EPTMap Balance - The Worst of the Worst - Page 3
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
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Heat_023
Canada160 Posts
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that this thread is futile. I think that my point is that imbalance maybe isn't that evil, at the very least you could say that it's "part of Starcraft's DNA". Fortunatly, even if general imbalance will never be cured, these particular imbalance issues will always be pushed back by ingeniousness and patches. Sometimes I just loooove chess  . | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
)Your counter-argument can never be a name, "idra" will never be a suffiecient proof that your opinion is right... I think TLO was spot on, thor drops are not that difficult to stop, and is queite all-in-ish strat to pull, you sacrifice map presence and allow nonstop drone pumpage and safe expand + all scouting information for one allbeit strong harass tool. But Zerglings + queen is enough to deal with it. Desert oasis is my favorite map to play Z on, I can expand that creep all over the map so easily and all expansions have huuuge open areas taht benefit Zerg, and all expansions have crappy/no ledge that can be abused. I can easily controll the centre of the map with xelnagas, much easier than any P or T can atleast. The big threats to Zerg on maps like kulas ravine or incinerationzone are tanks/collosus/hightemplars, all of these units are much much weaker on big wide open maps, I dont feel qualified to make claims on racial balance atm, never won a tournament etc (yet) but I feel confident enough to claim that desert oasis is the best map for Z in the current beta. oh and the amount of posts a person has does not reflect his value as a person or devalue his opinions, manner up. | ||
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earky
United States87 Posts
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Katkishka
United States658 Posts
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StormsInJuly
Sweden165 Posts
Here's something artosis or idra have never ever said: "Damn, I lost that game because I got outplayed -- balance probably didn't factor in here" | ||
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yomi
United States773 Posts
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:33 yomi wrote: Don't forget all the maps are encircled by a huge area of impassable terrain aka war3 forest aka air is overpowered. Really none of the ladder maps can be salvaged for competitive play. Blizz shouldn't even bother trying to fix them they are so far gone. How can you make 10 maps and not a single one where you can fight in the open instead of a choke point? I think metalopolis is a very good map, the rest not so much  | ||
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earky
United States87 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:33 Sunny Afternoon wrote: Artosis, seriously, if you're getting this much negative feedback maybe you should look into it rather than calling posts stupid and discriminating against someone with 74 posts. Hey, we all know that post count clearly is equal to IQ points IRL. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:33 yomi wrote: Don't forget all the maps are encircled by a huge area of impassable terrain aka war3 forest aka air is overpowered. Really none of the ladder maps can be salvaged for competitive play. Blizz shouldn't even bother trying to fix them they are so far gone. How can you make 10 maps and not a single one where you can fight in the open instead of a choke point? There's a COUPLE good ones. Metalopolis and Lost Temple come to mind. But yea Blizz historically sucks at making maps. I think the issue is they need to start acknowledging the awesome player made maps like Match Point. | ||
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-Desu-
Turkey173 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:13 Artosis wrote: "If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads." Thank you, Mr. 74 posts, for coming here and letting everyone know that I am biased and withholding interviews due to conflicting opinions with myself. "And zerg definately has teh advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map." ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation. MorroW's stand was similar to Mr. 74 Post's opinions but you picked Mr.74's post to address? | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thing about thor drops on Desert Oasis is the ledge behind the main's mineral line. You can vacillate between high and low ground, pretty much nulling those "12 zerglings" TLO mentioned. But that's about it in the thor department. Vikings are just really good map control. It doesn't matter what map they're on. Kulas is a retarded map as is. It isn't even debatable. To lose over and over ZvT when you're in full control of the game to gimmicky shit is a wash. Maps shouldn't disfavor one race that badly. IZ was bad, too. But it's out so who cares. I don't even like Steppes all that much. The good ones are Meta and Temple, and even Temple is slightly Terran favored. Metas a Zerg comfort zone but since every race can grab their side of the map fairly easily it's not the biggest deal in the world. Tired of these short air distance maps. Scrap scrap station imo. I honestly like a ton of maps the community has made. And we can only hope that the next ladder pool provides more balanced, more interesting maps. | ||
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zedrOne
France471 Posts
the fact that you can"t play your typical built doesn't means it's imbalance. i remember bloodBath on SC1 (even before BW) with all zerg saying it's the map where thay can"t loose (they all 6-pool) and then player learn to use SCV do defend.. and then terran where the "best race for bloodbath". It's maybe not a great example, but my point is that even without gameplay or map change the game will evolve, because of the strategy used. I watch some of the best / entertaining match i ever seen on this two map. even with zerg winning ! =) I think maybe people need to be less extrem with this balance point of view... too much "a cliff ! = imbalance ! Terran OP" or " a choke point : = imba ! Terran / protoss OP !" even "rush distance to short, Toss imba !" Blizzard said that Zerg win more on Asia server, Less in US server and almost even on EU... I dont think the conclusion is that Zerg US player are bad, maybe they just need more time to adapt ? maybe they just cry louder ? my2c | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
BTW i was a half-decent Zerg player and Desert Oasis is surely among my 3 least preferred maps, it is really hard and imbalanced. I absolutely can see why terrans and protosses say the same thing, the map's features favor some builds, strategies and tricks, has a tone of abusable stuff on it, almost every player in every matchup can blame the map when he loses, cuz the other one just menaged to abuse it more. it is really fun to watch though cuz players lose from huge advantages or win with unusual cheeses, but to play on it on high level it is a pain in the ass I really dislike that the balancing is done based on results on terrible maps, because if you could somehow menage that the winrates would reach 50:50 in every matchup, the game still would be quite broken, because on normal maps (which will be made as soon as professional leauges and competitions begin) most of the stuff wont work with which players win a tones of games, thus screwing up the statistics. Many ppl say Metalo and LT are the 2 best maps in the pool, i agree with it, but we have to admit that we say it cuz they are the most BW promap-like. So more new style maps with strange terrain features shouldnt be excluded, but the current ones are really bad, and the game wont be balanced when it comes out, in a huge part because of this. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:45 Geo.Rion wrote: just LOL on the posts bashing on Artosis coming from <200 posts users. Artosis' viewpoit is really legit, if you want to answer to it, take Morrow as an example, a very good Terran player, and doesnt try to dispatch Artosis' writeup entirely but adds his ideas and corrections, aknowledging at least the TvZ balance issues. (ok maybe im idealizing it, but u get the point) BTW i was a half-decent Zerg player and Desert Oasis is surely among my 3 least preferred maps, it is really hard and imbalanced. I absolutely can see why terrans and protosses say the same thing, the map's features favor some builds, strategies and tricks, has a tone of abusable stuff on it, almost every player in every matchup can blame the map when he loses, cuz the other one just menaged to abuse it more. . again with the post count..what does that have to do with _anything at all_ ? the amount you hang on TL equalls your skilllevel, is this what you are implying here? in that case you are sadly misstaken... you can take your 26xx posts and think you are a progamer because of it but it doesnt mean you are better than anyone with say..127 posts. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:13 Artosis wrote: "If he had answered zerg, I am sure we would not have seen any new threads." Thank you, Mr. 74 posts, for coming here and letting everyone know that I am biased and withholding interviews due to conflicting opinions with myself. "And zerg definately has teh advantage over terran on desert oasis as mech is extremely difficult to play on this map." ah ok, thanks, IdrA and I got it wrong. All makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe he has - I don't see how pure mech is even viable on desert oasis? There is NO WAY to safely take a 3rd without opening yourself up to counter attack, and the distances are HUGE. Seriously, explain what pure mech you are using on desert oasis to make it imbalanced... I don't get how viking builds are hard to defend on DO, I find them way weaker there than on Scrap Station. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
"There's a COUPLE good ones. Metalopolis and Lost Temple come to mind. But yea Blizz historically sucks at making maps. I think the issue is they need to start acknowledging the awesome player made maps like Match Point." blizzard maps are soo much better than most of the iccup crap that gets churned out. every single iccup map is the same. each starting base has an expo or two perfectly defendable by 1 easy choke/ramp. then add a little python or decal in the middle and bingo another sick map. seriously all iccup maps are macro-fuck-orientated and end up playing the same every game. i think early in the beta many were complaining that blizzards sc2 maps were "made too well." ...................... i would like to see more maps like "desolation" and "breaking point" maps that actually were fun to play. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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Legion616
Sweden6 Posts
On June 19 2010 20:52 Prog wrote: Doesn't anyone else think the ZvP dessert oasis analysis is flawed? I mean, when nearly every P plays an all-in strategy the most plausible explanation is that P can't win in a longer macro game on this map. That's exactly what he meant, he made it pretty clear imo that Protoss are forced to play an early all-in warpgate strategy or they will quickly fall behind. And for everyone saying Artosis is biased and defends Zerg all the time, isn't that how it should work? I mean, that is his race, he can only make claims about this race since this is the only one he is focusing on. This is supposed to be a discussion, in this case Artosis felt there was a map imbalance for his race, he makes an article and people can agree / disagree and voice their concerns. Top Terran players can make their own arguments here as to why they feel something is inaccurate. The game is still very "young" so no one can't possible be "right". All you can do is discuss how you perceive the game and talk about what you think and voice your opinions. Zerg players will have opinions from a Zerg viewpoint, obviously. It might be a bit arrogant when he says "IdrA can back me up" but you have to realize that the results speak for themselves. They ARE two pro-gamers at the top of the division that have dedicated their lives by moving to Korea and playing SC / SC2. It seems that so many players get offended by this. I just feel so many posts are trying to discredit Artosis on a personal level, which does not belong in any discussion. Look at TLO's post, he simply had a counter argument about the article and did not get angry or frustrated at Artosis himself. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
On June 19 2010 22:55 FrozenArbiter wrote: Maybe he has - I don't see how pure mech is even viable on desert oasis? There is NO WAY to safely take a 3rd without opening yourself up to counter attack, and the distances are HUGE. Seriously, explain what pure mech you are using on desert oasis to make it imbalanced... seriously intressted in this myself, every time I tried pure mech on this map I was beaten down so hard because of the open terrain and vast distances. When I took home a win on this map against a high lvl player Z , it was in 99.9% of the cases with a composition of infantry with a few tanks sprinkled in there. Like gretorp also agreed with the fact taht open spaced maps favor MMM ball while closed of narrowchoked ones benefit mech play, seems only logical. | ||
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