We'll see. People who "call me out" on made-up biases are out of line. post #33. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:41 v3chr0 wrote: I really don't agree with you, Artosis busts his ass to go around and get opinions/interviews with people, and do write ups. Someone did say there should have been a bigger discussion in a state of the game cast or something and I agree, but saying Artosis is favoring Zerg and pushing these articles for his own race is non-sense. He obviously understands, experienced and knows things you do not and you think this is what hes doing. However this was recently one of the more controversial posts because many feel differently about DO but a solution has already been imposed by doing a state of the realm with a few more progamers. These are Artosis's thoughts and experiences from his perspective + others of the same race, this is clearly stated and of course it will sound like hes talking down on Zerg, thats the Race the post is mostly about! And I definitely agree with him on many of the concerns he has addressed, he isn't just making this stuff up. Like ICCup.Diamond & Hider said, this has nothing to do with Artosis doing a lot for the community. Clearly there are a lot of people with the opinion that Artosis is far too biased towards his own race, which I personally find irritating when others and himself insist that he is being objective. This is a general complaint, as maybe Artosis will release another article detailing maps that Zerg is too strong on, but the overwhelming majority of Artosis' posts and articles always seem to favour Zerg if it's SC2 or Terran if it's SC1. It's a legitimate gripe. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
It's pretty much a general conclusion that a couple of zergs have come up with - which by all means everyone is entitled to do so, and are sharing their view with others. People are seeing this as whine, or simply disagreeing with what is written because - something different happens to them. This article - along with the future few (which are going to talk about zerg's stronger maps) are all going to hit areas that both Artosis and Idra have touched on, and probaly more zerg players and are gonna share their experiences/views with others. I'm quite happy to read this from the other side - although i personally don't agree with every point made i do find it interesting. What people need to stop doing is seeing this article as a whinefest or what ever, i found it pretty nice seeing it from the other side of the table (a zerg's POV) and while i do like discussing stuff, alot of people failed to see the point, Maybe releasing an article on zerg's weaker maps first was a mistake - and should of maybe talked about 1 bad map, and 1 good map for zerg each week to look less biased or what ever - to cause less problems with viewers. This article was to share with others what zerg players have came to the conclusion over on certain maps - with fairly detailed reasons why, i'm pretty thankful, while some things like DO i would always class as a zerg map - i can some what see it from the other side. People need to stop being so heavy handed with their judgements and opinions - if someone chooses to share something, which he has also talked with friends, top level gamers about then by all means. If i chose to share my opinions - i wouldn't want this kind of response purely because some people disagree with what was said - this is what the beta was for after all, if everybody stayed silent - the game would of advanced on a set of foundations made of badness. People seem to forget that. | ||
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haitike
Spain2711 Posts
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metasonic
United States115 Posts
On June 21 2010 01:06 Nexic wrote: How would that solve anything? I'm not on artosis' side, but this is a terrible argument, hypothetically assuming there are balance issues. I think his point is that there aren't that many balance issues and Artosis needs to stop whining. Maybe it would solve something if Artosis played terran and got his ass handed to him. | ||
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